Texas v abortion

[tstorm823]

So, you actually agree with me that the government shouldn't be using religious definitions to support policy, nor should the government force people to be incubators against their will?

Because we disagree on a hell of a lot, but you don't argue that bit. You've been waffling about with "but free will is supernatural" when the government is using ghost stories to enforce a certain brand of morality.

The government shouldn't be using religious definitions to formulate policy, but that's literally what the trimester breakdown most of the world operates under is based on. It's secular, scientific knowledge that is pulling society towards "human life is human life, full stop". The government shouldn't force people to be incubators, but that is a different thing entirely than someone making themselves an incubator and then wanting to kill the thing they put in there.

To be fair, abortion is so hot a topic because it is one of the few things people genuinely disagree with each other on principle.

 

[TheMysteriousGX]

The government shouldn't be using religious definitions to formulate policy, but that's literally what the trimester breakdown most of the world operates under is based on. It's secular, scientific knowledge that is pulling society towards "human life is human life, full stop". The government shouldn't force people to be incubators, but that is a different thing entirely than someone making themselves an incubator and then wanting to kill the thing they put in there.

Who is out there intentionally getting pregnant just so they can have an abortion?
"To be fair" my entire ass

 

[tstorm823]

Who is out there intentionally getting pregnant just so they can have an abortion?

Intentional acts and intentional outcomes are entirely separate things. If you intentionally do all the things that normally result in pregnancy, you made yourself the incubator. Saying you didn't intend to get pregnant is a bit like intentionally pointing a gun at someone and pulling the trigger and then saying the safety malfunctioned and you didn't mean to shoot them.

 

[TheMysteriousGX]

Intentional acts and intentional outcomes are entirely separate things. If you intentionally do all the things that normally result in pregnancy, you made yourself the incubator. Saying you didn't intend to get pregnant is a bit like intentionally pointing a gun at someone and pulling the trigger and then saying the safety malfunctioned and you didn't mean to shoot them.

And that logic doesn't apply to strapping somebody down for blood and organ transplants due to traffic accidents why?
People drive for fun, people drive for work, people drive licensed and unlicensed, people drive themselves or get driven by others. Some are even pulled into cars and driven without their consent

And yet, if you end up in a situation due to driving that somebody needs urgent medical care using your body, the government cannot force you to do so. Hell, it doesn't even apply to injuring somebody with a gun by being a dumbass in your specific example.

Explain why that logic doesn't work for 14 year old rape victims please.

People drive for fun. People shoot for fun. People fuck for fun. All of these entail mortal risk you might bring to another person. Only one requires you sacrifice your body to keep said other person alive. Nobody goes and gets pregnant just to get an abortion.

"But science says life is life".
Science can make fetal heart cells beat in a petri dish, is that "life"? Ifv ideally uses a dozen fertilized eggs, are they on the hook for almost a dozen deaths every attempt? Hell, the Catholic Church hates it, so...who cares if it helps people who want children get pregnant, you can't do that, think of the children!

Face it, you only give a shit about science as it props up your religious beliefs. You don't give a shit about all the wild and wacky shit we can do to the human body with science. Science might call an embryo "life" but it doesn't give two shits about if you want to yeetus the fetus, that's all religion. And you don't get to legislate my morality anymore than I get to legislate yours.

 

[tstorm823]

Explain why that logic doesn't work for 14 year old rape victims please.

The logic I've presented does not apply to 14 year old rape victims, correct. Morally, I'd still not want them to have abortions, but legally it doesn't make sense. It would be like convicting a person of manslaughter because somebody picked them up and through them bodily to murder someone else. Moral culpability definitely lies with the rapist, so if you'd like to extra punish rapes that result in abortions, go for it.

If you do something for fun and the result is someone else dying from your fun, you go to jail. That's pretty consistent.

 

[Trunkage]

The government shouldn't be using religious definitions to formulate policy, but that's literally what the trimester breakdown most of the world operates under is based on. It's secular, scientific knowledge that is pulling society towards "human life is human life, full stop". The government shouldn't force people to be incubators, but that is a different thing entirely than someone making themselves an incubator and then wanting to kill the thing they put in there.

To be fair, abortion is so hot a topic because it is one of the few things people genuinely disagree with each other on principle.

To me, the science would be saying maybe 14 weeks starts becoming more of a being. I probably wouldn't day before 10

Also, I'm going to point out that those born at viability are forced into incubators. So, yes the government does force incubation onto people

Lastly. 'Make themselves an incubator'? What is this nonsense? If they wanted to make themselves an incubator, they wouldnt generally wouldn't need an abortion. Those who are suprised with becoming incubator are far more likely to have an abortion. I.e. They did not make themselves. It was thrust on them

 

[tstorm823]

To me, the science would be saying maybe 14 weeks starts becoming more of a being. I probably wouldn't day before 10

That's not science, that's arbitrary rationalizing.

They did not make themselves. It was thrust on them

On one hand, that's so obviously wrong. If you do something with risk and are surprised by the bad outcome, that's not thrust on you. You took the risk.

On the other hand, "thrust on them" is some choice phrasing considering the context.

 

[Trunkage]

On one hand, that's so obviously wrong. If you do something with risk and are surprised by the bad outcome, that's not thrust on you. You took the risk.

On the other hand, "thrust on them" is some choice phrasing considering the context.

