Judge in Rittenhouse case might be a tad biased.

SilentPony

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Well, I'd think both are true. Most things are settled out of court. Most attorneys spend their time writing letters. But any court experience is better than the average juror
Just using a quick look up, and this is not up to date, but the average district in America sees 114 criminal cases a year as of 2018. Of those, truly, 99% settle out of court. That's 112.8 cases. That's 1.2 criminal cases that go to trial per district per state per year. That's not actually a lot for a DA or defense to claim to be experts.
 

Mister Mumbler

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That would only work in regards to trying to have the knife attackers charge reduced from Assault to aggravated assault. It doesn't mean you can't defend yourself or that said attacker is justified to escalate things to physical violence if the attacker survived. Even under the idea of "reasonable and proportional force" if some-one is coming for you with a knife that's intent to kill so equal response is willingness to kill to prevent it.
First off, the scenario as described is hilariously vague. It's so vague (man attacks drunk teen with knife), that it may as well be Jason from Evilroy's earlier example (which...fits, honestly. Dumb, drunk teens are his MO). In which case, obviously you are allowed to protect yourself from the knife wielding maniac, duh. The problem is that, with this scenario at least, is the fact that there is usually a lot that happens that leads up to 'wild stabbing motions' (usually). Context matters, like who initiated the conflict, where did it happen, did any party have friends with them, were there witnesses, etc.

For instance: say an argument at a bar between our drunk teen and someone who he has just bumped into has devolved into a brawl. The adult feels he is right, but unfortunately for him, our drunk teen is also the starting linebacker on his high school football team and built like a brick shithouse, and it's not looking good for him as our teen is a mean drunk and keeps on swinging. Fearing for his life, he reaches into his pocket and pulls out his knife and...you get the point. And this is just a few of any number of ways the vague 'man attacks drunk teen with knife' headline can go, including just straight up self defense for the teen, but then remember I did say;
Not necessarily, at least in the example you provided
 

thebobmaster

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It's an old joke, but just remember, if you ever find yourself on trial: your fate lies in the hands of 12 people without the common sense to get out of jury duty. :p
 
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Dwarvenhobble

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First off, the scenario as described is hilariously vague. It's so vague (man attacks drunk teen with knife), that it may as well be Jason from Evilroy's earlier example (which...fits, honestly. Dumb, drunk teens are his MO). In which case, obviously you are allowed to protect yourself from the knife wielding maniac, duh. The problem is that, with this scenario at least, is the fact that there is usually a lot that happens that leads up to 'wild stabbing motions' (usually). Context matters, like who initiated the conflict, where did it happen, did any party have friends with them, were there witnesses, etc.

For instance: say an argument at a bar between our drunk teen and someone who he has just bumped into has devolved into a brawl. The adult feels he is right, but unfortunately for him, our drunk teen is also the starting linebacker on his high school football team and built like a brick shithouse, and it's not looking good for him as our teen is a mean drunk and keeps on swinging. Fearing for his life, he reaches into his pocket and pulls out his knife and...you get the point. And this is just a few of any number of ways the vague 'man attacks drunk teen with knife' headline can go, including just straight up self defense for the teen, but then remember I did say;
Well it depends on the state laws somewhat.

As it's a bar I'd imagine the threat is lesser than other locations due to others about who will intervene to stop the idiot but I dunno lets say somehow he's swingning and has landed a few blows and it doesn't seem like anyone will stop him then yeh you could argue self defence. This ain't the movies where you're bound by honour codes to only fight using the skill choice your opponent has picked to best them at their own game.

Some states require you to show you tried to retreat from the situation before using lethal force in self defence some are stand your ground states so the moment you pull that knife the onus is on the attacker to back off or they get stabbed if they try anything. So depending on the state you might be fine after a couple of blows to draw and stab or you might have to show you tried to retreat and he following and tried to carry on.
 

Dreiko

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It's an old joke, but just remember, if you ever find yourself on trial: your fate lies in the hands of 12 people without the common sense to get out of jury duty. :p
Some folks get off on the power of being in one. They think they're like in a movie or something. The antics some folks would pull off to get out are real though, I was in a jury duty hearing and thankfully they filled up before they got to me but there was this one lady who was trying to argue that since different people have different alcohol tolerance that there shouldn't be just a single legal limit of blood alcohol levels. The trial was apparently a drunk driving case. Either way that lady was a very normal-looking person up to that point but she turned complete psycho during her interview. But I guess she managed to avoid being picked so props to her lol.


