Race prospective from America to France and the lefts culture clash

Terminal Blue

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Black British form about 3% of the population. Is that really a "sizable minority?"
i mean, that's nearly 2 million people. There are many European countries with fewer people in total than there are black people in the UK. It's also several times the proportion of Jews who were considered a sizeable minority in Germany in 1933. Finally, the black population of the UK is fairly concentrated within particular areas. The UK may be a relatively small country, but it's still big enough to comprise distinct geographical regions with their own demography.

The USA has an exceptionally large black population, for fairly obvious historical reasons. The majority of the black population of the US lives in the southern states, again for obvious historical reasons. This doesn't mean that only areas in the US with large proportion of black residents have to deal with the issues raised by black civil rights advocates, and the same is true of the UK. The black community in the UK is a distinct community with its own history and its own issues distinct from other communities, and the UK has its own history of anti-black racism.

But on the other hand, black people are not the only ethnic minority in the UK. The largest non-white ethnic minority in the UK are south asians, again for historical reasons. There are forms of racism which are particular to black and to south asian communities, but there are also forms of racism which they both experience. The politics and activism of black civil rights activists in the USA is not only of interest to black people, but to an extent is relevant to any ethnic minority which suffers racism.

Ultimately, to demand some kind of complete ideological purity from people who ultimately have endured similar forms of discrimination and marginalization is misguided and misleading. British people are not so special that our racism can only be understood with from a uniquely British perspective. It's mostly just the same shit with a different accent.
 

Specter Von Baren

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This is arguably a problem in Sweden, where both sides of the political spectrum were quick to adopt BLM and anti-BLM rhetoric in the weeks after it started in the USA. And while Sweden has problems with racism still and occasionally with cop brutality, it is nowhere near the level of the USA so it all becomes silly when various pundits try to make it seem as if Sweden has a police force hunting down black people for sport or as if Swedish police needs to be allowed more leeway in using violence, when they rarely have to escalate beyond holds today.
Golly! You mean the country has people wildly exaggerating the situation with the police!? I've never seen something like that before since I live in America where everything negative said about the police is 100% accurate. Goodness gracious.
 

Specter Von Baren

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I think that's the core achievement of Starbucks, and more so its second-rate UK imitatori, Costa. It's not that people who go there particularly like coffee, it's that coffee has been very effectively marketed to them as exciting, modern and aspirational and it's full of satisfying fats, so they'll fork out a gazillion pounds for their mildly coffee-flavoured milk drinks.

It also annoys me enormously because the absurd prices and systems for coffee mean the same cafes grotesquely overprice tea despite not even making it properly. Pour in boiling water, brew for 3-5 mins (2 if you're in a hurry), don't put the milk in until it's brewed: it's not tricky. There is no hell deep and torturous enough for people who mess up a good cup of tea, especially if they charge you for it.
People are lazy and want caffiene. That's the answer. There was a KND episode about them trying to blow up a "coffee oil rig" because it essentially was the power source for adults. Even now I feel like that episode is more on point than one may think.

Also your comment about tea is very British of you.

EDIT: To go into more detail, coffee isn't big because if the practices of Starbucks, coffee is big because people want fast energy to get through the day. The practices of Starbucks are just why it is the king of coffee rather than someone else.
 
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Agema

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EDIT: To go into more detail, coffee isn't big because if the practices of Starbucks, coffee is big because people want fast energy to get through the day. The practices of Starbucks are just why it is the king of coffee rather than someone else.
There's basically about as much caffeine in tea as in coffee, but because the caffeine from coffee is absorbed faster, it's gives a larger and faster "hit". But really, I don't think it's much about caffeine, because caffeine just isn't that potent. Well, maybe some of the really high octane energy drinks, plus all the other shit they shovel into it. They sell a vision to people to start their day with a bang, and that's a coffee or high energy drink to give people get up and go. And with a bit of luck for companies, get people started and maybe it becomes a routine. It is likely to be more psychological than it is pharmacological: the simple psychological association of a drink with energy makes people think they are more energetic.

This is also the shit about baristas. They are sold as artistans to give us the idea that the coffee is special, crafted: look at the effort that goes into it! In the same way, if you put food on an expensive plate and arrange it neatly, people think it tastes nicer. If you sell someone a $50 per metre gold-plated wire between their hi-fi and speakers instead of a basic copper cable, they're convinced the sound quality is better. It's a marketing trick. We all know deep down most of these baristas aren't highly trained artisans. Once you've poured an espresso shot into a pint of hot milk (especially if plus syrups, chocolate sprinkles), you may as well make the shot with instant coffee granules or just pour some out from a caffetiere. It's theatre. Like the sizing: medium, large, huge (so nothing is "small") and the stupid Italian words (medio, grande, venti or whatever it is) because the Italians are famous for coffee, despite the fact that an actual Italian would rather drink a litre of Venice canal water than a Starbucks. And whilst you're at it, you can also pick up a grotesquely overpriced and distinctly mediocre cookie, traybake or panini.
 