Well, glad someone picked that up. May have contorted that sentence a bit to much to fit that in.

So... just to be clear on your argument, if contraception doesn't work, it's the woman's fault and she needs to pay the consequences

 

[Trunkage]

That's not it. The push was to end expanded unemployment benefits. Unemployment typically is "if you lose your job, we will support your basic needs until you find a new job". That's a good thing, that's a safety net that offers people security. Unemployment during the pandemic became "we will support your existing lifestyle for as long as you avoid working". Paying people explicitly not to work isn't really any more choice reducing than paying people to work. This is why you get people like me open to the concept of UBI, why things like blanket stimulus checks or child credits are pretty easy to pass in downturns, because they can help those who need it without encouraging people to be more helpless.

Just got ask. 'Encouraging people to be more helpless.' How do you think we should enourage people to be less helpless?

 

[tstorm823]

It's the woman's fault and she needs to pay the consequences

You're making this sound like it's about punishment. If something goes wrong in your life, you bear the consequences. If you eat raw meat and get sick, it's not that you needed to pay for your actions, you're just suffering the natural consequences of them.

Just got ask. 'Encouraging people to be more helpless.' How do you think we should encourage people to be less helpless?

Well, we build roads and make public transportation to let people go where they need to to help themselves, we do over a decade of schooling to (in theory) teach people to help themselves, we have programs to support people who might buy a home or start a business that will lead them to greater self-sufficiency. You know, tons of stuff.

 

[Buyetyen]

Intentional acts and intentional outcomes are entirely separate things. If you intentionally do all the things that normally result in pregnancy, you made yourself the incubator. Saying you didn't intend to get pregnant is a bit like intentionally pointing a gun at someone and pulling the trigger and then saying the safety malfunctioned and you didn't mean to shoot them.

So getting pregnant is morally equivalent to murdering somebody. Jesus haploid Christ man, just stop talking.

You're making this sound like it's about punishment.

Because for you it is. You've made it abundantly clear.

 

[tstorm823]

So getting pregnant is morally equivalent to murdering somebody. Jesus haploid Christ man, just stop talking.

I did not say anything like that. You can choose to stop imagining dumb things for me to say with me still talking.

 

[TheMysteriousGX]

You're making this sound like it's about punishment. If something goes wrong in your life, you bear the consequences. If you eat raw meat and get sick, it's not that you needed to pay for your actions, you're just suffering the natural consequences of them.

"If you get fed raw meat at gunpoint, the government will make sure you aren't allowed to wretch it up regardless of what it's doing to you, stomach pumps be damned. You accidently eat raw meat at a restaurant, it's your own damn fault for to having the audacity to eat out. Tainted meat from a butcher cooked and consumed in your own home, fuck you!"

Well, we build roads and make public transportation to let people go where they need to to help themselves, we do over a decade of schooling to (in theory) teach people to help themselves, we have programs to support people who might buy a home or start a business that will lead them to greater self-sufficiency. You know, tons of stuff.

lmao, conservatives work to literally dismantle all of those things

 

[AnxietyProne]

Well, we build roads and make public transportation to let people go where they need to to help themselves

That Republicans have been trying for ages to completely privatize.

we do over a decade of schooling to (in theory) teach people to help themselves

Which Republicans have tried for ages to abolish and have private schools only.

we have programs to support people who might buy a home or start a business that will lead them to greater self-sufficiency. You know, tons of stuff.

All of which has been declared "SOCIALIST" and therefore haram by Republicans, especially by those who kneel at the altar of Ayn Rand and Friedman.

 

[tstorm823]

lmao, conservatives work to literally dismantle all of those things

That Republicans have been trying for ages to completely privatize.
Which Republicans have tried for ages to abolish and have private schools only.

Republicans have dismantled the schools and roads in exactly the same way as Democrats have taken all the guns and banned Christianity.

 

[TheMysteriousGX]

Republicans have dismantled the schools and roads in exactly the same way as Democrats have taken all the guns and banned Christianity.

Idaho is hyper conservative compared to Montana and you can literally feel the difference when you hit the state line on I-90

 

[tstorm823]

Idaho is hyper conservative compared to Montana and you can literally feel the difference when you hit the state line on I-90

Both of those states are majority conservative, and both rank near the top of US road conditions.

 

[Agema]

Idaho is hyper conservative compared to Montana and you can literally feel the difference when you hit the state line on I-90

I bet it's not as stark as the difference in road quality when crossing the border from Goa to Karnataka.

 

[TheMysteriousGX]

Both of those states are majority conservative, and both rank near the top of US road conditions.

Currently. Every few decades Montana forgets that things go to shit when they put the GOP in charge.

Then they elect a lot more Dems to fix the problems. Had to put in term limits so that dem governors would eventually have to leave office. Already been through one cycle of that, not looking forward to the current one

 

[Trunkage]

You're making this sound like it's about punishment. If something goes wrong in your life, you bear the consequences. If you eat raw meat and get sick, it's not that you needed to pay for your actions, you're just suffering the natural consequences of them.

Let's combine analogies. You're at a restaurant. The restaurant cooks the food poorly leaving some raw. You're saying that you, eating the raw meat unintentionally, should be the only one suffering the consequences?

(The restaurant being the substitute for the company making contraceptives.)