But yeah my limited impression from that one instance was that both sides had a prejudice against young people. They seemed to pick the most old and conservative folks without any strong opinions.

Also nobody in that fucking jury outside of me knew what a presumption of innocence is. The defense lawyer asked everyone to raise their hands if they thought the guy was innocent and only I did, everyone else was in a "well I don't know if he did or didn't do it" mindset and I had to explain to some old lady who looked like a school principal that presumption of innocence means you assume he's innocent and they have to convince you he's not, not that you just trust the lawyers that just because they put the guy on trial he deserves it, but that's the mindset juries come in with.
 
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Mister Mumbler

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The section you need starts about 17:30.
God...I'm even more confused now.
-Why is Kyle even running? Granted, I'm not listening with sound, but the way the video is edited, there's just a whole bunch of people milling around at a gas station when there goes Kyle. Further, why is he running, then not running, then running again?
-Where are all these 'adults' that were supposedly out with Kyle that night? I mean, apparently everyone overheard people talking about how much they would love to kill them and steal their guns, but they can't be bothered to keep an eye on the kid toting a rifle around with a confused look on his face?
-Where is this lot even that they were guarding anyway? Again, all I see is Kyle out alone, wandering the streets with rifle in hand (like, actually in his hands, Jesus).
-In fact, speaking of the whole 'milling around', where is all this chaos that apparently could only be dealt with with armed posses? The whole video feels less 'warzone' and more 'kid's classroom where the teacher has just stepped out' (well, except for a few minutes at the end there).
Well it depends on the state laws somewhat.

As it's a bar I'd imagine the threat is lesser than other locations due to others about who will intervene to stop the idiot but I dunno lets say somehow he's swingning and has landed a few blows and it doesn't seem like anyone will stop him then yeh you could argue self defence. This ain't the movies where you're bound by honour codes to only fight using the skill choice your opponent has picked to best them at their own game.

Some states require you to show you tried to retreat from the situation before using lethal force in self defence some are stand your ground states so the moment you pull that knife the onus is on the attacker to back off or they get stabbed if they try anything. So depending on the state you might be fine after a couple of blows to draw and stab or you might have to show you tried to retreat and he following and tried to carry on.
Yes, obviously this is real life, where there aren't really any honor codes. There are, however, usually codes relating to 'reasonable force' and if you are drunk, can you be trusted to be reasonable, especially in the heat of the moment? Like, say you do successfully fight off your homicidal maniac, and have managed to disarm him/knock him out, but because you're drunk and hopped up on adrenaline, you continue to attack and end up killing him. But then, we've reached the zenith with this whole 'self defense or not' game, is that self defense is contextual, and as such can only be invoked in certain situations (and sometimes can be revoked if taken too far).
 

Dwarvenhobble

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God...I'm even more confused now.
-Why is Kyle even running? Granted, I'm not listening with sound, but the way the video is edited, there's just a whole bunch of people milling around at a gas station when there goes Kyle. Further, why is he running, then not running, then running again?
-Where are all these 'adults' that were supposedly out with Kyle that night? I mean, apparently everyone overheard people talking about how much they would love to kill them and steal their guns, but they can't be bothered to keep an eye on the kid toting a rifle around with a confused look on his face?
-Where is this lot even that they were guarding anyway? Again, all I see is Kyle out alone, wandering the streets with rifle in hand (like, actually in his hands, Jesus).
-In fact, speaking of the whole 'milling around', where is all this chaos that apparently could only be dealt with with armed posses? The whole video feels less 'warzone' and more 'kid's classroom where the teacher has just stepped out' (well, except for a few minutes at the end there).

Yes, obviously this is real life, where there aren't really any honor codes. There are, however, usually codes relating to 'reasonable force' and if you are drunk, can you be trusted to be reasonable, especially in the heat of the moment? Like, say you do successfully fight off your homicidal maniac, and have managed to disarm him/knock him out, but because you're drunk and hopped up on adrenaline, you continue to attack and end up killing him. But then, we've reached the zenith with this whole 'self defense or not' game, is that self defense is contextual, and as such can only be invoked in certain situations (and sometimes can be revoked if taken too far).
Well as the drunk teen attacked and as being drunk isn't an excuse for other criminal actions it's still self defence because the drunk teen acting like an ass and attacking you isn't your problem as such, you're not responsible for keeping him from doing it.

