Dr. Fauci “not convinced” coronavirus developed naturally

[Phoenixmgs]

And I say again: cases in the UK are rising. It is a reasonable assumption that the UK and USA have had roughly the same number of infected (similar number of deaths), and they have about the same number vaccinated. So how it this possible if herd immunity has been achieved?

Yes, you did guess. Because you didn't read all the science and there was no consensus amongst the experts. You read some stuff and believed it because you wanted to.

You're boasting about your predictions, here. You can't claim that what you didn't know at the time informed your prediction.

Ah yes: "I said these drugs worked, and the persistent failure to show they do means I'm not wrong".

Is the R0 greater than 1? Also, cases don't matter much anymore with all the vulnerable being vaccinated. Hospitalizations are still going down in the UK. In the US, there's about 10% as many covid transmissions as there are flu transmissions during flu season and the case fatality rate is now basically what the flu is. Thus, there's really no reason to treat covid like covid anymore as far as public health policies are concerned. The US also had a slight uptick in April when people started doing more things as the weather got nicer.

There is literally NOTHING SCIENCE-BASED (during the entire length of the pandemic) that would even hint or allude to covid immunity being short-lived unless you consider bullshit anti-body studies that are rather meaningless as far as immunity goes. The consensus is that immunity it's long-lived.

They weren't my predictions, they were what experts said. I don't know how many times I have to reiterate that.

The persistent failure of the studies to show the treatments don't work. Pretty much all early treatment studies of HCQ shows that it helps.

Paul got the answers he was asking for. He had an agenda, wanted to attack and grandstand for image, so he got pushback. That's the way it works, the way it always works. If he wanted nice, reasonable answers out of Fauci, he could have asked them nicely. But he's aiming to imply the US government funded China making a bioweapon for politics. He can fuck right off.

So because someone does something for politics, it's bad even though it's something that should be done? Giving money to China is just not a good idea to begin with.

Really? Then how did you make any claim about who was better or worse in the first place?

The USA did do badly. Really badly.

Excluding Belgium (for reasons discussed above), the only worse developed countries by official figures are the UK (marginally), Italy and San Marino - the latter of course being a few acres in the middle of Italy, and Italy was first in the firing line, before the rest of Europe or the USA. We then get Spain, Portgual and France (~10% lower), and then it's over 20% lower to the likes of Sweden.

I don't really care who did better or not, but deaths per capita is obviously the most important thing to look at. If the US did so very very very badly and completely incompetent, then how could none of these countries (with better social programs and healthcare) not even do twice as better as the US? The answer is most likely that, again, there wasn't much we really could do as there's plenty of comparisons of places that had heavy restrictions and places that had light restrictions with barely much of a difference between the two (except economically of course).

 

[Phoenixmgs]

So the virus potentially coming from the lab wasn't looked at before because they didn't want Trump to be right...

 

[Trunkage]

It's a litteral Fascist state. The world wouldn't be perfect but it most certainly would be better.
Funny how Israel is getting insulted left and right for killing hundreds of palestinians but China released a pandemic which killed millions and this while they are carrying out a genocide against their muslim minority and we are not allowed to hate the country? Yes China is the country which currently deserves to burn the most and the fact they actually ended up stronger as a consequence of the pandemic they unleashed on this world is disgusting. This is like WW2 but with a Nazi victory.

This is NOT a defense of China. It's pretty bad.

So is Israel, India, Philippines, Bolivia (maybe better) and Russia. And yet, some people only focus on China. Just pointing out that their criticism is virtue signalling and, based on who they choose to criticise, they are not doing it based on morality. Eg. Muslim terorist in China are used as a pawn against the Chinese, while Muslim terrorists in Palestine are used to benefit Israel. I.e. whether you care about Muslims is solely based on which countries they like, not the actual crimes

 

[hanselthecaretaker]

You semi-misunderstand.

A lot of liberals understood and believe this virus was man-made. As a progressive who lost from it, I'm an example of just that sort of thing.

What a lot of liberals wanted to prevent, however, was the cult's knee-jerk reactions to their Puppet Master's words. Covid fueled Racism is a thing. A horrible thing that logical people could sidestep, but we weren't dealing with logical people back then, were we? People who take umbrage over attempts to save their lives.

