Supreme Court overturns Roe v. Wade; states can ban abortion

TheMysteriousGX

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At some point, one would imagine you would get sick of being so obviously wrong and re-examine your approach to life.
I mean, the whole claim that 'it didn't happen" was a quote from a random anti-abortion elected cop, so...basically somebody who lies as he breathes
 

Trunkage

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...notes the lengthy history of conscription around the world and into the present day. Of course you said "her" body, and people described by that pronoun are usually not subject to that one, so I guess note retracted?



Someone clearly doesn't understand what a "fact" is.

OTOH, someone has actually been charged today with the rape in question (and is mentioned in an update to the very article linked), a Columbus man named Gershon Fuentes. So apparently the story has some actual teeth.

But holy fuck that whole it's a fact regardless of whether or not it's true bit is just fucked, especially from somewhere like WaPo you'd expect to have better standards.
Can I maybe just point out that this is a 10 year old. I understand that a point needs to be made but this is fucked and shouldn't NEED so much public attention

But, maybe that's because I have a 10 year old girl
 

Cheetodust

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...notes the lengthy history of conscription around the world and into the present day. Of course you said "her" body, and people described by that pronoun are usually not subject to that one, so I guess note retracted?
Find me a leftist who doesn't oppose conscription. Most developed countries don't have it by the way. That's probably why you don't hear us talk about it so much.
 

TheMysteriousGX

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Find me a leftist who doesn't oppose conscription. Most developed countries don't have it by the way. That's probably why you don't hear us talk about it so much.
Hell, the last time we had a draft was the same year Roe v Wade was decided to begin with. Outside of apocalyptic scenarios it's just not a thing to worry about. And to the shock of no one, it's the same people that don't want women to have bodily autonomy that doesn't want men to have bodily autonomy either. Or gay people. Or trans people. Etc
 

Silvanus

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" Ethical hedonism or normative hedonism, as defined here, is the thesis that considerations of increasing pleasure and decreasing pain determine what we should do or which action is right "
Right, and from the link used as a citation for that sentence;

" [...] the claim that pleasure and pain are the only things of ultimate importance is what makes hedonism distinctive and philosophically interesting."
Considering pain and pleasure does not automatically make an argument hedonistic.
 

Phoenixmgs

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At some point, one would imagine you would get sick of being so obviously wrong and re-examine your approach to life.
There WAS no evidence the story was true and the paper didn't do the bare minimum to verify anything either.
 

Terminal Blue

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...notes the lengthy history of conscription around the world and into the present day. Of course you said "her" body, and people described by that pronoun are usually not subject to that one, so I guess note retracted?
There are very real examples of conscripts having their right to dignity or bodily autonomy violated in various ways. But being conscripted, in and of itself, does not abrogate ownership over your own body or your right to human dignity, any more than having to serve jury duty, or having to pay taxes. It is part of the duty of citizenship.

If you don't get conscripted, it's not because you are considered to have a greater right to self-determination, it's because you're not considered good enough or capable enough to be conscripted. Disabled people or people whose physical fitness is too poor don't get conscripted, people whose ethnic or political background means they're not considered trustworthy don't get conscripted. Criminals don't get conscripted. And yes, historically women have been conscripted less often, to a lesser degree and for different purposes than men. That doesn't exhibit some belief that women have some greater intrinsic right to self-determination. Last time conscription was actually implemented in the US, husbands were legally allowed to rape their wives.

This is such an intense whataboutism it seems to have somehow completely bypassed the obvious fact that it is in no way relevant. If you live in a state, you have effectively made a contract with that state. A social contract, if you will. The state can require you to give it money or enlist you to defend it. This is not the same thing as violating your right to bodily autonomy or to human dignity. The state can't decide it owns all your organs and harvest them because a senator needs a new kidney.

