Trump ordered to pay $350 million for fraudulent business practices in New York

Thaluikhain

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Maybe if you're unaware of the political landscape... But if you're constantly arguing for republicans and against democrates, yet claim you think both are equally bad, I'm gonna have to call bullshit.

Just come out and say it, don't hide behind this Tim Pool "centrism", it's fine. Well I mean, it's not fine, because republicans fucking suck, but in an argument it's best not jerk the other party around by acting like you're not.

And I can't remember Catnip much other than the name, but if they were constantly supporting Trump despite claiming they weren't a Trump supporter, they were a Trump supporter.
I suspect (though I'm way of armchair psychoanalysing people online) that it's due to the cognitive dissonance of being a GOP supporter and it being really obvious that the GOP are evil. Not unlike people who believe themselves when they say "I'm not racist, but...", I guess.
 

Ag3ma

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I suspect (though I'm way of armchair psychoanalysing people online) that it's due to the cognitive dissonance of being a GOP supporter and it being really obvious that the GOP are evil. Not unlike people who believe themselves when they say "I'm not racist, but...", I guess.
I think I'd be more general about it.

There's a problem between being economically left-leaning and socially conservative (or vice versa), and so finding a major unsatisfying issue with either mainstream party in many countries. This is often where the far right flourish.

Or, simply, that mainstream politics and parties are just so generally disappointing, leading to general disillusionment. I mean, most political parties are awful. No matter what the policies are, left or right, they're full of overambitious arseholes, often arrogant, self-aggrandising and full of petty rivalries and vendettas, with a distinct lack of moral vision. To an extent, the universality of this experience tells us that's just what politics is, and people hate it. Thus in many cases lots of people along these lines just generally don't like the government. They will often be sympathetic to those they perceive as outsiders, such as Trump - or for that matter Bernie Sanders. I think there's a substantial crossover in voters who might like either Trump or Sanders despite their radically different policies and attitudes, because the defining characteristic is that they appear different from all the other arseholes clogging up the place.
 
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Schadrach

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I once threw a ball at a window and the window didn't break so, henceforth, no windows will ever be broken by balls again.
You don't think what Phoenixmgs wrote is the direct equivalent to the routine GOP $CANDIDATE is our last hope claims? The GOP perennially claims we're on the edge of collapse that can only be prevented if they win, Dems have just started taking up the same ploy. In both cases, it's to try to drive their voters to the polls with fear.

and we have a presidential hopeful who just happened to kinda lead an insurrection. Well, lead is a strong word, but he certainly directed it and didn't do the bare minimum to stop it when it was his cultists doing it. If he didn't want to be knocked off ballots then he shouldn't have done the crime.
When this inevitably hits court, it's probably going to be argued on due process grounds. Who makes the determination if someone is ineligible under 14A, and under what standards are they supposed to do that? It's an important question because when it was written they were thinking about public office holders in a rebel faction, no questions of fact involved. And every application of 14A section 3 I've been able to look up has either involved a Confederate official or someone convicted in criminal court for having done the thing disqualifying him.
 

Phoenixmgs

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I don't care for the democrats either, but the lesser of 2 evils is still the lesser of 2 evils, especially when one side is chaotic evil and one side is lawful evil. Trump does not believe in the rule of law and thinks that he is above the law, and by extension the Republican party that has built itself around Trump believes the same thing.
You don't have to vote for either of them though. You'd really have to do a full list of shit both parties have done to actually come to the conclusion on who is worst honestly. The democrats put in a lawsuit to stop ranked choice voting in DC because they literally said it was too confusing for black people.

We already do that. We already cannot elect someone who is younger then 35 or from another country even if they become a citizen. We also have rules saying you aren't allowed on the ballet for insurrection and we have a presidential hopeful who just happened to kinda lead an insurrection. Well, lead is a strong word, but he certainly directed it and didn't do the bare minimum to stop it when it was his cultists doing it. If he didn't want to be knocked off ballots then he shouldn't have done the crime.
He hasn't been convicted of the crime so he's not, currently, an insurrectionist.