Like Disarming him vs knocking him out are two different things themselves.

Knocked out they can't act. Disarmed they can still try and kill you or pick up the weapon and try again unless you removed the weapon entirely from play. I think the general standard is you don't keep on attacking once your opponent is "Disabled" as in unable to keep fighting or be a threat.

Killing him when disarmed would be a bit different than killing them unconscious on the ground still.
 

Dreiko

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God...I'm even more confused now.
-Why is Kyle even running? Granted, I'm not listening with sound, but the way the video is edited, there's just a whole bunch of people milling around at a gas station when there goes Kyle. Further, why is he running, then not running, then running again?
-Where are all these 'adults' that were supposedly out with Kyle that night? I mean, apparently everyone overheard people talking about how much they would love to kill them and steal their guns, but they can't be bothered to keep an eye on the kid toting a rifle around with a confused look on his face?
-Where is this lot even that they were guarding anyway? Again, all I see is Kyle out alone, wandering the streets with rifle in hand (like, actually in his hands, Jesus).
-In fact, speaking of the whole 'milling around', where is all this chaos that apparently could only be dealt with with armed posses? The whole video feels less 'warzone' and more 'kid's classroom where the teacher has just stepped out' (well, except for a few minutes at the end there).

Yes, obviously this is real life, where there aren't really any honor codes. There are, however, usually codes relating to 'reasonable force' and if you are drunk, can you be trusted to be reasonable, especially in the heat of the moment? Like, say you do successfully fight off your homicidal maniac, and have managed to disarm him/knock him out, but because you're drunk and hopped up on adrenaline, you continue to attack and end up killing him. But then, we've reached the zenith with this whole 'self defense or not' game, is that self defense is contextual, and as such can only be invoked in certain situations (and sometimes can be revoked if taken too far).
It depends on how far you go. If you punch him like a couple times more than the absolute minimum it's different than if you see the guy passed out and keep bashing his head on the ground dozens of times over the period of minutes just to be sure. But yeah it's subjective and this is why we have juries and judges and don't just make a no tolerance law.


Also you kinda have to think of the risk you're asking the person to take. If we already have established that this is self defense if not taken too far, well, that means the other person is actually a literal life or death threat in this context. Is it reasonable to ask someone to give such a person leeway to act out? Is it reasonable to ask someone to risk having their gun taken by such a dangerous individual? That sort of thing.

I think non-monstrous people can disagree about this and you can easily make a case that it's unreasonable to ask someone to take that risk with their life to avoid shooting someone. It's not like there is certainty that if they shoot someone that person will die, since 1 of the people here in this case survived and even testified in the trial. I think shooting someone's arm in such a situation is not crazy at all.
 

Gordon_4

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Exercising lethal force should be your absolute only remaining option- i.e. you can't run, you can't hide, and any other action will result in death or serious harm to you.

Unfortunately Republicans have redefined "self-defense" as "that person made me scared so I killed them".
What qualifies as 'reasonable force' is rather fluid since it is highly situational.

Let us take me; I'm a man and I'm 6'2" and I carry no small amount of weight. Now if I am attacked by say, a woman who is 5'4" and of normal weight, the only thing that would legally allow me to use more force than a single good punch to somewhere like the solar plexus to knock the wind out of them would be if they had a knife, a gun or were Rhonda Rousey who would be capable of kicking my teeth in with such force they'd probably shoot out of my arse.

However, if I was instead attacked by drunken ex-commando who's 6'6" and built like Captain America, I'd probably get away with anything short of crippling or killing him to preserve my own life.
 
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Schadrach

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It takes junk reading to disregard it.
...keep going, that was section (2)(a), section (3)(c) is where the exception that applies in this case is found.

Like hypothetically imagine the law contained "(1) Possession of a powdered stimulant is a Class A misdemeanor (2) This section applies only if the powder in question is in violation of (B)." where (B) is about possession of cocaine. Would you argue possession of powdered caffeine being a Class A misdemeanor? Same structure, different topic.

If I really wanted (1) to include caffeine, I wouldn't have included (2).
 

crimson5pheonix

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...keep going, that was section (2)(a), section (3)(c) is where the exception that applies in this case is found.

