If DeSantis wins

[Phoenixmgs]

Do you get terribly confused if you're in a group with more than one man and someone says 'he'?



Because the issue is nothing to do with tomboys. I still have no idea why you even brought them up.

The issue is that it doesn't fit how people identify, and disregarding someone's identity is just fucking rude.



"And so" the way you used pronouns is false according to the bill. Can you acknowledge that, rather than shifting the conversation onto punishments?

You have to a lot more reaffirming who you're speaking about if you're forced to use pronouns differently than normal. And that's stuff people can't do well because speaking the language as we all know it is whatever the mental equivalent to muscle memory is.

You brought up the fact that in the past people couldn't express themselves so they couldn't say they didn't want to be called a different pronoun, which makes sense and all. However, when people did change their behaviors, looks, interests, etc publicly without fear of threat, neither side changed their pronouns. How is it not rude for someone to accept that other people use pronouns based on sex? How far is this gonna go? Firefly is my favorite show so I can identify as a browncoat right? Do I demand people call me a browncoat? No, because that's fucking stupid. People already have problems remembering people's names let alone having to remember, in essence, a second name. It's just not a thing that's gonna happen.

You jumped in mid-conversation between me and Agema, who was claiming the "[Republicans] think it's totally a-okay to make trans people feel like shit and are legislating to make it happen" and that isn't true, that's not what the bill is doing or says. It says the state sees pronouns as sex-based and you can't punish employees for using pronouns based on sex and you can't force pointless trainings on them. That's all it says, it doesn't say people can't ask to be referred to as a different pronoun nor does it say employees can't use different pronouns either. It's no different than the official term for a car being automobile at the DMV and people using car instead.

If DeSantis wins

Do you not understand how gender and sex are 2 different things...? Do you not understand that neither sex nor gender are "what Phoenixmgs reckons someone looks like"?

forums.escapistmagazine.com

16 and 17 year olds in the US can have jobs in every US state. They just also have a number of restrictions on the type of work they can do, the number of hours per week, and the times of day. Florida seems intent on rolling as many of those protections back as possible.

Bill can be read here in full

Key highlights:

• Removing restriction of minors working before 6:30am or after 11pm
• Removing restriction of minors working more than 8 hours the day before a school day
• Removing restriction of minors working more than 30 hours in one week during the school year
• Removing restriction of minors working during school hours (note: exception already existed for those in a "career education program")
• Removing restriction of 16-17 y/o from working 6 or more consecutive days in a week
• Removing restriction of 16-17 y/o from working 4 or more hours straight without a 30min meal period break
• Removing restriction of 16-17 y/o working any number of hours less than full adults
• Removing ability of counties and municipalities to place more stringent curfews on minors (note: likely to prevent them from endrunning around the above changes via curfew law)

My friend in high school worked through all those restrictions outside of probably the time and school hour ones because his family needed the money. What's a kid to do that dropped out of high school if they can't work during school hours? Rather have them on the street dealing drugs?

 

[Cheetodust]

Truly fascinating to watch.

 

[Silvanus]

You have to a lot more reaffirming who you're speaking about if you're forced to use pronouns differently than normal. And that's stuff people can't do well because speaking the language as we all know it is whatever the mental equivalent to muscle memory is.

It's really easy provided you pay the slightest attention.

You brought up the fact that in the past people couldn't express themselves so they couldn't say they didn't want to be called a different pronoun, which makes sense and all. However, when people did change their behaviors, looks, interests, etc publicly without fear of threat, neither side changed their pronouns.

...because they don't always go together.

How is it not rude for someone to accept that other people use pronouns based on sex?

Denying someone else's identity is usually rude-- it invalidates their lived experience, and arrogantly insinuates you know more about them than they know about themselves.

And you don't even use pronouns based on sex anyway: you said you base it on appearance, and will call a transwoman 'she' but only if she meets an arbitrary aesthetic requirement. So really you're just insisting that pronouns must correspond to whateverthefuck you think at the time, and noone can object.

You jumped in mid-conversation between me and Agema, who was claiming the "[Republicans] think it's totally a-okay to make trans people feel like shit and are legislating to make it happen" and that isn't true, that's not what the bill is doing or says. It says the state sees pronouns as sex-based and you can't punish employees for using pronouns based on sex and you can't force pointless trainings on them. That's all it says, it doesn't say people can't ask to be referred to as a different pronoun nor does it say employees can't use different pronouns either.

And it also says the way you, Phoenixmgs, use pronouns is false.

 

[XsjadoBlayde]

Might be of help to consider approaching conspiracy theorists of modern era as behavioural addicts emotionally reacting in stubborn denial, unwilling to process or retain any new information if it threatens the continual comfort of the high.

Can Conspiracy Theory Beliefs Be Treated?

When addressing conspiracy theory beliefs in therapy, interventions can be matched to five stages of ideological conviction.

www.psychologytoday.com

Conspiracy Theory Addiction

Conspiracy theory addiction often causes long-term negative effects on a person's life. Focusing on personal goals and how to achieve them can help.

www.addictioncenter.com

(Those headline questions aren't adherent to the usual rule of "if asking, then no" should note)

Conspiracy Theories Are a Danger to Your Health—And That’s the Truth. Here’s Why.

