Trump ordered to pay $350 million for fraudulent business practices in New York

tstorm823

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But in terms of historical appreciation, we might argue when assessing the president of the USA, whose job it is to make the USA a better place, the record rests more on what he did for the USA in policy than whether he waved his willy at White House visitors.
Ok, but he made the USA a worse place. The Great Society almost all failed, the few that "succeeded" are causing all of our current societies greatest economic woes (insane medical prices, inflated student debt, etc), Vietnam traumatized an entire generation, and I believe worse than anything, he started an era of fearmongering politics that continues to this day.
Trump, specifically.
Thank you, sir.
Trump is a lot of things. "Republican" is just one of multiple attributes applicable to him.
I think this argument is entirely moot at this point.
 

Bedinsis

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I think this argument is entirely moot at this point.
More like "pointless", but I obivously thought he referred to Trump. The key attribute of his being that he was a corrupt politician and the subject of that thread, not that he was a Republican, meaning there was no "reminder of how corrupt Republicans are", only as much as required for the post not to venture off topic. And Ag3ma's answer has not really changed my view. But he can feel free to correct me.
 

Ag3ma

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Ok, but he made the USA a worse place. The Great Society almost all failed...
Okay I'm not going through this argument again. I'm just going to point out that you are attempting to dispute the general consensus of experts in politics and history who compile these polls/surveys of best president. That's your prerogative, but I'm just saying that it's relatively hard to credit you're right and they are so wrong.

I believe worse than anything, he started an era of fearmongering politics that continues to this day.
I don't think he did at all. He's not the breaking of a dam that held back an unstoppable torrent, he's just a stretch of an already-flowing river. Fearmongering long predates LBJ (McCarthyism, anyone?). Negative campaigning has always existed (they were hardly nice to each other in the 1800s); you can argue it has got worse since the 1960s, but you can't hold one person responsible for both their contemporaries (as it was much wider), and the decision by countless successive campaigners to take it further. All those subsequent campaigners, they all chose that. They chose it because it worked, the public let it work, and that was always going to be exploited.
 

Ag3ma

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I think this argument is entirely moot at this point.
There's an entire preceding stream of discussion about Trump being corrupt in that thread that stands all on its own. In that context, I don't think a linking "in similar news..." style comment moving on to Menendez can reasonably qualify as some sort of deflection onto or sideswipe at the Republicans. And I suspect that's what Bednisis is pointing out.
 
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tstorm823

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Okay I'm not going through this argument again. I'm just going to point out that you are attempting to dispute the general consensus of experts in politics and history who compile these polls/surveys of best president. That's your prerogative, but I'm just saying that it's relatively hard to credit you're right and they are so wrong.

I don't think he did at all. He's not the breaking of a dam that held back an unstoppable torrent, he's just a stretch of an already-flowing river. Fearmongering long predates LBJ (McCarthyism, anyone?). Negative campaigning has always existed (they were hardly nice to each other in the 1800s); you can argue it has got worse since the 1960s, but you can't hold one person responsible for both their contemporaries (as it was much wider), and the decision by countless successive campaigners to take it further. All those subsequent campaigners, they all chose that. They chose it because it worked, the public let it work, and that was always going to be exploited.
The same set of people who praise Johnson for how great his presidency was are also the historians that would tell you that the political ad Daisy was a watershed moment in at least American politics, if not world politics. You can value their opinions, or you can not value their opinions, but no matter which way you cut it, the historical experts find themselves elevating a man they credit as the pioneer of sleazy attack ads.

When we as a culture are saying "that guy is a jerk, he brutally maligned his opponent in deeply manipulative ways, he's one of the best presidents in history" we encourage politicians to brutally malign their opponents in deeply manipulative ways. If we want better behavior, we have to be critical of the people who did the bad things in the first place. But Johnson's programs dumped federal money into the schools those historians worked at, they created a lot of public media including PBS and NPR, and I don't think all those things are bad, but neither media or academia is seemingly ever going to realize that they are what they are now because a deeply corrupt man was buying public opinion in bulk with taxpayer money.
 

Ag3ma

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When we as a culture are saying "that guy is a jerk, he brutally maligned his opponent in deeply manipulative ways, he's one of the best presidents in history" we encourage politicians to brutally malign their opponents in deeply manipulative ways.
Tough. That's the sort of decision a thorough, adult analysis just has to deal with.