You do understand the difference between a party selecting its candidates and an actual democratic election?



Ever think that your "but both sides..." mindset blinds you to very real differences in qualities and attitudes between candidates and parties?

To give an example of how little sense of proportion you can have, Trump ran a systematic, months-long campaign to sow doubt in Americans' trust in the election including numerous actual plots to interfere with, delay or even prevent Biden's election, culminating in a mob storming the Capitol. And you've commented that this is equivalent to Hillary saying that Trump was an "illegitimate" president in a media interview.
If there's only 2 parties and they only ever select their candidates, how much of a democracy is it? The other candidates followed the rules to be on the ballot.

And the democrats when on and on for 3 years saying Trump colluded with Russia when that wasn't true and the media also went all-in on that narrative as well. It's more than just Hilary saying one time he was an illegitimate president.

'I don't have a team and dislike republicans' says man who only ever spouts conservative talking points, disregards progressive ideals, and ignores facts that disprove republican fear mongering.

... uh huh.
Being for like every progressive policy is places like Denmark and Sweden is disregarding progressive ideals? I literally say both sides fear monger all the time and I've asked for everyone to stop acting like the sky is gonna fall if the other side wins an election.
 

Ag3ma

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And every application of 14A section 3 I've been able to look up has either involved a Confederate official or someone convicted in criminal court for having done the thing disqualifying him.
I would be shocked if SCOTUS did not demand criminal conviction (and/or maybe Congressional impeachment) to uphold someone being barred office under the 14th Amendment insurrection clause. Not least because it's by some way the most reasonable way to do it. If we take the basic principle that the right to vote and stand for office is fundamental to a democracy, it demands a high bar to remove from someone.
 
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Silvanus

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He hasn't been convicted of the crime so he's not, currently, an insurrectionist.
TIL Al Capone was not actually a gangster, smuggler, murderer etc.

Being for like every progressive policy is places like Denmark and Sweden is disregarding progressive ideals?
Hmm, well you say you do, and then do nothing but trash progressive ideals.
 
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Ag3ma

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If there's only 2 parties and they only ever select their candidates, how much of a democracy is it? The other candidates followed the rules to be on the ballot.
Okay, so what are you going to do about it?

And the democrats when on and on for 3 years saying Trump colluded with Russia when that wasn't true and the media also went all-in on that narrative as well.
And that's still not on a par with what Trump attempted over the election. After all, that's actually two years of investigation by an independent counsel, and the Democrats refrained from an impeachment at the end. It is reasonably comparable to the Hillary Clinton email farrago, and the long-winded investigation into Hunter Biden (still ongoing) being milked for everything it's worth. Plus you're still omitting the serious concerns over obstruction of justice - contextually remembering of course that the Republicans thought obstruction of justice sufficient to send Bill Clinton to an impeachment trial in the 90s.

Being for like every progressive policy is places like Denmark and Sweden is disregarding progressive ideals?
Yes, as evidenced by this forum, you do disregard a lot of progressive ideals. You seem to be a social conservative.
 
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Phoenixmgs

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TIL Al Capone was not actually a gangster, smuggler, murderer etc.



Hmm, well you say you do, and then do nothing but trash progressive ideals.
Innocent until proven guilty.

If some policy makes things worse than they currently are, I will trash the policy regardless if progressive or conservative.

Okay, so what are you going to do about it?



And that's still not on a par with what Trump attempted over the election. After all, that's actually two years of investigation by an independent counsel, and the Democrats refrained from an impeachment at the end. It is reasonably comparable to the Hillary Clinton email farrago, and the long-winded investigation into Hunter Biden (still ongoing) being milked for everything it's worth. Plus you're still omitting the serious concerns over obstruction of justice - contextually remembering of course that the Republicans thought obstruction of justice sufficient to send Bill Clinton to an impeachment trial in the 90s.



Yes, as evidenced by this forum, you do disregard a lot of progressive ideals. You seem to be a social conservative.
I'm not the one voting for democrats or republicans, that's what I do about it.