People with conspiratorial mindsets suffer measurable mental and physical consequences

www.prevention.com

Mental health & conspiracy theories – is there a connection? - Tikvah Lake Florida

Conspiracy theories are on the rise. It is believed to be linked to increased use of social media – but there can also be a mental health connection. Learn more.

www.tikvahlake.com

Is the white middle-class equivalent of CIA crack distribution to black neighbourhoods to fund their CONTRA shenanigans, instead with most the GOP gleefully dealing to their voters just to keep their power hungry grift afloat on fumes this time.

 

[Satinavian]

My friend in high school worked through all those restrictions outside of probably the time and school hour ones because his family needed the money. What's a kid to do that dropped out of high school if they can't work during school hours? Rather have them on the street dealing drugs?

In most parts of the word child labor prohibition and limits were introduced precisely to limit the abilities of poor families to ruin their childrens education and life prospects to make some more quick bucks now.

It is not that children or adolescents can't work. It is that society decided that having educated adults later is way better than what little unskilled labor they can produce now. And that people have seen again and again how work and school conflicted and how especially working class children were pressured to prioritize the former.


Also "dropping out of school" is straight illegal in various places.

 

[Casual Shinji]

Because ofcourse that's where we immediately jump to; dealing drugs. The conservative mind everyone.

 

[Avnger]

h school worked through all those restrictions outside of probably the time and school hour ones because his family needed the money. What's a kid to do that dropped out of high school if they can't work during school hours? Rather have them on the street dealing drugs?

The obvious answer is exactly what Satinavian said above, but to build on top of that:

Florida law already provides a waiver system, administered by the state Department of Education, based on case-by-case analysis of an individual's situation. This both protects children while allowing exceptions in the rare case where employment would truly better their life. Straight up removing these protections is literally inexcusable unless you're the type to believe that "the children yearn for the mines."

Child Labor Laws & Information

Diversified Education Instructional Support Services Other Vocational Programs M/J Exploratory Career Education Wheel Diversified Education For more informati.

www.fldoe.org

 

[thebobmaster]

 

[Phoenixmgs]

It's really easy provided you pay the slightest attention.



...because they don't always go together.



Denying someone else's identity is usually rude-- it invalidates their lived experience, and arrogantly insinuates you know more about them than they know about themselves.

And you don't even use pronouns based on sex anyway: you said you base it on appearance, and will call a transwoman 'she' but only if she meets an arbitrary aesthetic requirement. So really you're just insisting that pronouns must correspond to whateverthefuck you think at the time, and noone can object.



And it also says the way you, Phoenixmgs, use pronouns is false.

It's not. One of my friends is named Leah (Lee-ah) and half her friends that known her for awhile (not just recent acquaintances) call her (Lay-ah) probably because of Star Wars. Whereas I've always hated Star Wars and it's not an issue for me. And you think it's easy to change your pronoun use?

Seems like the alphabet gang just makes up their own rules to me.

How is using a pronoun insinuating you know more about them than they do. It literally insinuates nothing besides sex. You're all making pronouns to be way more important than they are.

So...? The state says a lot of things I do is false.

In most parts of the word child labor prohibition and limits were introduced precisely to limit the abilities of poor families to ruin their childrens education and life prospects to make some more quick bucks now.

It is not that children or adolescents can't work. It is that society decided that having educated adults later is way better than what little unskilled labor they can produce now. And that people have seen again and again how work and school conflicted and how especially working class children were pressured to prioritize the former.


Also "dropping out of school" is straight illegal in various places.

My friend was in honors classes with the rest of us and we all did any homework during school so we never had any school work to do at home. Some of the restrictions do seem kinda dumb IMO.

If dropping out is illegal, it's never enforced then, we lost so many kids during covid that never came back to school.

The obvious answer is exactly what Satinavian said above, but to build on top of that:

Florida law already provides a waiver system, administered by the state Department of Education, based on case-by-case analysis of an individual's situation. This both protects children while allowing exceptions in the rare case where employment would truly better their life. Straight up removing these protections is literally inexcusable unless you're the type to believe that "the children yearn for the mines."

Child Labor Laws & Information

Diversified Education Instructional Support Services Other Vocational Programs M/J Exploratory Career Education Wheel Diversified Education For more informati.

www.fldoe.org

Ah

 

[Silvanus]

It's not. One of my friends is named Leah (Lee-ah) and half her friends that known her for awhile (not just recent acquaintances) call her (Lay-ah) probably because of Star Wars. Whereas I've always hated Star Wars and it's not an issue for me. And you think it's easy to change your pronoun use?

Yes, it is. I've changed the pronouns I use for one or two people I've known for years. Made a mistake once or twice when it was new; just said sorry, no biggy. Now it's fine.

You're making a mountain out of a molehill.

Seems like the alphabet gang just makes up their own rules to me.

Appearance =/= gender is a pretty basic principle shared by almost everyone, queer or not.

How is using a pronoun insinuating you know more about them than they do. It literally insinuates nothing besides sex.

