Gunman kills 5 at LGBTQ nightclub

[Dreiko]

Man, years ago one of the sidewalks in our town got repainted as a rainbow to symbolize acceptance of the LGBTQ+ community and it took a matter of maybe 1-2 days before some shitheads tire burned it. It got repainted, and when it faded it got painted again (and tire burned again) and like...
It takes literally nothing to not be a big trash fire of a person and just leave this sort of thing alone. Who fucking cares what other people are doing. God forbid a single sidewalk in a town is a rainbow without it having to be messed up. Buuuuuut no, "These people don't make sense to me so FUCK EM they don't get to have nice things as long as I'm around"

I actually like rainbows a hell of a lot so it took me a while to reprogram my brain into seeing them as gay coding in stuff. I'm still thinking of like, care bears shooting rainbows from their bellies or something lol. This actually reminds me of back in the days when I first got to america and as a huge fan of cooking I'd watch all those cooking shows like Top Chef (this is like back in the mid 2000s) and it took me a long while to realize this one channel (E or something I think it was) was like the "gay channel" since such a concept had never occurred to me. I couldn't understand why you couldn't have the show about the gay dude selling houses and being a ***** in any other channel just as well lol.


I think it's the standing out that attracts the attention, if you kinda just blend in with everyone and just go about your day you won't catch the negative attention. I doubt a street painted in "straight colors", whatever those are, would fare any better btw lol, for much the same reason.

 

[TheMysteriousGX]

I think it's the standing out that attracts the attention, if you kinda just blend in with everyone and just go about your day you won't catch the negative attention.

That's called "being forced into the closet", and typically means that they are not allowed to do the same things cishet people freely do in public

 

[Dreiko]

That's called "being forced into the closet", and typically means that they are not allowed to do the same things cishet people freely do in public

I mean, I don't remember ever seeing a street painted to honor straigtness, but I could be wrong.

 

[Terminal Blue]

Cool, lets apply this standard universally, to all claims of self-identification, and require official verification and consistent standards be met, as opposed to having people come up with fantasy tumblr shit and ask us to larp along at the penalty of social destruction.

No, let's apply a less hysterical standard.

If the shooter wants to be identified as non-binary then fine, they can be non-binary. The only relevant question is, what does that mean?

If they are politically non-binary, in other words they are describing themselves as non-binary in order to make a political point (in this case, presumably, to discredit the concept of non-binary identities) then the answer is pretty much nothing, so it doesn't actually matter (beyond the risk of exposing themselves to probable bigotry). The law on bias motivated crimes doesn't exclude bias against a group you claim to be part of.

The correct thing to do if you think someone is lying about their identity in this manner is to call the bluff. Treat that person as they say they want to be treated. At the end of the day that's the last thing they want, so it's the first thing they deserve.

 

[Elvis Starburst]

I think it's the standing out that attracts the attention, if you kinda just blend in with everyone and just go about your day you won't catch the negative attention.

I doubt a street painted in "straight colors", whatever those are, would fare any better btw lol, for much the same reason.

I think the standing out part comes from the fact that LGBTQ+ people are often marginalized in a society that seems to hold the values of the status quo of what a God loving person should be (straight), and by standing out you show that there's more to others than that narrow view of other people. They also stand out in part due to a large portion of society that tries to either pretend the LGBTQ+ don't exist or are a threat to the sanctity of humanity itself.

I mean, I don't remember ever seeing a street painted to honor straigtness, but I could be wrong.

There doesn't have to be, for the above reasons I just wrote. Your response also doesn't really address what was said and sorts side-steps it.

And I don't think any society has ever managed to do that, because it is inherently oxymoronic and contradictory, on a fundamental level. A lot of people's being in comfort can only be achieved when you rob others of their comfort. For example, all the religious nuts who are not comfortable living in a country with gay folks in it and such.

We are constantly jousting for whose comfort we will uphold at the cost of others' comfort with justice as our guide but either way you will never reach a society that allows all of its people such comfort, not without some major totalitarian mind control apparatus, which would defeat the entire point, since only the comfort of the people controlling said apparatus would be real.

I totally get what you're saying, and I actually agree with this to a degree, just because of what human nature is like.
However, the part I contest is the level comfort being asked. I don't think most LGBTQ+ people are asking everyone else to be 100% comfortable with them, or even have to LIKE them. They're just asking people not be fucking assholes who assault, murder, rape, and as we've seen here, actively go out on a shooting spree, simply because of the way they are.