..well, to be fair a state could probably get away with that, but if it got out it would be a clear and obvious betrayal of principles which go far beyond any objection to conscription. Which is fine, by the way, I think you should object to conscription. Just maybe not as a derailment to arguments about bodily autonomy.
 

Schadrach

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Outside of apocalyptic scenarios it's just not a thing to worry about.
I mean, an insufficient number of volunteers for several years in a row or an invasion would be the most likely cases to invoke it in the US. That doesn't change that the mechanisms to do so are being kept and maintained just in case.

Can I maybe just point out that this is a 10 year old. I understand that a point needs to be made but this is fucked and shouldn't NEED so much public attention
Agreed, but prior to yesterday whether or not that ten year old actually existed or was just a lie invented for political point-scoring was basically up in the air, with "fact checkers" essentially declaring that it didn't matter if it was actually true or not, it was "fact" because important political figures had invoked it.

It is part of the duty of citizenship.
This was literally an argument used by some women who opposed women's suffrage - worries that if they received the full benefits of citizenship they'd be expected to pay the full costs thereof. Apparently they needed not be worried, as even once women were permitted in all roles and positions in the military without exception the very idea would remain a thing that's not going to happen, that Congress refuses to pass and the courts refuse to hear (the refusal of SCOTUS to hear NCFM v Selective Service was penned by Sotomayor and basically admits that there's probably illegal discrimination going on there but SCOTUS doesn't want to get between Congress and the military, so...).

But being conscripted, in and of itself, does not abrogate ownership over your own body
Are you literally arguing that barring or restricting medical providers from doing one specific type of procedure or providing drugs for one specific purpose (because let's be honest, no one is willing to apply that generally) abrogates ownership over your own body, but the government having the express ability to literally at their choice and regardless of your will send you off to function as an agent of the state and likely be murdered (only prevented because they don't actually need to at the moment and calling for it is unpopular) is totally unrelated to ownership of your own body?

Actually, let's go down that rabbit hole for a moment - is restricting or barring any drug, medical procedure or surgery abrogating ownership over the bodies of people who might want those and thus wrong? Or does this only apply to abortion, and if so why?

If you don't get conscripted, it's not because you are considered to have a greater right to self-determination, it's because you're not considered good enough or capable enough to be conscripted.
Ah, yes, that's why rich folks have generally had a way out of it. You see, we see being wealthy was a sign that you aren't good or capable enough. The reality is you aren't conscripted if you are either seen as not capable enough (for example the disabled) or not disposable enough to be used to absorb violence on behalf of the state. Given women are allowed to perform in all roles and positions in the military, it's clearly not a matter of not being good or capable enough.

Last time conscription was actually implemented in the US, husbands were legally allowed to rape their wives.
...because sexual consent was seen as part of the social contract of marriage, and therefore it was impossible for someone to rape their spouse (this goes in both directions - wives were also unable to rape their husbands) because they had a duty to consent. This was of course a stupid social construct, and it is for the better that it was tossed. I wonder, do you consider the former legality of spousal rape a violation of bodily autonomy, despite sexual consent being a duty of the social contract of marriage as understood in that era?
 

Terminal Blue

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Not legally, unless they are acting outside of their orders.
..but it is a personal choice.

Being protected from some of the legal consequences that would normally apply doesn't change what it is.These are human beings whose actions are the product of their own will.

The reason people try argue that "person" is a different categorization than just "human being" is so that they can define person as an unfalsifiable, abstract concept.
The fact that it is trivially easy to argue for or against multiple positions regarding the meaning of personhood would suggest that it is an abstract concept..

a) The dictionary perspective: person is synonymous with human being, that's just actually what most dictionary's say.
b) The philosophers wasting time perspective: person isn't synonymous with human being and has no objective definition, making it completely useless in this discussion, to take your perspective and make it just a touch harsher.
I can't stress how immensely gratifying it is to watch you say the quiet part of this anti-intellectualism out loud. That is the kind of honesty I was looking for.

