Gena Davis institute on Gender in media tries to link violent games to mass shootings and police violence

Dwarvenhobble

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Yeah, known Paypal thing. Like I said, he's got an itch.io page.
Yeh took a while and only saw change when Steam accepted some of his games onto the platform when Steam finally started accepting adult games
I've very explicitly found zero and am actively accusing of lying about seeing more
No you said you'd found a couple before
I don't have a problem with shorts, why would I ask?
because then you can accuse me of lying about the reply.
Lmao, hilarious. Hey, does one game in a set doing a thing mean that you can accuse all games of a thing? Asking for the rape/coercion tag on DLsite.
When plenty of mobile games happily pull scummy moves like that it's far from a one off thing. Also it's funny you presented the market a certain way but a far more effective thing would have been to prove the games you were talking about actually exist rather than pretending they're out there somewhere. If they are I've certainly never heard any real chatter about them

Fuck if I know, she's only the pope in your world. I'm playing a few with great stories though. And a couple time wasters with meme ads or pretty jpegs.
So Gatcha games gotcha

The fuck you did. It's a yes/no question: Should Marvel keep promoting an unhealthy body image? y/n?
Because gaining that type of body is dangerous, even with personal trainers and Marvel's supervision.
and I answered option 3. Because not everything is binary and simple.
 

Hawki

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I fear you miss my point. I'm not saying that robots are an accurate depiction of neurodivergent people, I'm saying that the common depiction of robots (struggling with social interaction, recognizing and contextualizing emotion, etc) hews close enough that people start noticing parallels, particularly with Asperger's (or at least the common understanding thereof). Frankly, accuracy is irrelevant; it's coding whether it tracks to reality or to stereotype. Hell, for the most part the coding of this particular example isn't even intentional.
Completely disagree.

First, there's no real 'standard' depiction of robots in (science) fiction. But if we're focusing on robots struggling to be human, to say that's parallel with Aspergers...that's really working back from a conclusion. Robots struggling to be human isn't just a trope, it's a trope that's grounded in real-world science. Take the Turing Test for example.

Point of fact, it's not uncommon to see the specifics of the coding applied to a given narrative criticized as contemptible for how it reflects a lack of research or understanding on the author's part. Eg, Detroit: Become Human was blasted for its hamfisted and tone-deaf attempts to paint the robotic characters as basically Civil Rights era African Americans.
I'm vaguely aware of Detroit: Become Human, but "common?" Um...

Okay, robot uprisings are common in science fiction. They're so common, that Isaac Asimov wrote I, Robot in the 40s as a response to the trope. Robot uprisings tend to be predicated on fear of technology getting ahead of us. Those uprisings being in reference to real-world rebellions? Well, they exist, but they're not really abundant, and the fear of technology theme is usually there regardless.

Hell, to your point, this manner of writing robotic characters has been getting increasing flack specifically because the near ubiquitousness of the pattern (and the fact that representation of those demographics outside of such characters is in the range of slim-to-none) carries prejudicial undertones that neurodivergent (and asexual/aromantic) people are somehow less human or 'incomplete' as people. I didn't invoke robots as giving such demographics fair representation - because it certainly doesn't - but rather I invoked that convention specifically because it showed how coding can carry negative implications if the writer isn't careful. And in that particular case, a lot of writers aren't careful.
But is it ubiqutous? I mean, short of going through every example of AI in science fiction, consider Star Trek by itself (since this is based on Data). AI has been in the series since TOS, there's no 'set' take on AI. Even in TNG itself, there's a world of difference between Data and Lore, for instance. Even if we accept that characters like Data, Seven of Nine, and B4 are representative of neuro-divergence, this isn't a standard for the setting, when on the other hand, we have stuff like Lore, the borg, Control, V'ger, etc.
 