They want people to let them live in the same society that everyone else have been able to enjoy all this time. That's not a comfort thing, that's a bare god damn minimum request of basic human rights. Cause at the end of the day, besides maybe having to simply look or interact with a LGBTQ+ individual or things related to it, there's barely a single thing going on that affects people that I feel would necessitate such harmful treatment of others. If someone feels that way, then it's on them to work on their prejudices and social issues, and NOT to tell the LGBTQ+ to fuck off and never come back. These people exist, and they are not going away. Just like we have to be adults and learn to deal with everything else in life, we have to recognize that other people exist outside our narrow world view, and they deserve to be here like everyone else.

Simple as

 

[Dreiko]

No, let's apply a less hysterical standard.

If the shooter wants to be identified as non-binary then fine, they can be non-binary. The only relevant question is, what does that mean?

If they are politically non-binary, in other words they are describing themselves as non-binary in order to make a political point (in this case, presumably, to discredit the concept of non-binary identities) then the answer is pretty much nothing, so it doesn't actually matter (beyond the risk of exposing themselves to probable bigotry). The law on bias motivated crimes doesn't exclude bias against a group you claim to be part of.

The correct thing to do if you think someone is lying about their identity in this manner is to call the bluff. Treat that person as they say they want to be treated. At the end of the day that's the last thing they want, so it's the first thing they deserve.

I don't know if it's lying or of it's just insanity, since someone who just randomly shot up tens of people and killed a bunch of em for no reason I think is definitionally mad as all hell. I question the wisdom in believing anything that someone capable of such an act has to say, about anything.


And...I did do just the thing you suggest. All I said here initially was that the title should be renamed from gunman to gunperson.

 

[Terminal Blue]

I think it's the standing out that attracts the attention, if you kinda just blend in with everyone and just go about your day you won't catch the negative attention. I doubt a street painted in "straight colors", whatever those are, would fare any better btw lol, for much the same reason.

Cishet people: "Our lives are happy and fulfilling, and everyone should aspire to be like us"
Also cishet people: "We live in a state of constant terror"

Yeah, no thanks.

 

[Dreiko]

I totally get what you're saying, and I actually agree with this to a degree, just because of what human nature is like.
However, the part I contest is the level comfort being asked. I don't think most LGBTQ+ people are asking everyone else to be 100% comfortable with them, or even have to LIKE them. They're just asking people not be fucking assholes who assault, murder, rape, and as we've seen here, actively go out on a shooting spree, simply because of the way they are.

They want people to let them live in the same society that everyone else have been able to enjoy all this time. That's not a comfort thing, that's a bare god damn minimum request of basic human rights. Cause at the end of the day, besides maybe having to simply look or interact with a LGBTQ+ individual or things related to it, there's barely a single thing going on that affects people that I feel would necessitate such harmful treatment of others. If someone feels that way, then it's on them to work on their prejudices and social issues, and NOT to tell the LGBTQ+ to fuck off and never come back. These people exist, and they are not going away. Just like we have to be adults and learn to deal with everything else in life, we have to recognize that other people exist outside our narrow world view, and they deserve to be here like everyone else.

Simple as

Step a few centuries back, and merely having a pantry full of spices from the orient, knowing how to read and write and getting to bathe when you wish would crown you as a person living in the lap of luxury, benefiting of the highest comforts, and wanting for nothing. This is the level of comfort we nowadays take for granted, when it was only the privilege of royalty for thousands of years up until...basically a century ago give or take. We are improving leaps and bounds here, so I think the doom and gloom is a tad hysterical.



Also you gotta keep in mind that hate is just irrational at the end of the day. I don't think people can help it. In my personal experience gay folks are just nice and funny, and I mean, it makes sense to me, cause I try to be nicer and funnier around the ladies too, so yeah basically I don't think it's anything to do with how people behave in their day to day basis.

Some folks are just weirded out or insecure or repressed or just crazy as all hell. You can't help that, and hey, at least now you can take shelter from it, in your bathtub, reading a book on your magic light stone and drinking spiced wine like freaking Cleopatra.

 

[TheMysteriousGX]

Some folks are just weirded out or insecure or repressed or just crazy as all hell. You can't help that, and hey, at least now you can take shelter from it, in your bathtub, reading a book on your magic light stone and drinking spiced wine like freaking Cleopatra.