Neither of those perspectives justifies abortion.
And neither of them justifies opposing abortion. They're both quite meaningless without an unevidenced additional assumption that if a fetus were a person aborting it would automatically be wrong. I feel like you're expecting that assumption to just slide by unnoticed, but I see it.

Applying the word person to something doesn't change its physical nature. If you want to call a human zygote a person, that's fine by me but I don't think it matters. It does not presuppose any kind of requirement that we treat that zygote as identical to a human adult All you're doing is watering down the (already pretty watery) category of personhood.

That's not dignity. Killing your offspring is not dignified.
Why not?

And both these points are just you staking out the moral stance of hedonism.
Assuming I am, what is wrong with that?

You seem to take it as read that hedonism is bad. Why? What is your moral objection to hedonism, and more importantly what is your position in relation to it. Is hedonism anything more than a word you have adopted to justify your unwillingness to care about other people's suffering?
 
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tstorm823

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I can't stress how immensely gratifying it is to watch you say the quiet part of this anti-intellectualism out loud. That is the kind of honesty I was looking for.
I'm never not honest. Intellectualism is stupid, and deserves derision.
And neither of them justifies opposing abortion. They're both quite meaningless without an unevidenced additional assumption that if a fetus were a person aborting it would automatically be wrong. I feel like you're expecting that assumption to just slide by unnoticed, but I see it.
Again, that is not my assumption. That is an underlying assumption of those who are delineating between "humans" and "people". The argument that it's not wrong to kill a fetus because it's not a person. That's not my argument at all. I think the legality of killing humans should not depend on age, and could not care less about what you call a person.
You seem to take it as read that hedonism is bad. Why? What is your moral objection to hedonism, and more importantly what is your position in relation to it. Is hedonism anything more than a word you have adopted to justify your unwillingness to care about other people's suffering?
Not at all. Hedonism is a moral belief system. I personally think it is wrong, I'm sure you're aware I subscribe to a Christian moral system, but that doesn't give me grounds to assert my beliefs or dismiss yours. However, I think it's important to point out where you left behind any objective standards and moved toward conclusions based solely on your subjective, personal beliefs on morality. When you get to "death isn't bad since the fetus can't feel it", your argument has about the same value as if I came in here and said "the 6th commandment says not to kill".
 
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Silvanus

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There WAS no evidence the story was true and the paper didn't do the bare minimum to verify anything either.
This is a lie. Authorities have confirmed it: suspect has been arraigned, and police confirmed he has stated that he did it. Court documents also corroborate the details of the victim.


The incident occurred, but right-wing media intentionally cast false doubt on it for political reasons.
 
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Terminal Blue

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This was literally an argument used by some women who opposed women's suffrage - worries that if they received the full benefits of citizenship they'd be expected to pay the full costs thereof.
You're starting from the false premise that I do not believe women should be conscripted. In my country (and many European countries) much of the female population was conscripted during the second world war, mostly for war industry and agriculture. In Norway and Sweden, everyone is registered for national service regardless of sex. In Switzerland, women can choose not to do national service, but if they do they have to pay an additional tax to support those who do. The idea of women doing national service really isn't weird in most countries that still use it. The reason countries like the US don't institute an equal draft register is because firstly, conservatives still hate the idea of women in the military, secondly, because the US has not been existentially threatened by a war for hundreds of year, and thirdly because the idea of the US drafting its population as conscripts is an absolute joke.

Unless aliens invade tomorrow, most countries don't need or use conscripts, and of all countries on Earth the US has the least need for conscripts. Switzerland, Sweden, Norway, Finland and so forth have conscription because they are historically neutral countries with small populations. Conscription is a part of their national defence strategy, and that strategy has thus inevitably had to define the role of women in order to remain effective. Until the xeno menace arrives, men in the US are simply never going to be drafted.

If you're that concerned about a situation that's never going to happen, write to your representative about it. The only people holding you back are conservatives.