Specter Von Baren

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There's basically about as much caffeine in tea as in coffee, but because the caffeine from coffee is absorbed faster, it's gives a larger and faster "hit". But really, I don't think it's much about caffeine, because caffeine just isn't that potent. Well, maybe some of the really high octane energy drinks, plus all the other shit they shovel into it. They sell a vision to people to start their day with a bang, and that's a coffee or high energy drink to give people get up and go. And with a bit of luck for companies, get people started and maybe it becomes a routine. It is likely to be more psychological than it is pharmacological: the simple psychological association of a drink with energy makes people think they are more energetic.

This is also the shit about baristas. They are sold as artistans to give us the idea that the coffee is special, crafted: look at the effort that goes into it! In the same way, if you put food on an expensive plate and arrange it neatly, people think it tastes nicer. If you sell someone a $50 per metre gold-plated wire between their hi-fi and speakers instead of a basic copper cable, they're convinced the sound quality is better. It's a marketing trick. We all know deep down most of these baristas aren't highly trained artisans. Once you've poured an espresso shot into a pint of hot milk (especially if plus syrups, chocolate sprinkles), you may as well make the shot with instant coffee granules or just pour some out from a caffetiere. It's theatre. Like the sizing: medium, large, huge (so nothing is "small") and the stupid Italian words (medio, grande, venti or whatever it is) because the Italians are famous for coffee, despite the fact that an actual Italian would rather drink a litre of Venice canal water than a Starbucks. And whilst you're at it, you can also pick up a grotesquely overpriced and distinctly mediocre cookie, traybake or panini.
Well people are already moving to energy drinks as apposed to coffee now. I'm not arguing that there isn't a capitalist influence on this, and a negative one at that, but the thing you're talking about with people playing up their job or making their store a place to socialize or be trendy isnt a capitalist thing, we've done this kind of thing since people built buildings in well traveled areas to hawk their wares or get people to sleep at their inns.

What you're trying to attribute to coffee sounds more like the whole history with diamonds and the artificial way they were made to be valuable.

From my perspective, the negative aspect of coffee is the pushing of people to feel the need to gulp down coffee and tea and energy drinks just so they can function in today's workplace. The grinding of people to push themselves to death in an arms race is the capitalist related issue with this.
 

Gordon_4

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People are lazy and want caffiene. That's the answer. There was a KND episode about them trying to blow up a "coffee oil rig" because it essentially was the power source for adults. Even now I feel like that episode is more on point than one may think.

Also your comment about tea is very British of you.

EDIT: To go into more detail, coffee isn't big because if the practices of Starbucks, coffee is big because people want fast energy to get through the day. The practices of Starbucks are just why it is the king of coffee rather than someone else.
Starbucks ain’t the king of coffee down here mate. They got laughed out of Australia within a few years. Fuckin’ McDonalds serves coffee with a better reputation here.
 

Agema

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Well people are already moving to energy drinks as apposed to coffee now. I'm not arguing that there isn't a capitalist influence on this,
Well, I don't think I'm really complaining about capitalism here. It's more that I don't much like certain aspects of an increasingly homogenous global culture.
 

Hawki

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i mean, that's nearly 2 million people. There are many European countries with fewer people in total than there are black people in the UK. It's also several times the proportion of Jews who were considered a sizeable minority in Germany in 1933. Finally, the black population of the UK is fairly concentrated within particular areas. The UK may be a relatively small country, but it's still big enough to comprise distinct geographical regions with their own demography.

The USA has an exceptionally large black population, for fairly obvious historical reasons. The majority of the black population of the US lives in the southern states, again for obvious historical reasons. This doesn't mean that only areas in the US with large proportion of black residents have to deal with the issues raised by black civil rights advocates, and the same is true of the UK. The black community in the UK is a distinct community with its own history and its own issues distinct from other communities, and the UK has its own history of anti-black racism.

But on the other hand, black people are not the only ethnic minority in the UK. The largest non-white ethnic minority in the UK are south asians, again for historical reasons. There are forms of racism which are particular to black and to south asian communities, but there are also forms of racism which they both experience. The politics and activism of black civil rights activists in the USA is not only of interest to black people, but to an extent is relevant to any ethnic minority which suffers racism.