Getting people to believe the election wasn't legit is the same as getting people to believe the election was stolen. Tons of people still think Trump colluded with Russia and then they stand on their high horse acting like Trumpers are such idiots for believing the election was stolen.

I don't disregard progressive ideals (at least the ones that make sense), I disregard policy that is bad with the intention of those ideals.
 

Ag3ma

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I'm not the one voting for democrats or republicans, that's what I do about it.
I'm sure that works out wonderfully for you, and makes such a huge difference. The Democrats and Republicans must be shaking in their boots.
 

dreng3

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If I throw a ball at a window 100 times and it doesn't break, why would it break the 101st time?
Very efficient way of demonstrating that you don't understand statistics, I'll grant you that. Also, data point of 1 vs data point of 100?

You don't think what Phoenixmgs wrote is the direct equivalent to the routine GOP $CANDIDATE is our last hope claims? The GOP perennially claims we're on the edge of collapse that can only be prevented if they win, Dems have just started taking up the same ploy. In both cases, it's to try to drive their voters to the polls with fear.
If a man tells me he's going to act like a despot I'm going to believe him. Essentially proof by mortification. +calling political opponents "vermin" and insulting someone for being assaulted is a pretty good sign of a bad person.
 

Phoenixmgs

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I'm sure that works out wonderfully for you, and makes such a huge difference. The Democrats and Republicans must be shaking in their boots.
I can only do what I can do.

Very efficient way of demonstrating that you don't understand statistics, I'll grant you that. Also, data point of 1 vs data point of 100?
As I said earlier:
Just because something can happen, doesn't mean it will. You can get killed on your way to vote, I guess people shouldn't vote then. This is the dumb logic you guys are using to try to prove your viewpoint, not me.
 

Silvanus

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Innocent until proven guilty.
Then say Al Capone was innocent. And mean it.

If some policy makes things worse than they currently are, I will trash the policy regardless if progressive or conservative.
Unless it's republican, in which case you'll endlessly leap to its defence, no matter how hopelessly destructive it is.
 

tstorm823

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are you telling us that it has not been routine for pretty much everyone to dig dirt on their opponents, for decades? Are you serious?

The end result of you trying to normalise ever-worsening conduct is that things will probably just get worse. If you want to play that game every time your side ups the ante, it just tells us that at core you have no real principles on this issue.
A) They didn't just dig dirt. Digging dirt is normal. Some dirt was real. The majority of it was outright fabricated. Even that's not that unusual for politics. But then that fabricated info was handed off through a half-dozen parties to make its way, laundered, back into the hands of US intelligence (some of whom knew it was paid for by Democrats but kept their mouths shut) to justify getting warrants to have the FBI spy on the opposing campaign. That's not just "digging dirt".

B) I'm not normalizing ever-worsening conduct. You're whitewashing the bad conduct of just one party. You accuse me of defending Trump all the time, but it's unreal how far you go to lick the Democrats boots from the other side of the ocean.
 

Phoenixmgs

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Then say Al Capone was innocent. And mean it.



Unless it's republican, in which case you'll endlessly leap to its defence, no matter how hopelessly destructive it is.
He was legally.

Nope, you guys post bills that really don't do anything acting like some group is literally losing their rights. Just like acting like the Roe overturn was gonna cause gay marriage to get looked at and overturned. It's the exaggeration and hyperbole I despise.
 

Ag3ma

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A) They didn't just dig dirt. Digging dirt is normal. Some dirt was real. The majority of it was outright fabricated. Even that's not that unusual for politics. But then that fabricated info was handed off through a half-dozen parties to make its way, laundered, back into the hands of US intelligence (some of whom knew it was paid for by Democrats but kept their mouths shut) to justify getting warrants to have the FBI spy on the opposing campaign. That's not just "digging dirt".
The DNC paid a company to look into connections between Trump and Moscow. That company subcontracted to an independent intelligence agent, with neither the agent nor DNC apparently aware of each other at the time. The DNC terminated the contract before completion, but the agent completed the work and sent it to British and American intelligence himself anyway. There's no evidence the agent fabricated anything, although he certainly included preliminary intel that has never been verified.

