Someone(s) have sent out pro-worker messages to unsecured receipt printers connected to the internet

Avnger

Trash Goblin
Legacy
Apr 1, 2016
2,122
1,251
118
Country
United States
So we just take the wealth away from corporate owners... so that we can invest it in those corporations... and make extra money perpetually... by selling things to the rich people whose wealth we're taking. Perpetual motion machine, economics is solved forever. Bingo!
Welcome to economics where everything is made up and the money doesn't matter.

Our economic system is designed to be a perpetual motion machine. Every year, the total amount of wealth in the world increases already. If it ever stopped being one, the house of cards would fall apart, and you'd be looking at great depression (or at least great recession) levels of misery.
 

Seanchaidh

Elite Member
Legacy
Mar 21, 2009
5,775
3,521
118
Country
United States of America
Nobody is compelling anyone with discomfort. Reality presents those discomforts, and our current system allows people to escape them. You are just so, so backwards.
'Reality' is saying "no, you can't live there, that's one of my hundreds of investment properties. No, you can't eat that, you should have bought it before we threw it away."

Of course, the larger point is that there are a few who are very pointedly not being compelled by discomfort, or by much of anything, really, and those are the owners. They are free to be idle. Everyone else has an existence conditioned on enriching the already powerful and rich.
 
Last edited:

Terminal Blue

Elite Member
Legacy
Feb 18, 2010
3,923
1,792
118
Country
United Kingdom
Lol. You were so close to making a good argument, but then couldn't fight the compulsion to defend the indefensible.
What exactly is indefensible?

You live in a world where people who do literally nothing have so much money that it is impossible for most people to imagine. So much money that we're reduced to sitting here trying to calculate how many thousands of miles of road they could build.

Why is wasting one life (namely, your own) "indefensible", while wasting the lives of the vast majority of the human race is not?
 

tstorm823

Elite Member
Legacy
Aug 4, 2011
7,180
969
118
Country
USA
I'd suggest the problem that needs fixing is that they are able to make so much money in the first place.

Things will still get invented, stuff will still get made, investment will still occur, but the wealth is better distributed across the population.
Why is a flatter distribution of the monopoly money even desirable?
Welcome to economics where everything is made up and the money doesn't matter.
Right. So why are you so interested in taking money from people? We fund the things we want by printing money, what use is erasing Musk's?
'Reality' is saying "no, you can't live there, that's one of my hundreds of investment properties. No, you can't eat that, you should have bought it before we threw it away."
You know food banks exist, and are stocked almost entirely by businesses trying to feed people with food before it expires, right? I'm sorry reality isn't a desperate enough hellscape to justify your revolution, but it isn't.
Why is wasting one life (namely, your own) "indefensible", while wasting the lives of the vast majority of the human race is not?
You described quite nicely how someone in a particular situation has no power in or control over their life, and then defended someone who would choose that existence. It's not simply a matter of waste, it's an abdication of personal agency to sit around drinking all day.
 

Agema

Do everything and feel nothing
Legacy
Mar 3, 2009
9,217
6,487
118
Why is a flatter distribution of the monopoly money even desirable?
The key perhaps is in the word you mention there: monopoly. Monopolies are bad for free markets - competition should be the order of the day. Where one or just a few companies are stupendously rich, this often is not because they are particularly inventive or their products so good, but because they have found other ways of "capturing" the market (entrance barriers, buyouts, forms of legal suppression) that are really about stifling competition, and their market dominance thus can reflect unhealthiness.

Secondly, gross imbalances in power/wealth are dangerous for democratic society, and broadly tend to make lots of people very unhappy. Never mind that a lot of those unhappy people can be struggling to afford things that should be basic - e.g. healthcare, food, accommodation - in a society that could very easily provide for them.
 

Terminal Blue

Elite Member
Legacy
Feb 18, 2010
3,923
1,792
118
Country
United Kingdom
You described quite nicely how someone in a particular situation has no power in or control over their life, and then defended someone who would choose that existence. It's not simply a matter of waste, it's an abdication of personal agency to sit around drinking all day.
What does it mean to "choose" an existence?

None of us chooses our existence, we react to the existence we're given. If someone's response to the existence they're given is to want to blot it out with alcohol and if they claim that makes them happy, then I would question whether that person is sincere or whether they are rationalizing what is ultimately addiction and lack of control, but at the end of the day it is their choice. You cannot coerce someone into receiving help.

I was put into the position of caring for an abusive, violent alcoholic for a time. It was, undeniably, the worst period of my life, and I don't think anyone who hasn't been close to addiction ever really understands what it is or what it does to people. But what I really mean is that I have watched this situation play out. I have watched someone insist that they are having a great time and they are happy. I have seen that same person break down crying listening to a recording of themselves. I have seen a lot of diligent professionals (no air quotes this time, those people deserve that label) say, in no uncertain terms, that there's nothing we can do, and we needed to wait until life becomes so unbearable for this person that they can no longer escape the need to change. I have seen those professionals turn out to be right.