TheMysteriousGX

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No you said you'd found a couple before
Literally never, why you lying? From how you were talking, I'd decided to trust you and assumed you'd found a couple, and man, I was severely overestimating how many you found
because then you can accuse me of lying about the reply.
What, you got an uncle at Capcom?
When plenty of mobile games happily pull scummy moves like that it's far from a one off thing. Also it's funny you presented the market a certain way but a far more effective thing would have been to prove the games you were talking about actually exist rather than pretending they're out there somewhere. If they are I've certainly never heard any real chatter about them
...you've never heard of Shining Nikki, Arknights, Fate/Go, Honkai/Genshin Impact, fucking Among Us, slither.io, legions of puzzle games, Starlight Revue, basically every idol master game, any of hundreds of visual novels that I'm personally weak on, Granblue Fantasy, the rest of CyGames's library, or living internet advertising meme RAID SHADOW LEGENDS?

Hell, some get full fledged console releases. Opus: The Day We Found Earth is a fantastic little game. Dandara has some great platforming and honestly loses a bit of shine from coming to console

You are remarkably sheltered.

So Gatcha games gotcha
Hey, at least I don't have to pay $60/$70 upfront to have the honor of accessing loot boxes and micro transactions. And there are plenty of games you just buy, same as any other marketplace. Trying to feebly pretend there's some sort of major difference between mobile games and "traditional" games just so you can pretend women are a smaller demographic than they are is so 2016 of you.

and I answered option 3. Because not everything is binary and simple.
So, in what circumstances should Marvel be pushing unhealthy body types?
 
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Silvanus

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1) Well some elsewhere's too:
Some Raves
Some Redneck events

2) Are Bikini's that common in games outside of where they would contextually fit or as extra outfits not the main ones?
Well, yes. In a whole lot of fantasy RPGs-- including ones I've played & enjoyed-- you'll have both a male and female version of the "same" armour. And the male armour will be largely practical, whereas the female armour will be designed to show as much flesh as possible.

1) Grinder is the general public
2) It sort of does but not so much the muscle guy as the Twink / Bear dynamic.
Yeah... that's not the majority of people on there.

If you genuinely think most men in real life fit into either muscleheads or "femboys", you've got a severely warped view.

So why bring up propaganda?
Why point out like propaganda repeats like sexy women keep coming up in media?
Put some actual thought into it.

Propaganda is an example of how cultural depictions, repeated over time, can dramatically influence how people perceive others. And if cultural depictions can dramatically influence how people perceive others, then that lesson obviously doesn't apply solely to propaganda.

OK then if it's not linked care to explain how it's not linked? Or how you positions works with the thing being unlinked from it?
You're the one making the positive claim. Explain how they are linked, since you haven't actually established that relationship.
 

Asita

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I'm vaguely aware of Detroit: Become Human, but "common?" Um...

Okay, robot uprisings are common in science fiction. They're so common, that Isaac Asimov wrote I, Robot in the 40s as a response to the trope. Robot uprisings tend to be predicated on fear of technology getting ahead of us. Those uprisings being in reference to real-world rebellions? Well, they exist, but they're not really abundant, and the fear of technology theme is usually there regardless.
Just responding to the latter portions of the post as I think they cover the former as well. It's not my intent to say that there is only one way of writing robots or that the stories are always allegorical. If I did then I expressed my point poorly. Neither was my point that robot uprisings were universally meant to parallel real world rebellions. I did not invoke Detroit as carrying the banner for how robot uprisings are written, I invoked it simply as a case of narrative coding that was so poorly received as to be considered insulting.

But is it ubiqutous? I mean, short of going through every example of AI in science fiction, consider Star Trek by itself (since this is based on Data). AI has been in the series since TOS, there's no 'set' take on AI. Even in TNG itself, there's a world of difference between Data and Lore, for instance. Even if we accept that characters like Data, Seven of Nine, and B4 are representative of neuro-divergence, this isn't a standard for the setting, when on the other hand, we have stuff like Lore, the borg, Control, V'ger, etc.
Ubiquitous was admittedly an overreach on my part, and I apologize for that. Upon reflection, the trend I refer to is largely limited to supporting characters that are supposed to mostly pass as human (mostly 'androids') but are still robotic at a fundamental level. And that's frequently achieved by functionally writing a human character and then removing some traits, probably most commonly emotion and the ability to recognize social cues and navigate social nuance. Obviously this does not apply to characters like Bender Bending Rodriguez or Optimus Prime, who are written with a very different design philosophy, to tell a very different story. But it does usually apply to the stories in which there's a question of whether or not such characters can 'grow beyond their programming' to become more human, so to speak.