It's insinuating you understand their identity and sense of self better than they do.

So...? The state says a lot of things I do is false.

Pretty bizarre to be insistently arguing that the state is fine and correct to say you're wrong. But you do you.

 

[Phoenixmgs]

Yes, it is. I've changed the pronouns I use for one or two people I've known for years. Made a mistake once or twice when it was new; just said sorry, no biggy. Now it's fine.

You're making a mountain out of a molehill.



Appearance =/= gender is a pretty basic principle shared by almost everyone, queer or not.



It's insinuating you understand their identity and sense of self better than they do.



Pretty bizarre to be insistently arguing that the state is fine and correct to say you're wrong. But you do you.

Nah, you guys are, nobody cared about pronouns until very very very recently.

Gender expression is how a person publicly expresses or presents their gender. This can include behaviour and outward appearance such as dress, hair, make-up, body language and voice. A person’s chosen name and pronoun are also common ways of expressing gender. Others perceive a person’s gender through these attributes.
External appearance of one's gender identity, usually expressed through behavior, clothing, body characteristics or voice, and which may or may not conform to socially defined behaviors and characteristics typically associated with being either masculine or feminine.

Since when? Pronouns are sex-based. You are the sex you are. You keep assuming the one side is the correct side and don't even care about the other side. Why is it wrong to use pronouns based on sex vs based on gender? The definition of "he" and "she" literally specifies it's sex-based.

Again, my main point is that what others here (like Agema and Mysterious) and those on twitter say the bill does is just wrong. I don't care about you're super tiny issue with this, I was never discussing it to begin with and you changed the discussion to it. Just because the state takes an official stance doesn't mean much. It's like complaining that you don't like the state bird or something.

 

[Bedinsis]

Pronouns are sex-based.

No, they are gender-based. Do you "correct" adopted people that call their adoptive parents "mom" and/or "dad"?

 

[Satinavian]

My friend was in honors classes with the rest of us and we all did any homework during school so we never had any school work to do at home. Some of the restrictions do seem kinda dumb IMO.

Good for him. Must have been quite lenient/easy work if he could not only keep up but achieve impressive results.

If dropping out is illegal, it's never enforced then, we lost so many kids during covid that never came back to school.

And we didn't. Because that would have meant loss of custody or even jail for the parents.

 

[Kwak]

Utter ghouls. String them up.

 

[Silvanus]

Nah, you guys are, nobody cared about pronouns until very very very recently.

People are recorded objecting to which gendered terms are used to describe them in the Roman empire.

Since when? Pronouns are sex-based. You are the sex you are. You keep assuming the one side is the correct side and don't even care about the other side. Why is it wrong to use pronouns based on sex vs based on gender? The definition of "he" and "she" literally specifies it's sex-based.

Firstly, 'biological sex' is not the same thing as 'sex at birth'. You seem to be using the former to refer to the latter.

Secondly, I have no reason to believe the use of pronouns is or should be tied to biological sex rather than gender identity. Pronouns are used to refer to a person's identity, not their bodily functions.

 

[Phoenixmgs]

No, they are gender-based. Do you "correct" adopted people that call their adoptive parents "mom" and/or "dad"?

How is it not sex-based?

Good for him. Must have been quite lenient/easy work if he could not only keep up but achieve impressive results.
And we didn't. Because that would have meant loss of custody or even jail for the parents.

All of us are the kind of people that just remember stuff well enough. We never studied for anything, just look over notes 5 mins before class for a test and that's it.

Tons of kids didn't return to school.

https://www.usnews.com/news/health-news/articles/2023-02-09/the-pandemic-missing-the-kids-who-didnt-go-back-to-school

People are recorded objecting to which gendered terms are used to describe them in the Roman empire.



Firstly, 'biological sex' is not the same thing as 'sex at birth'. You seem to be using the former to refer to the latter.

Secondly, I have no reason to believe the use of pronouns is or should be tied to biological sex rather than gender identity. Pronouns are used to refer to a person's identity, not their bodily functions.

Source?

Nobody is looking at someone's birth certificate to determine what pronoun to use.

Who says? I have no reason to believe the use of pronouns is or should be tied to gender identity. The definitions refer to sex, not gender. Why is one side magically right and the other side wrong?

 

[The Rogue Wolf]

Republicans don't actually give a fuck about protecting children. They just want to have exclusive access to exploit them.

 

[Casual Shinji]

So that's why republicans are so anti abortion - Because abusing minors gives them such a massive hard-on.

 

[Phoenixmgs]

So currently prepping a new hospital to go live and because of the stupid gender stuff, the bathrooms are now labelled male/female instead of the normal men/women because people don't understand what a man and woman are anymore...

 

[Phoenixmgs]

Republicans don't actually give a fuck about protecting children. They just want to have exclusive access to exploit them.

Neither do democrats who closed schools for 18 months. Or what about all the crime policy that gets passed that just makes neighborhoods even more dangerous for kids. This is what happens when you're so tribal, you can't see the wrongs your side does. In actually, what is more dangerous for kids, losing school / communities having more crime or making a McDonalds a bit less safe to work at?