You don't abdicate personal agency by not working. Work does not create agency, kind of the opposite, in fact. Work in our society is coerced, it has to be, because its purpose is ultimately to enrich people who don't work. Working to create agency would require a wholly different approach to work, and it would, by definition, be an approach by which work is optional. This in turn means work would have to become something worthy of choosing over alcoholism.

If it isn't, that is still a societal failure.
 
Last edited:

Kwak

Elite Member
Sep 11, 2014
2,334
1,871
118
Country
4
Why is a flatter distribution of the monopoly money even desirable?

Right. So why are you so interested in taking money from people? We fund the things we want by printing money, what use is erasing Musk's?

You know food banks exist, and are stocked almost entirely by businesses trying to feed people with food before it expires, right? I'm sorry reality isn't a desperate enough hellscape to justify your revolution, but it isn't.

You described quite nicely how someone in a particular situation has no power in or control over their life, and then defended someone who would choose that existence. It's not simply a matter of waste, it's an abdication of personal agency to sit around drinking all day.
Ah, so you're one of those 'christians' who don't try to emulate Christ or his message.
 

Dirty Hipsters

This is how we praise the sun!
Legacy
Feb 7, 2011
8,597
3,118
118
Country
'Merica
Gender
3 children in a trench coat
Why is a flatter distribution of the monopoly money even desirable?
10,000 poor people being able to buy 1 $20,000 car each is better for the economy than 1 billionaire buying himself 7 Lamborghinis for $1,000,000 a pop.

Rent controlled apartments being built for 100,000 people is better for the economy than 1 billionaire buying himself a $50,000,000 mansion.
 

tstorm823

Elite Member
Legacy
Aug 4, 2011
7,180
969
118
Country
USA
10,000 poor people being able to buy 1 $20,000 car each is better for the economy than 1 billionaire buying himself 7 Lamborghinis for $1,000,000 a pop.

Rent controlled apartments being built for 100,000 people is better for the economy than 1 billionaire buying himself a $50,000,000 mansion.
It's not a zero sum environment. Those situations are not one or the other.
Ah, so you're one of those 'christians' who don't try to emulate Christ or his message.
This isn't an argument, nor does it have any bearing on what I said. I had 4 separate responses in that quote, and your retort applied to none of them.
Working to create agency would require a wholly different approach to work, and it would, by definition, be an approach by which work is optional.
Work is optional. The consequences of not working might be significant depending on your situation, but there are places in the world that you are inescapably trapped in an existence less desirable than an American choosing not to work. It's funny to me how often you try to describe how things are wrong or could be better, and the better you imagine is the way things already are.
The key perhaps is in the word you mention there: monopoly. Monopolies are bad for free markets - competition should be the order of the day. Where one or just a few companies are stupendously rich, this often is not because they are particularly inventive or their products so good, but because they have found other ways of "capturing" the market (entrance barriers, buyouts, forms of legal suppression) that are really about stifling competition, and their market dominance thus can reflect unhealthiness.
I see no sense in treating conclusions drawn from a proxy variable as a mandate for revolution. People getting enormously wealthy may be indicative of something broken, sure; others here treat it as an inherent fault in and of itself.
Secondly, gross imbalances in power/wealth are dangerous for democratic society, and broadly tend to make lots of people very unhappy. Never mind that a lot of those unhappy people can be struggling to afford things that should be basic - e.g. healthcare, food, accommodation - in a society that could very easily provide for them.
The imbalances is power/wealth are senselessly and heavily exaggerated. People constantly sensationalize the wealth of the rich, and then act like if someone has 100 times your wealth, it makes them 100 times as powerful living 100 times better a lifestyle. And the truth is, that enormous wealth has diminishing returns, it really is just meaningless numbers in many ways.

Like, if the single direct downside of wealth disparity is people's happiness and the social stability that results from it, one should question the motives of those who dedicate their efforts to planting an obsession on wealth inequality in people's minds.
 

Seanchaidh

Elite Member
Legacy
Mar 21, 2009
5,775
3,521
118
Country
United States of America
And the truth is, that enormous wealth has diminishing returns, it really is just meaningless numbers in many ways.
Then why do they care so much about keeping it and growing it?

Like, if the single direct downside of wealth disparity
It's not.

is people's happiness and the social stability that results from it, one should question the motives of those who dedicate their efforts to planting an obsession on wealth inequality in people's minds.
Not the people who, by your own admission, are uselessly accumulating that obscene wealth.
 