To your point about Lore, it's worth remembering that he fills the role of antagonist and dark reflection of Data. He gets to be superficially 'better' because that's part of the bait-and-switch of his role, he appears to better pass as human, but in actuality he lacks a very important bit of humanity that Data has. The Borg...well setting aside that they're cyborgs, let us not forget that the entire horror behind them is that as part of the assimilation process the victim is stripped of individuality, all emotions and personality suppressed until all that is left is a near mindless drone. It's the same idea of 'make a human character and then start taking away traits' taken to its extreme.

Again though, my intent was not 'robots are always coded this way' - though I admittedly expressed that rather poorly - but rather that this particular method of writing robots has unfortunate undertones about what the defining features of humanity are presumed to be, as part of my argument that coding is A) not always intentional, B) not always positive, and C) not tied to appeal/fanservice.
 
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Cicada 5

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No some of the people complaining were pissed their favourite
Their favourite what?

I'm not being any more obtuse than arguing the game with acid spitting Ninja's and Cyborgs needs female characters toned down because of realism.
You do realize that you were the one who kept using this realism argument right?


Nah I manage that quite often. So why do you have a problem with the game having sexy women in it?
I don't. I'm just not offended by their exclusion.

OK because it was envisioned that way?
Wasn't the case for MK or Last of Us, yet we still got people whining about women not being sexy enough.

Because that's how the series has been?
See above. Even then, things change.

Because there's no benefit to removing it?
The acclaim and money these games have acquired from these changes say otherwise.

Because seemingly it's people shouting loudest about how they're a problem that keep turning out to be actual problems and they're projecting their issues onto others rather than having to realise and confront themselves.
Yeah and its never the ones whining about these changes who themselves also display reprehensible behavior like death threats, harassment or even criminality.

Because they're perfectly fine and why change it merely for the sake of change?
See my third point. These changes can and have been helpful in widening the audiences for these games. But since you're convinced of a conspiracy to fake their success, I'm sure this will fall on deaf ears as usual.



Weird to see some-one who seemingly is on the side of such a law dismissing it's critics.
I'd love if you could point out where I ever claimed to be on the side of such a law.


Dive Kick is a 2 button fighting game were it's distilled down to almost the most pure essence of what a fighting game is.
eye candy was gone
Okay. What's that got to do with anything?
 
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Cicada 5

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and I answered option 3. Because not everything is binary and simple.
This is pretty ironic coming from someone who's spent this entire thread arguing that removal of fan service cannot be anything but a sinister ploy by SJWs to oppress gamers and destroy sexy women in real life.
 
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BrawlMan

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This is pretty ironic coming from someone who's spent this entire thread arguing that removal of fan service cannot be anything but a sinister ploy by SJWs to oppress gamers and destroy sexy women in real life.
You do realize he's a constant goal poster, right? It's why I don't take most of his statements seriously, why this thread is a complete joke. I'm surprised it has not been closed down yet. Whenever he or others make such silly statements like this, I laugh.
 
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Dwarvenhobble

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Literally never, why you lying? From how you were talking, I'd decided to trust you and assumed you'd found a couple, and man, I was severely overestimating how many you found.

Funny how you found them
Oh right it was a couple of people complaining about other stuff


So far I've found 2 complaints:
1) Weird nerds complaining that the game that Nintendo exclusively funded is a Nintendo exclusive
and
2) Fair number of people wondering why they changed the english voice actress for the Bayonetta in the trailer.



What, you got an uncle at Capcom?
No, it would be using a contact email

...you've never heard of Shining Nikki, Arknights, Fate/Go, Honkai/Genshin Impact, fucking Among Us, slither.io, legions of puzzle games, Starlight Revue, basically every idol master game, any of hundreds of visual novels that I'm personally weak on, Granblue Fantasy, the rest of CyGames's library, or living internet advertising meme RAID SHADOW LEGENDS?
Man way to show me a world of mobile games beyond gatcha mechanics and tons of microtransactions you managed a whole 2 out of hat list and that's only because I'm giving Among Us a bit more credit.