More over, this is the plague of our lifetimes, and Trump made it into a racial slur. More over did he deny it was anything and pretended it was going to magically fade away and no one was going to suffer because of it.

In short, Trump took every avenue to make this situation the absolute worse it could possibly be. Like I've said before, if Trump took it seriously and did what he could to save lives, I wouldn't have minded if he was re-elected. He would have at least shown leadership. However, he stoked racial hatred and made it policy to put us at risk.
And that's why I took the 'opposite stance'. Because it was the only logical stance to take.

But when politics are in play on the even of an election year, things can kind of get snafu’d. Like why would the CDC of all institutions take a stance that only exacerbated the problem.

Pence ordered borders closed after CDC experts refused

NEW YORK (AP) — Vice President Mike Pence in March directed the nation’s top disease control agency to use its emergency powers to effectively seal the U.S. borders, overruling the agency’s scientists who said there was no evidence the action would slow the coronavirus, according to two former healt

apnews.com

 

[Dwarvenhobble]

I don't have proof it doesn't work, that's true.

But I'd want proof it does, not just the absence of disproof. But that's just me! If the absence of disproof is good enough for you, by all means, enjoy your wasps.

So about the death number data claimed to have been manipulated or people asked to delete it..........

But seriously at the time Hydroxychloroquine was being tested and medical researched thought it might be good. Trump said about how it was being tested and might help fight it and words to the effect of "They have hope this will work". It was being tested and while so far it looks mostly not effective it's taken months for data to emerge that can actually show that thanks in part to studies where they were injecting patients with lethal / near overdose levels of it then wondering why the patients weren't getting better.

 

[Gordon_4]

So the virus potentially coming from the lab wasn't looked at before because they didn't want Trump to be right...

This maybe a revelation to you, but its not CNN's job to determine if COVID-19 was born of circumstance or deliberate laboratory meddling. In a case like this that job is likely going to fall under a combination of independent scientists from WHO and very likely operatives of agencies like the CIA and SIS. Now if CNN ignored that as a potential story angle, well, that's their loss and/or oversight.

 

[Dwarvenhobble]

And I say again: cases in the UK are rising. It is a reasonable assumption that the UK and USA have had roughly the same number of infected (similar number of deaths), and they have about the same number vaccinated. So how it this possible if herd immunity has been achieved?



Yes, you did guess. Because you didn't read all the science and there was no consensus amongst the experts. You read some stuff and believed it because you wanted to.



You're boasting about your predictions, here. You can't claim that what you didn't know at the time informed your prediction.



Ah yes: "I said these drugs worked, and the persistent failure to show they do means I'm not wrong".

Covid-19: 'Very few' Covid hospital patients had two jabs, NHS boss says

NHS boss Chris Hopson adds it is "incredibly striking" how busy hospitals are with non-Covid patients.

www.bbc.co.uk

That's "literal" in the modern sense of meaning "figurative". China is definitely not a fascist state, although it's certainly authoritarian.

I'd go with it's pretty close to one. People opposing the party vanishing. Claims of organ harvesting from political detention centres. Secret Police. Literal social credit systems punishing you for not being a good citizen by buying the right things? At what point do we say there is a line do we have to wait for them to start invasions?

 

[Dwarvenhobble]

This maybe a revelation to you, but its not CNN's job to determine if COVID-19 was born of circumstance or deliberate laboratory meddling. In a case like this that job is likely going to fall under a combination of independent scientists from WHO and very likely operatives of agencies like the CIA and SIS. Now if CNN ignored that as a potential story angle, well, that's their loss and/or oversight.

No it's their job or expected to be to do some of this thing called investigative journalism and help keep the public informed not just try to lie to them and ignore evidence until the claims and evidence comes from a person deemed worthy enough on their own political side. It's become an insane show of the sheer amount of illusory superiority going on relating to political sides.

 

[Gordon_4]

No it's their job or expected to be to do some of this thing called investigative journalism

Not on the scientific origin of a virus in a despotic country; that's absurd. Anyone who thinks that is their job can please report to me for I have many bridges to sell you.