Dirty Hipsters

This is how we praise the sun!
Legacy
Feb 7, 2011
8,597
3,118
118
Country
'Merica
Gender
3 children in a trench coat
It's not a zero sum environment. Those situations are not one or the other.
It kind of is though.

If a billionaire is hording wealth in investments, not using their money and not paying taxes on those investments, just moving their money around then that money isn't actually going back into the economy. The relatively paltry amount that they do end up using on their obscenely expensive toys doesn't make up for the money removed from actively participating in the economy by their actions.

A reminder that the stock market =/= the economy.

Money being held by the rich in investments or otherwise is money not being used by the poor. All money made by the poor goes directly back into the economy, and the money made by the rich does not.
 

Kwak

Elite Member
Sep 11, 2014
2,334
1,871
118
Country
4
This isn't an argument, nor does it have any bearing on what I said.
...


Like, if the single direct downside of wealth disparity is people's happiness and the social stability that results from it, one should question the motives of those who dedicate their efforts to planting an obsession on wealth inequality in people's minds.
Like that dirty socialist Jesus.
Conservatism and being 'christlike' (the literal definition of christianity) are incompatible. You're only 'christian' because it's a social tradition and you think social traditions inherently have a moral authority. You have no actual interest in Christ himself and what he stood for.
 

tstorm823

Elite Member
Legacy
Aug 4, 2011
7,180
969
118
Country
USA
If a billionaire is hording wealth in investments, not using their money and not paying taxes on those investments, just moving their money around then that money isn't actually going back into the economy.
A stock investment is literally giving someone else your money to use productively on your behalf. It is the opposite of hoarding.
Like that dirty socialist Jesus.
Conservatism and being 'christlike' (the literal definition of christianity) are incompatible. You're only 'christian' because it's a social tradition and you think social traditions inherently have a moral authority. You have no actual interest in Christ himself and what he stood for.
Your statement is wrong, but it more importantly still has nothing to do with what you're responding to. I'm not engaging with this if you can't connect it to the topic at hand.
 

Agema

Do everything and feel nothing
Legacy
Mar 3, 2009
9,217
6,487
118
The imbalances is power/wealth are senselessly and heavily exaggerated. People constantly sensationalize the wealth of the rich, and then act like if someone has 100 times your wealth, it makes them 100 times as powerful living 100 times better a lifestyle. And the truth is, that enormous wealth has diminishing returns, it really is just meaningless numbers in many ways.
But why is that aspect of lifestyle not a defence of redistribution (or, if you prefer, limiting overaccumulation in the first place)? Studies would suggest that there's a point where on average additional wealth does little to create happiness, and that amount is in the greater scheme of things quite modest - albeit still considerably higher than most of the population have. This then should lead us to question why a few should have stupendous quantities of wealth from which they derive minimal happiness whilst millions toil in a state of unhappy want.

Someone who is 100 times richer than you really is vastly more powerful. The ability of people like Soros and the Kochs to fund innumerable think tanks, universities and prop up astroturf political movements gives them staggering influence you and I could not hope to match. It's even worse than that of course: when we look at unhappiness in both left and right about politics, a common theme is the rich de facto bribing politicians. We can call it lobbying or election donations, but they are buying themselves political influence in a way most cannot hope to manage. We do not need to wonder why, consistently, governments tend to cater first to business and the rich far ahead of the general public.

And it's not just political. A poor man accused of a crime probably has a modest lawyer, and is more likely to be convicted off the same strength of evidence than a rich man with better lawyers. In civil cases, the rich can suppress the poor simply because the poor cannot afford to fight the case. The rich own and run companies you and I (technically not me as I don't work for an owned company, but you'll forgive the rhetorical flourish) depend on: if they want to scrap it and cast us into redundancy they can do so. They can - and do - even if the company is viable and profitable.

It even works on perception. Let's take the father of capitalism, Adam Smith:
This disposition to admire, and almost to worship, the rich and the powerful, and to despise, or, at least, to neglect persons of poor and mean condition, though necessary both to establish and to maintain the distinction of ranks and the order of society, is, at the same time, the great and most universal cause of the corruption of our moral sentiments. That wealth and greatness are often regarded with the respect and admiration which are due only to wisdom and virtue; and that the contempt, of which vice and folly are the only proper objects, is often most unjustly bestowed upon poverty and weakness, has been the complaint of moralists in all ages.

Plenty of rich people are horrible people. And yet a great deal of that gets overlooked because they are rich. Being rich buys attention and respect, even where they lack the virtues to justify it: their opinions gain more weight even where their expertise is questionable, and media will be more inclined to seek and report their opinions. How did Donald Trump make it to president ahead of so many people with the same opinions and competence? Quick answer, he was rich. That wealth converted into respect and assumptions of competence despite all the other obvious evidence of his unsuitability.
 