Hell, some get full fledged console releases. Opus: The Day We Found Earth is a fantastic little game. Dandara has some great platforming and honestly loses a bit of shine from coming to console

You are remarkably sheltered.
Man I could probably make a better list than you for mobile games, this is hilariously bad you managed 2 actually ok ones. I'm actually half tempted to do you a list because if it's the gatcha games you're playing really could do with a list of other games.


Hey, at least I don't have to pay $60/$70 upfront to have the honor of accessing loot boxes and micro transactions. And there are plenty of games you just buy, same as any other marketplace. Trying to feebly pretend there's some sort of major difference between mobile games and "traditional" games just so you can pretend women are a smaller demographic than they are is so 2016 of you.
So what great lesson did Anita teach mobile devs again? This argument about gaming audience it just fails to acknowledge just how different the mobile game market is to the core market and how attempts by either to really reach the other have failed. Among US being one of the few that managed to be a hit on both.

So, in what circumstances should Marvel be pushing unhealthy body types?
What do you define as an unhealthy body?
One that causes unhealthy ideals but in context of the world and the role said people do said body shape would make sense?

I mean there's a reason Soldier Hero McDudebro won't generally look like Paul Blart Mall cop IRL.
 

Dwarvenhobble

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Well, yes. In a whole lot of fantasy RPGs-- including ones I've played & enjoyed-- you'll have both a male and female version of the "same" armour. And the male armour will be largely practical, whereas the female armour will be designed to show as much flesh as possible.
Yeh bullshit for the most part. A lot of games try for a more consistent aesthetic to armour unless it comes down to a Male Knight and a female mage or something


Yeah... that's not the majority of people on there.

If you genuinely think most men in real life fit into either muscleheads or "femboys", you've got a severely warped view.
No just the ones who become fairly well known / popular.


Put some actual thought into it.

Propaganda is an example of how cultural depictions, repeated over time, can dramatically influence how people perceive others. And if cultural depictions can dramatically influence how people perceive others, then that lesson obviously doesn't apply solely to propaganda.
So you do see sexy women as propaganda then. Or equitable to it.

Also again propaganda requires repetition and lots of constant reinforcement to work.

So I say again why are depictions of sexy women bad again? Is it then being allowed to be shown as sexy that you find an issue with?

You're the one making the positive claim. Explain how they are linked, since you haven't actually established that relationship.
Points to arguments by Anita
Points to arguments in the very report this thread started about
Points to claims by supporters of Anita Sarkeesian

So it's just pure co-incidence time and time again when said arguments come up said baggage is with them and it's no inherently tied to them despite the fact you can't or won't explain why you find depictions of sexy women to be so problematic you see it as akin in term of danger to propaganda campaigns......
 

Dwarvenhobble

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Their favourite what?
Eye candy was gone.


You do realize that you were the one who kept using this realism argument right?
Strange because pretty sure it was the MK developers who were claiming the look was more realist not me lol I'm arguing the pointlessness of said argument for the most part in regards to MK games lol



I don't. I'm just not offended by their exclusion.
So why should they be excluded?

Wasn't the case for MK or Last of Us, yet we still got people whining about women not being sexy enough.
Strange because MK is part of a series and well the Last of Us Part 2 was very much designed to appeal to people with a fairly specific fetish I'd say Neil Druckman has


See above. Even then, things change.
Why work to fix what isn't broken?

Change happened with the Hays Code in Hollywood too.


The acclaim and money these games have acquired from these changes say otherwise.
So much acclaim and money despite saying they'd never do it Nether Realm released classic costumes DLC and had to pump their game full of Microtransactions and most sales reports for The Last of US Part 2 don't go past the first month for a reason as it's suspected sales fell off a cliff.


Yeah and its never the ones whining about these changes who themselves also display reprehensible behavior like death threats, harassment or even criminality.
I'm sorry are you comparing idiots saying stupid shit online to be the equivalent of rape and sexual harassment?

Funny Anita tried similar at the UN and tried to get it into the report there but there's a reason it failed hard because anyone should be able to see that mean words on the internet are far less serious than actual rape..............


See my third point. These changes can and have been helpful in widening the audiences for these games. But since you're convinced of a conspiracy to fake their success, I'm sure this will fall on deaf ears as usual.
Ah yes because clearly the audience fine with a character ripping anothers spine out and beating them to death with it will be so very offended by too much skin on show from female characters.........