...Yeah, Ann Frank had electric lights and spices too. Living in the lap of luxury, as long as it wasn't detectable or outside or around other people in, say, a queer night club

 

[Dirty Hipsters]

And I don't think any society has ever managed to do that, because it is inherently oxymoronic and contradictory, on a fundamental level. A lot of people's being in comfort can only be achieved when you rob others of their comfort. For example, all the religious nuts who are not comfortable living in a country with gay folks in it and such.

I'm pretty sure the religious people you're talking about are taught to "turn the other cheek" so I feel like they should be totally fine with their own discomfort. After all, suffering puts them closer to god right?

 

[Thaluikhain]

Like other people have said, I'm tired. I read more comments and got more tired.

A sizable number of people (possibly majority of people) need to hate other group(s) to just get trough their daily life, a subset of those people will have sever mental issue and will murder for no clearly discernible reason, maybe as a form of suicide or out of despair or need for recognition or who know what. So long as guns are widely available this will always happens, there's nothing that can be done about that. This is a situation where "we've tried nothing and are all out of idea" is the best you can achieve when taking guns away is off the table.

Even if you magically made it so everyone was tolerant of LBGT then this guy would shoot up another group, religious/race/etc. take your pick. And even if you magically made it so you had a perfectly homogeneous society, people would just invent some new reason to discriminate against another group. India used to be a fairly homogenous society and they just went ahead and invented some crazy class system just so they'd have a group specifically made to shit on and exploit.

This is an interesting point, there may be truth in it, but there's plenty of groups to hate that deserve being hated. People go on weird, frothing rants accusing groups of being child abusers when they aren't, where's the hatred for groups that actually abuse children, for example? Where's the calls for massive, sweeping reforms of the church and various secular institutions with a known history of concealing child abuse?

 

[Elijin]

Also you gotta keep in mind that hate is just irrational at the end of the day. I don't think people can help it. In my personal experience gay folks are just nice and funny, and I mean, it makes sense to me, cause I try to be nicer and funnier around the ladies too, so yeah basically I don't think it's anything to do with how people behave in their day to day basis.

You just unironically did the "Gay people all want to fuck me" bit which is a pillar of homophobia.

 

[Dreiko]

You just unironically did the "Gay people all want to fuck me" bit which is a pillar of homophobia.

Nah it doesn't have to be that, I don't wanna fuck every lady I'm nice towards, it's just kind of a reflex thing you just do.

 

[Cheetodust]

What are you hoping to accomplish?

 

[Trunkage]

What are you hoping to accomplish?

Dreiko is trolling everyone. Gotta always be on the attack

I don't know if it's lying or of it's just insanity, since someone who just randomly shot up tens of people and killed a bunch of em for no reason I think is definitionally mad as all hell. I question the wisdom in believing anything that someone capable of such an act has to say, about anything.

Dude, there was a reason. Pretending the shooter is crazy is just you not accepting that people can act this way and has very little to do with any reasons. If you are in the army, lets say, there is a process to get someone to kill a bunch of strangers. Step 1) Say they need to kill for Patriotic and 'defensive' reasons (doesn't actually have anything to do with defence, see the invasion of Iraq and Afghanistan) Step 2) Say they are evil. The best one is calling them paedophiles. No one seems to bother to check once you say that Step 3) Get them armed and trained. That what was done to this shooter. Don't be surprised if they shoot someone they are told are evil

And I don't know what wisdom has to do with it. Many people have reasons for doing things that aren't wise. Me eating a cheeseburger because of a crap day at work is not wise, but the reason still exists

Troll better

 

[Cheetodust]

Dreiko is trolling everyone. Gotta always be on the attack

I know what he's doing. It's everyone else I was asking.

 

[Thaluikhain]

Movin' right along.

 

[Burnhardt]

I suspect the only reason this has been reported on outside of the US, and thus the only reason why I knew about it, is because of where it occurred.

Other than that it is just another one of those than 'the US has had another asshat shoot and kill a bunch of people' moments. Another day ending in y.

 

[Gordon_4]

Does Colorado have the Death Penalty? Asking for a friend.

 

[BrawlMan]

Does Colorado have the Death Penalty? Asking for a friend.

The death penalty in Colorado ended two years ago.