Apparently they needed not be worried, as even once women were permitted in all roles and positions in the military without exception the very idea would remain a thing that's not going to happen, that Congress refuses to pass and the courts refuse to hear (the refusal of SCOTUS to hear NCFM v Selective Service was penned by Sotomayor and basically admits that there's probably illegal discrimination going on there but SCOTUS doesn't want to get between Congress and the military, so...).
Why are you complaining to me?

I'm not opposing you on this, I just struggle to care about something which is never going to matter. But if it matters to you, the people blocking you are your own military and political establishment. Most of those people are men. Go bond with them over man stuff, I'm sure they'll listen to you.

Are you literally arguing that barring or restricting medical providers from doing one specific type of procedure or providing drugs for one specific purpose (because let's be honest, no one is willing to apply that generally) abrogates ownership over your own body, but the government having the express ability to literally at their choice and regardless of your will send you off to function as an agent of the state and likely be murdered (only prevented because they don't actually need to at the moment and calling for it is unpopular) is totally unrelated to ownership of your own body?
Yes.

When a state conscripts its population, it is not because those in power want those people to die. It's not a way of punishing people by making them go and risk their lives in a war. Those people are not there because the state owns them and can dispose of their lives as it sees fit, if anything in principle it is the reverse. They are there because they have a stake in the survival of the nation, and because they are deemed to be physically capable of being there. The plan is not to get them all killed, the plan (as questionable as it may be in practice) is to win the war so that as many of them as possible get to go home.

If you want an example of a violation of bodily autonomy in a military context. During the Vietnam war era soldiers were deliberately exposed to various drugs and chemical agents as part of military experiments without their consent and without knowing what they were being exposed to. These included chemical weapons, hallucinogens and experimental drugs. As a result, some of them suffered long term illness or debilitation due to side effects

Being used for medical experiments is different from required to fight in a war. Being forced into militarized sexual slavery, as some women were during the second world war, is different from being asked to fight a war. There is a difference between being ordered to do something, even something difficult or dangerous, and having the functioning of your own body appropriated to serve someone else's agenda.

When those medical experiments came to light, it caused a huge scandal. The CIA and the military tried to shred the documents and cover it up to avoid being implicated. There was a lawsuit over it. Even in the US, where the military has immense power and a kind of cultural immunity from criticism, that was a bridge too far.

Actually, let's go down that rabbit hole for a moment - is restricting or barring any drug, medical procedure or surgery abrogating ownership over the bodies of people who might want those and thus wrong?
Is the drug, medical procedure or surgery dangerous or potentially harmful?

Is it effective in treating what it is meant to treat?

Are the reasons for banning it medical in nature, or are they based in religious or ethical beliefs which a person might reasonably not share?

Because yes. If a treatment exists that is safe, effective and readily available, denying someone the choice whether to use it is a violation of their bodily autonomy. The decision about how to treat someone should be between them and their doctor and guided by medical reasoning and priorities, not the political or religious priorities of conservative politicians and judges.

...because sexual consent was seen as part of the social contract of marriage, and therefore it was impossible for someone to rape their spouse
Marriage isn't a social contract. It's just a contract. A social contract is not between two people, it's between an individual and the state that they live in and are part of.

You're also kind of wrong, because the history of the concept of marriage is way more fucked up than you're pretending, but this post is already too long.
 

TheMysteriousGX

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They actually didn't. I don't care about narratives, you seem to very much though.
I...it *happened*, come the fuck on with this. The had an on-the-record statement from somebody directly involved. They didn't print the girl's name because A) She's 10, B) it's an ongoing investigation, and C) the rapist hadn't been arrested yet. That *doesn't* mean they didn't fact check. It was reported to the cops and the cops *fucking lied* and every right wing shitheel ran with it.

So naturally the Indiana GOP wants to force any future 10 year old rape victims to carry to term