Agema

Do everything and feel nothing
Legacy
Mar 3, 2009
9,217
6,487
118
It kind of is though.

If a billionaire is hording wealth in investments, not using their money and not paying taxes on those investments, just moving their money around then that money isn't actually going back into the economy. The relatively paltry amount that they do end up using on their obscenely expensive toys doesn't make up for the money removed from actively participating in the economy by their actions.

A reminder that the stock market =/= the economy.

Money being held by the rich in investments or otherwise is money not being used by the poor. All money made by the poor goes directly back into the economy, and the money made by the rich does not.
This is tricky. An investment holds part of a company, and effectively provides income for the company that allows the company to invest - to start up, expand, fund R&D, etc. It is not, as such, wasted money. These therefore likely drive economic activity in the long-term. It is however certainly not money that is effectively being used for goods and services that drive economic activity and provide jobs in the here and now. This is the logic for why the government should borrow and fund jobs during a recession: by increasing work, earnings, and driving demand it should help prevent further job losses, increase business confidence, and end a slump. Chucking money at savers, however, doesn't achieve this.

What bothers me are things like tax havens and the like, which whilst of course technically legal, allow the rich to remove their money from the normal processes of scrutiny and taxation, evade the spirit of the law, and provide a considerable acceleration to their ability to amass wealth. Meanwhile, of course, things need to paid for, and when the rich are untaxable the low-middle earning population gets clobbered for it instead, which makes it harder for us to both spend and save. Similarly I don't like the fact that capital gains tax is often significantly lower than income taxes: because capital gains are basically income, so the rich are intrinsically taxed less on the money they make. I think work should pay - and work is how most people earn. But our societies feel to me set up to reward ownership more than they reward work.
 

Hades

Elite Member
Mar 8, 2013
2,272
1,716
118
Country
The Netherlands
What exactly is indefensible?

You live in a world where people who do literally nothing have so much money that it is impossible for most people to imagine. So much money that we're reduced to sitting here trying to calculate how many thousands of miles of road they could build.

Why is wasting one life (namely, your own) "indefensible", while wasting the lives of the vast majority of the human race is not?
I think he's subscribing to the ''Poverty isn't a lack of cash, but a lack of character'' school of thought.
 
  • Like
Reactions: MrCalavera

TheMysteriousGX

Elite Member
Legacy
Sep 16, 2014
8,476
7,051
118
Country
United States
Damn, and to think this conversation started as "those Reddit users doing low level hacking to remind under paid workers of their value are communists"

Why don't these wealthy job creators just create more wealth? They don't need the workers, right?
 
  • Like
Reactions: Thaluikhain

tstorm823

Elite Member
Legacy
Aug 4, 2011
7,180
969
118
Country
USA
But why is that aspect of lifestyle not a defence of redistribution (or, if you prefer, limiting overaccumulation in the first place)? Studies would suggest that there's a point where on average additional wealth does little to create happiness, and that amount is in the greater scheme of things quite modest - albeit still considerably higher than most of the population have. This then should lead us to question why a few should have stupendous quantities of wealth from which they derive minimal happiness whilst millions toil in a state of unhappy want.
"Should" can be a dangerous word. "Should" almost always comes with Monkey's Paw rules attached. I understand the sentiment of "we should spread happiness instead of letting the resources rot", but what you imagine should be isn't so easy. Like, you want to limit overaccumulating? Is a few hundred thousand dollars too much? If you start an online bookstore, and it explodes into the second biggest retailer on the planet, how does one limit the accumulation? Do you say "Amazon isn't allowed to be worth that much" and shut it down? How do you stock the accumulation of wealth, when wealth is an abstract, subjective, fluctuating number? Is owning a bunch of trading cards that appreciate in value, just from decrease in supply and increase in demand, qualify as accumulating wealth? If people bout bitcoin for pennies and still own a bunch, do you take it from them? If the value of bitcoin drops, do you give it back?

People like hard numbers, they like to put a number on things, but wealth and value are imaginary concepts that function only so long as people are in agreement. Most stock affords no power or privilege to it's owner, other than people's desire to buy it off of them. Is it in any way reasonable to say "people value your stocks too highly, you're gonna have to give them up." Particularly in the instance of someone who started a business, are you really willing to say "your business is too successful by our standards to let you own that much of it"?
 

tstorm823

Elite Member
Legacy
Aug 4, 2011
7,180
969
118
Country
USA
Damn, and to think this conversation started as "those Reddit users doing low level hacking to remind under paid workers of their value are communists"
It actually started as "the hackers probably aren't communists, but the people who started that subreddit are."