Like hypothetically imagine the law contained "(1) Possession of a powdered stimulant is a Class A misdemeanor (2) This section applies only if the powder in question is in violation of (B)." where (B) is about possession of cocaine. Would you argue possession of powdered caffeine being a Class A misdemeanor? Same structure, different topic.

If I really wanted (1) to include caffeine, I wouldn't have included (2).
Considering this has already been clarified by the legislature, as I posted before, we take that section of the law for it's intention. Hunting. They wanted to negatively define what is definitely not hunting vs trying to positively define what is hunting to avoid cops from taking weapons near forests or whatever. So unless you're saying Kyle was out hunting, in the middle of Kenosha, in the middle of the night, during a riot, he's in violation of the law.
 
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Eacaraxe

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Question from a non gun person. I get solid shells can pass through a target but aren't hollow points meant to be more lethal so had Kyle taken them it could and would with this prosecutor have been framed as going out to cause injury or death due to their lethality and propensity to break splinter in the body?
As far as I know, case law holds merely using hollowpoints are neither cause for establishing malice, nor an exaggerating factor. In civil court, it's another matter if the person using the firearm was handloading, but off-the-shelf hollowpoints...no, not so much.

Hollow point rounds tend to flatten and fragment in a target so while they do more potential damage to an individual, the round fragmenting means there is less chance of over penetration compared to a full metal jacket round that will basically keep going until it looses enough velocity to stop.

At least I think that’s correct.
Short version, yes.

Long version, the width and depth of wound channels depend upon how much of the round's kinetic energy is transferred to the target. Less energy transferred to the target, the narrower but longer wound channel you get. Think of it like crumple zones and breakaway components in cars; crumple zones are designed to bleed away kinetic energy from an impact, therefore reducing kinetic energy transferred to the driver. Except in this case, a hollow point is a "crumple zone" for a bullet designed to bleed away kinetic energy from the bullet...into the target.

Ergo, wider but shorter wound channels. Otherwise known as the difference between a through-and-through that may not even incapacitate your target at the cost of potentially harming a bystander, and turning your target's center mass into chunky salsa.
 
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Gordon_4

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I am imagining this very conversation taking place after this case is either dismissed or found in Rittenhouse' favour.
 

Dwarvenhobble

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As far as I know, case law holds merely using hollowpoints are neither cause for establishing malice, nor an exaggerating factor. In civil court, it's another matter if the person using the firearm was handloading, but off-the-shelf hollowpoints...no, not so much.
Ah fair enough though I don't this the prosecutor here is playing by case law much as he's been pulling out the attempts to play on jury biases like the claims about violent video games or trying to bring up Kyle's social media and the specific name of the account to try and frame Kyle as a less virtuous person....
 

Dwarvenhobble

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Developments for those checking in.

Jury having extra time.
Allegedly 2 refused to decide but something about them being concerned about backlash to the vote so refusing to vote
Videos of at least 1 fight outside of the courthouse between groups gathered there
The man who jump Kicked Kyle in the head has been found and identified and is likely to face trial for ABH regardless of the verdict on Kyle


as someone who intended murder?
Yes or was driven to murder by the lifestyle he idolised or something like that. It's mad but it's a strategy I guess.
 

gorfias

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Rittenhouse Prosecutors caught manipulating evidence, defense demands mistrial with prejudice.


The Prosecutor had drone footage that took nearly 12 mb. They gave the defense a 3 mb version that was blurry and provided the 12 mb only after the case was completed and the jury couldn't see anything on the 12 mb.

I think this Judge desperately wants to let the system work but this is disbarment territory. I don't recall if the Duke Lacrosse prosecutor was just suspended or perma banned from law. Reviewing.

EDIT: Permanent.


What he did may have been slightly worse as he withheld evidence that showed the defendant not guilty. I'm not sure if the video evidence would have been what made a difference in the trial but if that is so... why hide this from the defense?
 
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SilentPony

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It's an old joke, but just remember, if you ever find yourself on trial: your fate lies in the hands of 12 people without the common sense to get out of jury duty. :p
Legit question as Ive never been on jury duty - why would you want to get out of it? Its a civic duty and in theory an incredibly important part of our legal system. Its like wanting to get out of voting. Like shouldn't you want to participate?
 

Piscian

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Legit question as Ive never been on jury duty - why would you want to get out of it? Its a civic duty and in theory an incredibly important part of our legal system. Its like wanting to get out of voting. Like shouldn't you want to participate?
Last time I did it because I couldnt get out of work.