I'd love if you could point out where I ever claimed to be on the side of such a law.
You seem very in favour of or fine with women being covered it.



Okay. What's that got to do with anything?
Pointing out the idea of just how much is unnecessary that you objecting to sexy characters being unnecessary is hilariously disproportionate and comical when so much of gaming is not necessary. You could go further and have just stickmen doing basic fighting move because so much of the genre isn't necessary so why are sexy women particularly not necessary or particularly in need of removing again?[/QUOTE]
 

Dwarvenhobble

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This is pretty ironic coming from someone who's spent this entire thread arguing that removal of fan service cannot be anything but a sinister ploy by SJWs to oppress gamers and destroy sexy women in real life.
Well it's funny how people keep dodging round giving actual answers when I ask the question of why they actively want or will happily stand by as sexy characters are removed and are so determined to fight for said removal or right to see them removed.

Kinda makes it seem like people are hiding something because they don't want to admit to something or admit to themselves the true reason.

You do realize he's a constant goal poster, right? It's why I don't take most of his statements seriously, why this thread is a complete joke. I'm surprised it has not been closed down yet. Whenever he or others make such silly statements like this, I laugh.
And you proudly declared how you blocked me and had no wish to engage with anything I have to say yet here you are in this thread. What's wrong just want to stand gossiping about how awful another poster is to stir the shit but not willing to actually be challenged to argue anymore? Just wanting to preach how bad I am?
 

Silvanus

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Yeh bullshit for the most part. A lot of games try for a more consistent aesthetic to armour unless it comes down to a Male Knight and a female mage or something
Nope. Same armour sets. A quick search of WoW armours shows it quite easily.

Hell, even Guild Wars-- a game I absolutely love, as a side note-- had a Ranger armour set that was a longcoat etc on a man, but was a literal bikini on a woman. Exact same set.

So you do see sexy women as propaganda then. Or equitable to it.
Nope.

So I say again why are depictions of sexy women bad again? Is it then being allowed to be shown as sexy that you find an issue with?
Depictions of sexy women aren't bad.

I have to wonder at this point if you're even reading the posts you're replying to.

Points to arguments by Anita
Points to arguments in the very report this thread started about
Points to claims by supporters of Anita Sarkeesian

So it's just pure co-incidence time and time again when said arguments come up said baggage is with them and it's no inherently tied to them despite the fact you can't or won't explain why you find depictions of sexy women to be so problematic you see it as akin in term of danger to propaganda campaigns......
So your evidence that my position is "inherently" tied to these implications is.... that other people, completely unconnected to me, have made arguments with those implications?
 
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BrawlMan

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And you proudly declared how you blocked me and had no wish to engage with anything I have to say yet here you are in this thread. What's wrong just want to stand gossiping about how awful another poster is to stir the shit but not willing to actually be challenged to argue anymore? Just wanting to preach how bad I am?
You're not a victim. Deal with it.
 
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TheMysteriousGX

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Lmao, obvious troll account responding to Hideki Kamiya

So your grand total of evidence of "rising calls for censorship after the Bayonetta 3 trailer" is somebody laughing at a weird nerd who thinks she's already being censored and an obvious troll account posting before the trailer was out. Brilliant. Maybe your next example of a feminist calling for censorship can be a trad wife post from 2019
No, it would be using a contact email
Be the weird gamer story of the year, using Contact Us and having Capcom say "yes, we censored Resident Evil to appease the feminists"
Man way to show me a world of mobile games beyond gatcha mechanics and tons of microtransactions you managed a whole 2 out of hat list and that's only because I'm giving Among Us a bit more credit.
Free games gotta get paid.
Man I could probably make a better list than you for mobile games, this is hilariously bad you managed 2 actually ok ones. I'm actually half tempted to do you a list because if it's the gatcha games you're playing really could do with a list of other games.
I shudder to think at what you'd consider to be a quality mobile game, but go for it.
So what great lesson did Anita teach mobile devs again?
Why do you keep insisting Anita Sarkeesian is the Pope of video game feminism?
This argument about gaming audience it just fails to acknowledge just how different the mobile game market is to the core market and how attempts by either to really reach the other have failed. Among US being one of the few that managed to be a hit on both.
You have, thus far, complely failed to demonstrate a meaningful difference between games you can play on a phone and games you don't play on a phone.
What do you define as an unhealthy body?
One that causes unhealthy ideals but in context of the world and the role said people do said body shape would make sense?