 

[Generals]

That's "literal" in the modern sense of meaning "figurative". China is definitely not a fascist state, although it's certainly authoritarian.

Not figurative at all. They tick all the boxes:
- Ultra nationalism? Check
- Racism? Check
- Authoritarianism? Check
- No freedom of the press or tolerance of political opposition? Check
- State Capitalism? Check

Everything one associates with Fascism can be found in China's politics. Tell me where the difference lies?

Who said you couldn't hate China? Don't hate Chinese people, they're just a race, they had nothing to do with it. But the Chinese government? Yeah, that's perfectly fine to hate. Chinese wet markets? Hate 'em. Chinese indifference to unsanitary conditions? Hate 'em! The Chinese market for rhino horn and elephant tusk based off thousand year old superstitions that it makes your dick bigger and gives you sons? Hate hate hate.
But just like an individual Chinese person? Or even just the populace in general? They ain't done shit. Its almost all the super rich, and corrupt nature of their Government.

Who said one should hate Chinese citizens?

See you on the front lines then.

The modern world offers plenty of methods to punish a state for its behavior without resorting to war.

 

[Gordon_4]

Not figurative at all. They tick all the boxes:
- Ultra nationalism? Check
- Racism? Check
- Authoritarianism? Check
- No freedom of the press or tolerance of political opposition? Check
- State Capitalism? Check

Everything one associates with Fascism can be found in China's politics. Tell me where the difference lies?



Who said one should hate Chinese citizens?



The modern world offers plenty of methods to punish a state for its behavior without resorting to war.

You’ll forgive me if I’m sceptical of your sincerity on that point given the fiery rhetoric you’ve employed.

 

[Agema]

Everything one associates with Fascism can be found in China's politics. Tell me where the difference lies?

I get your point, but there is a fundamental issue is that authoritarian regimes are all in various ways the same. Lack of free press and political opposition is pretty much inherent to authoritarianism and aren't meaningful independent descriptors.

I don't think China is ultra-nationalist. I think it is quite ordinarily nationalist. In terms of racist, it is nothing like racist in the way that Nazi Germany was. China has a thing about stability, and clearly favours a form of national ethnic uniformity (with the Han majority, naturally) - much in a way like European nations did in the 18th century to build a stronger central national character. I would suggest this is quite a different order of attitude that Nazis tended to express.

Where I think there is more truth is that the current incumbent, Xi Jinping, is taking it in a more dictatorial, "fascist-like" direction, but it's not there yet.

 

[Dwarvenhobble]

Not on the scientific origin of a virus in a despotic country; that's absurd. Anyone who thinks that is their job can please report to me for I have many bridges to sell you.

Does CNN not have sources anymore?
People they can contact to pull in info?
Even just leave the door open to the idea of it happening?

 

[stroopwafel]

This is an interesting read even if it doesn't say anything new (ie possible but very unlikely).

Was COVID-19 Made in a Lab? An Epidemiologist Reviews The Evidence

One of the Big Questions about SARS-CoV-2, the virus that causes COVID-19, has for a while been about its origins.

www.sciencealert.com

 

[Generals]

I get your point, but there is a fundamental issue is that authoritarian regimes are all in various ways the same. Lack of free press and political opposition is pretty much inherent to authoritarianism and aren't meaningful independent descriptors.

I don't think China is ultra-nationalist. I think it is quite ordinarily nationalist. In terms of racist, it is nothing like racist in the way that Nazi Germany was. China has a thing about stability, and clearly favours a form of national ethnic uniformity (with the Han majority, naturally) - much in a way like European nations did in the 18th century to build a stronger central national character. I would suggest this is quite a different order of attitude that Nazis tended to express.

Where I think there is more truth is that the current incumbent, Xi Jinping, is taking it in a more dictatorial, "fascist-like" direction, but it's not there yet.