This has been very thoroughly scrutinised. You are attempting to blow it up into a fake conspiracy.

B) I'm not normalizing ever-worsening conduct. You're whitewashing the bad conduct of just one party. You accuse me of defending Trump all the time, but it's unreal how far you go to lick the Democrats boots from the other side of the ocean.
I understand that the gross failings of the the Republicans are an intense shame that you have problems processing clearly.
 

Ag3ma

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Just like acting like the Roe overturn was gonna cause gay marriage to get looked at and overturned. It's the exaggeration and hyperbole I despise.
You do know that Justice Clarence Thomas explicitly said in overturning Roe v. Wade that the ruling on gay marriage was now also an error and should be reconsidered, right? Why do you think supporters of gay marriage might have viewed an clearly stated criticism of the constitutionality of gay marriage by a Supreme Court Justice as a threat to gay marriage?

🤦‍♂️ fucking, fucking hell...

Thankfully, it was (hopefully) rendered moot shortly after because the Federal government confirmed gay marriage in a new law.
 

tstorm823

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The DNC paid a company to look into connections between Trump and Moscow. That company subcontracted to an independent intelligence agent, with neither the agent nor DNC apparently aware of each other at the time. The DNC terminated the contract before completion, but the agent completed the work and sent it to British and American intelligence himself anyway. There's no evidence the agent fabricated anything, although he certainly included preliminary intel that has never been verified.
It's not a conspiracy, it's genuinely worse than a conspiracy. To have a conspiracy, you need people to organize and agree to take certain actions, actions they'd likely not otherwise take, to reach a particular end. This required no planning or changing of behavior to reach that end, it's just a bunch of people acting in normal self-interest in a system so insulated from oversight that the end result looks like they planned it.

I'm sure the DNC hired a firm who hired an intelligence agent to try to get dirt in an impartial way. I'm sure that agent tried to use the best contacts he had to get that information. I'm sure he contact the FBI with honorable intentions. I'm sure the judge who signed warrants based on that intel did so reasonably. The issue here is that none of those people are really independent actors. The firm the DNC hired is just a bunch of Washington insiders, the agents sources were based in DC as well (some of them literally just political lobbyists), the FBI taking the information in is made of Washington insiders, the judge deciding is as well... every individual step seems reasonable, but it all took place in a system of concentrated institutional power without reasonable checks and balances, so the tiniest sprinkles of corruption (the sub-source just getting rumors from DC bathrooms, the FBI agents who knew the campaign connections and looked the other way) magnify to ridiculous results.

And if anyone criticizes the single political party that has built that concentration of power, insanely vulnerable to corruption, you can't make a single post about it without deflecting.
 

Silvanus

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He was legally.
Uh-huh. So you believe he was innocent, then?

Nope, you guys post bills that really don't do anything acting like some group is literally losing their rights. Just like acting like the Roe overturn was gonna cause gay marriage to get looked at and overturned. It's the exaggeration and hyperbole I despise.
And yet, women are losing abortion access rights, trans people are losing legal protections, various groups are losing discrimination protection, workers are losing workplace protections. Rights are being lost across the board-- you're just unaware or dismissive because it doesn't affect you personally.
 

dreng3

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As I said earlier:
Just because something can happen, doesn't mean it will. You can get killed on your way to vote, I guess people shouldn't vote then. This is the dumb logic you guys are using to try to prove your viewpoint, not me.
If a man tells me he's going to act like a despot I'm going to believe him. Essentially proof by mortification. +calling political opponents "vermin" and insulting someone for being assaulted is a pretty good sign of a bad person.
 

Thaluikhain

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Just because something can happen, doesn't mean it will. You can get killed on your way to vote, I guess people shouldn't vote then. This is the dumb logic you guys are using to try to prove your viewpoint, not me.
What was that quote by Franz Ferdinand, that someone might jump out of a bush now and shoot him, therefore he wasn't worried about going to Sarajevo?