I mean there's a reason Soldier Hero McDudebro won't generally look like Paul Blart Mall cop IRL.
I have literally already linked said definition, but in case you need it again:
But I guess you don't think eating disorders are unhealthy
 
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Dwarvenhobble

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You're not a victim. Deal with it.
No I'm calling you out on your bullshit.
You know where the door is if you don't want to contribute anything of substance to the thread. Funny how in thread you've made you object to people contributing side commentary.
 

Dwarvenhobble

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Nope. Same armour sets. A quick search of WoW armours shows it quite easily.
I'm calling BS lol

Hell, even Guild Wars-- a game I absolutely love, as a side note-- had a Ranger armour set that was a longcoat etc on a man, but was a literal bikini on a woman. Exact same set.
Is that because you didn't put pants on though?

Then why make the comparison?


Depictions of sexy women aren't bad.

I have to wonder at this point if you're even reading the posts you're replying to.
I am. I have to wonder if you remember what you were arguing because there's very little consistency to your arguments.


So your evidence that my position is "inherently" tied to these implications is.... that other people, completely unconnected to me, have made arguments with those implications?
And that so far you're refusing to explain how your position differs and because there is seemingly no way to make the arguments you are without the implications also being true. So care to thread the needle?
 

Dwarvenhobble

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Lmao, obvious troll account responding to Hideki Kamiya
Funny how none I could post will count.

So your grand total of evidence of "rising calls for censorship after the Bayonetta 3 trailer" is somebody laughing at a weird nerd who thinks she's already being censored and an obvious troll account posting before the trailer was out. Brilliant. Maybe your next example of a feminist calling for censorship can be a trad wife post from 2019
Oh look


it's taking a step further along from



But I'm guessing none of these will count as valid enough sources or will be dismissed one way or another.

Be the weird gamer story of the year, using Contact Us and having Capcom say "yes, we censored Resident Evil to appease the feminists"
Why when it's clear to anyone with eyes a change was made and likely to appease certain loud groups.

Free games gotta get paid.
Yeh shame you didn't manage any of the far better titles that don't rely on this BS

I shudder to think at what you'd consider to be a quality mobile game, but go for it.
Ticket to Earth
The Devil's Attorney
Space Team
Monument Valley
Knights of Pen and Paper +1
Slayaway Camp
Detective Grimoire
Red Dwarf XI
Red Dwarf XII
Judge Dredd: Countdown Sec 106
Chainsaw Warrior
Joe Dever's Lone Wolf

Why do you keep insisting Anita Sarkeesian is the Pope of video game feminism?You have, thus far, complely failed to demonstrate a meaningful difference between games you can play on a phone and games you don't play on a phone.
Ok so considering your argument I take it is there is no difference then why aren't more women playing consoles again?

I have literally already linked said definition, but in case you need it again:
But I guess you don't think eating disorders are unhealthy
*Points to Olympic Athletes who literally are training and competing all the time*
That's my evidence on context. Guess all of them have eating disorders too?
 
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Silvanus

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I'm calling BS lol
Here's the same set (Lofty Plate/ Glorious Plate) on male & female;

1634125617662.png

Here's the Jade Set on male & female;

1634125773125.png

Wild/Warmongering Gladiator's tunic (just the top);

1634126850817.png1634126873608.png


Escapist will only let me attach a few files, so I'll continue in another post for the Guild Wars comparison.
 

Silvanus

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Is that because you didn't put pants on though?
No. Here's the full set for Elite Druid, on male & female;

1634127060651.png1634127074928.png

(Again, I'd like to reiterate that I love GW to bits. Played it for 7+ years).

Then why make the comparison?
Because the comparison proves that cultural depictions can have a significant influence on perception.


I am. I have to wonder if you remember what you were arguing because there's very little consistency to your arguments.
No inconsistency, because I literally never said depictions of sexy women are bad. You read that in.
 
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