I don't think Franco's or Mussolini's Fascist regimes were as racist as Hitler's either. I did use "Fascist" and not "Nazi" for a reason.
And I don't see how one cannot consider China as being ultra nationalist. Xi wants to transform China in a homogenous Han China. He also Feels very strongly about "reclaiming" Chinese territories. Whether it be de-facto independent Taiwan or maritime territory of other nations. And he doesn't want China to appear to have any weaknesses or anything to feel guilty about (cf. Covid-19 and their attempt to deflect any blame, going as far as funding bogus studies trying to find potential sources of the outbreak outside of China). Another typical element of this ultra nationalism is the extreme white washing of history combined with repression of anyone who dares to speak about touchy subjects (the millions of dead under Mao, the Tienanmen square massacre, etc.).

When countries display one or two of the many typical shows of Nationalism China does it can be considered "Nationalist" but China has been going down this Nationalism road for quite some time and accumulated Nationalist measures to such a point it is not just "oradinarily nationalist". You don't open re-education camps where you send innocent people just because they don't fully adhere to the mainstream ideology if you're "just nationalist".

I mean what more do you want than all these things to start considering a country as ultra nationalist?

 

[Generals]

You’ll forgive me if I’m sceptical of your sincerity on that point given the fiery rhetoric you’ve employed.

Why would I want a war? A war against one of the strongest nuclear powers is suicide. But I do believe China should be economically isolated as much as possible until they start taking responsibility for their actions.

 

[stroopwafel]

I don't think Franco's or Mussolini's Fascist regimes were as racist as Hitler's either. I did use "Fascist" and not "Nazi" for a reason.
And I don't see how one cannot consider China as being ultra nationalist. Xi wants to transform China in a homogenous Han China. He also Feels very strongly about "reclaiming" Chinese territories. Whether it be de-facto independent Taiwan or maritime territory of other nations. And he doesn't want China to appear to have any weaknesses or anything to feel guilty about (cf. Covid-19 and their attempt to deflect any blame, going as far as funding bogus studies trying to find potential sources of the outbreak outside of China). Another typical element of this ultra nationalism is the extreme white washing of history combined with repression of anyone who'd dare to speak about touchy subjects (the millions of dead under Mao, the Tienanmen square massacre, etc.). I mean what more do you want than all these things to start considering a country as ultra nationalist?

Probably intent. China wants to maintain stability and prevent dissidence at any cost necessary. Probably also has a historic precedence; the fear of the country falling apart again. That fear is most likely what drives most of Xi's actions. In many instances where China's actions could damage it's international relations the country have kept remarkable restraint; the protests in Hong Kong, Trump's provocations or military exercises in the Pacific. China wants to maintain the status-quo while at the same time being recognized as the new global superpower. As long as the established globalization paradigma of mutual benefit stays intact I don't think China will ever pursue an aggressive expansionist policy like your typical fascist dictators. The economic losses are simply too great. I also don't think there is much indication to believe that China is all that interested in the affairs of other countries in the first place other than the countries it considers part of it's dominion. That China tried to deflect blame for covid was also largely in response to Trump's incessant 'China virus' remarks that forced the regime into propaganda mode. The country was more open at the start of the pandemic(not the initial outbreak when they tried to sweep it under the rug) by even publishing the virus' genome very early on so countries could start developing vaccines.

 

[Trunkage]

Why would I want a war? A war against one of the strongest nuclear powers is suicide. But I do believe China should be economically isolated as much as possible until they start taking responsibility for their actions.

So... cancelling them

I wonder if you have noticed that cancelling people does not actually do anything. They've tried the same thing with Iran, NK, Cuba... who still do whatever they want

 

[Generals]

So... cancelling them

I wonder if you have noticed that cancelling people does not actually do anything. They've tried the same thing with Iran, NK, Cuba... who still do whatever they want

There is a big difference though. China relies on its growth to maintain social stability. A lot of experts agree that there is an unwritten pact between the government and the population that they will accept the dictatorial rules and lack of Freedoms if it gets them prosperity. And Xi is very much aware they need the economic growth to maintain stability.

 

[Silvanus]

So about the death number data claimed to have been manipulated or people asked to delete it..........

Do you recognise the difference between 1) having no positive evidence for something; and 2) having proof that something isn't the case?

Because this is getting old now.