Ultimately, to demand some kind of complete ideological purity from people who ultimately have endured similar forms of discrimination and marginalization is misguided and misleading. British people are not so special that our racism can only be understood with from a uniquely British perspective. It's mostly just the same shit with a different accent.
I'm not sure what any of that has to do with the question as to what counts as a "sizable minority," and whether 3% meets the criteria.

2 million is a fair number of people, but we're talking about percentages, not absolutes.

Starbucks ain’t the king of coffee down here mate. They got laughed out of Australia within a few years. Fuckin’ McDonalds serves coffee with a better reputation here.
Um, you can still find Starbucks in Australia, I'd hardly call them "laughed out." And who the heck goes to McDonalds for coffee?
 

Elijin

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Same problem in Australia. Trump has given legitimacy to the right (and to the incompetent), and activists are protesting about problems they see on TV without considering if they're the same here.
If you're talking about the BLM protests in melb and syd then;
A - We have a significant problem with discrimination against indigenous people by police with a lot of deaths in police custody // prison.
B - Many of those protests specifically mentioned they were being held in solidarity with the US. And global reputation does matter in the first world.

So your comment kind of smacks of the exact thing you're critical of here, supporting or condemning a cause without being knowledgeable on it.
 

Terminal Blue

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I'm not sure what any of that has to do with the question as to what counts as a "sizable minority," and whether 3% meets the criteria.

2 million is a fair number of people, but we're talking about percentages, not absolutes.
I mean, the underlying point which I was hoping you would pick up is that there is no clear "criteria" for what constitutes a sizeable minority, because it's entirely relative. Again, 0.5% of the population of Germany being Jewish in 1933 constituted a sizeable minority. 1% of the Japanese population being Christian constitutes a sizeable minority. The question of when a minority becomes sizeable is a political question, and thus it has no clear answer.

You also seem to have entirely missed the point about regionalism. Again, the US black population is heavily concentrated in the south. There are counties in the southern US where black people are actually the demographic majority. Becuase most of the black population lives in the south, however, that means that proportion of black people living in other states is often much smaller than the US average. In Idaho, for example, less than 1% of the population is black.

Actually, the same is true in the UK. In some London metropolitan boroughs, for example, black people constitute over 20% of the population.

The issues raised by black people in the US are not contingent on their demographic prevalence within the population, but rather on their political significance as a minority that is subject to shared forms of anti-black racism and which plays a particular role in the national consciousness. Just like the US, black people in the UK represent a distinct community, and as a community they are politically significant if only in terms of the way they are treated.
 
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Gordon_4

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I'm not sure what any of that has to do with the question as to what counts as a "sizable minority," and whether 3% meets the criteria.

2 million is a fair number of people, but we're talking about percentages, not absolutes.



Um, you can still find Starbucks in Australia, I'd hardly call them "laughed out." And who the heck goes to McDonalds for coffee?
Quite a lot of people go to Maccas for coffees. And while they've sold it for years, there has been a concerted effort in the last ten years or so to really lift their game. And given the increase in custom they've gotten out of it, it seems to have worked.
 

Elijin

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Quite a lot of people go to Maccas for coffees. And while they've sold it for years, there has been a concerted effort in the last ten years or so to really lift their game. And given the increase in custom they've gotten out of it, it seems to have worked.
This made me curious to where my closest starbucks was, because it's been a while since I noticed one. Answer: I'd have to go interstate. Every single starbucks closed in Western Australia due to lack of ability to compete in the market.

Whereas every maccas has a McCafe, and it is considered 'decent'.

Edit: 54 starbucks, nationally! For a corner store style franchise, that's woeful. I'd definitely agree with the notion they were laughed out.
 
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Gordon_4

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This made me curious to where my closest starbucks was, because it's been a while since I noticed one. Answer: I'd have to go interstate. Every single starbucks closed in Western Australia due to lack of ability to compete in the market.
They exist solely in Victoria, New South Wales and Queensland. There's 54 stores. The least of them are in Victoria, to the surprise of no one.
 

Hawki

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I mean, the underlying point which I was hoping you would pick up is that there is no clear "criteria" for what constitutes a sizeable minority, because it's entirely relative. Again, 0.5% of the population of Germany being Jewish in 1933 constituted a sizeable minority. 1% of the Japanese population being Christian constitutes a sizeable minority. The question of when a minority becomes sizeable is a political question, and thus it has no clear answer.
I already stated that there isn't clear criteria for what counts as sizable, but I'd still argue that none of the percentages you cite would meet the criteria in any reasonable sense of the word. What counts as "sizable" is a mathematical question. If you want to turn it into a political question, then you're going down the path of group rights. Which, I'd argue, is a dangerous one to go down - there's no shortage of examples where that's gone wrong, Lebanon being the most recent example that comes to mind. On the flipside, to address those specific points, it doesn't matter what percentage Jews made of Germany's population in 1933, it doesn't make the anti-semitism against them any less appauling.


You also seem to have entirely missed the point about regionalism.
I didn't miss the point, I ignored the point. It's a non sequitur.

If Group X composes, say, 4% of a country's population, and you say Group X composes 40% of a given area in the country, both statements are true, but they're barely related. You want to talk about the given area, go ahead. But so far, the thread has been on the national level.

They exist solely in Victoria, New South Wales and Queensland. There's 54 stores. The least of them are in Victoria, to the surprise of no one.
I'd have actually thought you'd get the least in Queensland. I mean, presumably, you'd find Starbucks in capital cities, and, well, let's be frank, Brisbane isn't on the same level as Sydney or Melbourne - least as far as population or 'cultural capital' goes.
 

Cheetodust

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We all know deep down most of these baristas aren't highly trained artisans. Once you've poured an espresso shot into a pint of hot milk (especially if plus syrups, chocolate sprinkles), you may as well make the shot with instant coffee granules or just pour some out from a caffetiere. It's theatre. Like the sizing: medium, large, huge (so nothing is "small") and the stupid Italian words (medio, grande, venti or whatever it is) because the Italians are famous for coffee, despite the fact that an actual Italian would rather drink a litre of Venice canal water than a Starbucks. And whilst you're at it, you can also pick up a grotesquely overpriced and distinctly mediocre cookie, traybake or panini.
Ouch, I don't come to your work and slap the dicks out of your mouth...

Although as someone who recently left a growing company you're not entirely wrong. I was the head trainer for what had grown from 2 locations to 6 by the time I left. The issue is with chains. Oddly enough the mediocre tray bakes we started selling for the same price we used to sell pastries from one of the best bakers in ireland was one of the reasons I left.

Also as a side note a starbucks employee isn't a barista. That's not me being snotty or anything, I started in Costa and even they wouldn't hire former starbucks staff. A starbucks machine is entirely automated. The only difference between a starbucks employee and the customer is what side of the counter they're on.

Although you're right about italians not drinking 95% percent of the starbucks menu, the incredibly dark roasted beans and the brew ratio starbucks use is basically what Italians drink as an espresso. Problem is italians are also only willing to pay like 80c for an espresso.
 
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Cheetodust

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Um, you can still find Starbucks in Australia, I'd hardly call them "laughed out." And who the heck goes to McDonalds for coffee?
In one year they closed 70% of their stores only leaving a few in certain regions. Australia the entire goddamned landmass has about as many Starbucks as Dublin City does. I'd say that qualifies as being laughed out. A good chunk of indie coffee shops here are owned by people who trained in Australia.
 

Agema

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Ouch, I don't come to your work and slap the dicks out of your mouth...
Don't worry, lots of other people do!

Also as a side note a starbucks employee isn't a barista. That's not me being snotty or anything, I started in Costa and even they wouldn't hire former starbucks staff. A starbucks machine is entirely automated. The only difference between a starbucks employee and the customer is what side of the counter they're on.
Apologies: to be clear, I think there are lots of cafes - independents and some chains - that take a great deal of pride and have a great deal of passion in what they do and I don't want to diss every person who works in a cafe as a dumb, semi-skilled grunt.

But the Starbucks model vastly overinflates the training and skills of their staff as advertising to create this image of a crafted product, when the very nature of having that many stores is that the set-up must be for a routine product to be easily supplied in a relatively foolproof fashion by staff who may be mediocre. Passion and skill is to be treasured in any job, but it's also uncommon so such people can only support so many cafes. They will tend to gravitate to high standards, lower willingness to compromise, and many of course have a sense of vision and prefer to start their own. Thus for a chain to have a lot of outlets, it necessarily means employing much more average workers and downgrading the skills required and quality accordingly.
 

Thaluikhain

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If you're talking about the BLM protests in melb and syd then;
A - We have a significant problem with discrimination against indigenous people by police with a lot of deaths in police custody // prison.
B - Many of those protests specifically mentioned they were being held in solidarity with the US. And global reputation does matter in the first world.

So your comment kind of smacks of the exact thing you're critical of here, supporting or condemning a cause without being knowledgeable on it.
I wasn't talking about BLM, that (in the general sense) is an issue that can apply in Australia, and hell, worldwide.

With the caveat that people going for B rather than A looks a bit suspicious. US police aren't going to stop murdering black people in the US because people in Australia don't like it. However, people in Australia have more power to put pressure on people in Australia, but the mote in thy brother's eye is always more comfortable to look at. Not to say that showing solidarity is a bad thing, it's just that people often are a bit slow in pointing out their own dirty laundry. That getting rather off-topic, though.