If you want to set that one advert against, for instance, passing legislation to prevent the discriminatory and unjust disenfranchisement of a significant proportion of the population, then you have to understand that the advert dwindles to relative insignificance. To really push that argument, to question the provision of key rights to millions of people on the basis of saying mean things about political opponents...

Put it this way. Let's say Johnson declined to push through that voting rights legislation and let Congress stall it indefinitely as it was wont to do, but was nicer to Barry Goldwater. Do you think that trade-off, with years more of injustice dragging on for so many, would really have been a better outcome?
 

tstorm823

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Tough. That's the sort of decision a thorough, adult analysis just has to deal with.

If you want to set that one advert against, for instance, passing legislation to prevent the discriminatory and unjust disenfranchisement of a significant proportion of the population, then you have to understand that the advert dwindles to relative insignificance. To really push that argument, to question the provision of key rights to millions of people on the basis of saying mean things about political opponents...

Put it this way. Let's say Johnson declined to push through that voting rights legislation and let Congress stall it indefinitely as it was wont to do, but was nicer to Barry Goldwater. Do you think that trade-off, with years more of injustice dragging on for so many, would really have been a better outcome?
That is a textbook false dichotomy combined with poor counterfactual analysis. You can have the good things without the bad.

Do you really believe that if Lyndon Johnson didn't exist there wouldn't have been civil rights legislation in the 60s? Kennedy was already pushing those things, if he hadn't died we'd likely have the good results without Johnson being a jerk. The legislation was heavily disproportionately supported by Republicans, if Republicans had success in 1964, there'd likely have been more civil rights legislation passed. It was Johnson's wing of Johnson's party that was stalling.
 

Ag3ma

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That is a textbook false dichotomy combined with poor counterfactual analysis. You can have the good things without the bad.
No.

There's the cold, hard reality that LBJ did a large number of things, they are on the record and cannot be changed. If you want to appraise LBJ as a whole, you take the whole. You can't ignore the bad because of the good, or vice versa. This stuff happened and it all goes together, or any analysis is at best partial and at worst meaningless.

What you are proposing is wish-fulfllment fantasy.

Do you really believe that if Lyndon Johnson didn't exist there wouldn't have been civil rights legislation in the 60s? Kennedy was already pushing those things, if he hadn't died we'd likely have the good results without Johnson being a jerk.
So what? It was done by LBJ. He invested the time, effort and political capital to drive it through, so he gets the credit. Presidents ultimately get measured on their achievements, not the shouldas, couldas, wouldas of what didn't happen. Speculation that JFK might have pushed it through, or a later president, is thus meaningless. LBJ did it, and so to him the credit.
 

tstorm823

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LBJ did it, and so to him the credit.
Ok, then start crediting Trump for everything that went well from 2017-2020. He was the one who was there, he did those things. You're not allowed to even speculate that any of it might have happened without him.
 

Silvanus

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Ok, then start crediting Trump for everything that went well from 2017-2020. He was the one who was there, he did those things. You're not allowed to even speculate that any of it might have happened without him.
Not just 'things that went well at that time', remember-- there has to be an actual causative relationship with his actions.

((To be clear, although he does get the credit for the civil rights expansion, I don't think anything can outweigh Vietnam on Johnson's record. And note that blame here works in just the same way as credit for civil rights: it doesn't somehow let Johnson off the hook that Goldwater would also have brutalised Vietnam. Johnson did it, so to him the blame)).
 

tstorm823

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Not just 'things that went well at that time', remember-- there has to be an actual causative relationship with his actions.

((To be clear, although he does get the credit for the civil rights expansion, I don't think anything can outweigh Vietnam on Johnson's record. And note that blame here works in just the same way as credit for civil rights: it doesn't somehow let Johnson off the hook that Goldwater would also have brutalised Vietnam. Johnson did it, so to him the blame)).
Would Goldwater have brutalized Vietnam? He wasn't exceptionally hawkish, he campaigned in part on less involvement in Vietnam, he just also took the position that if you involve yourself in a war you commit to winning the war rather than throw people senselessly into a perpetual meat grinder.
 

Silvanus

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Would Goldwater have brutalized Vietnam? He wasn't exceptionally hawkish, he campaigned in part on less involvement in Vietnam, he just also took the position that if you involve yourself in a war you commit to winning the war rather than throw people senselessly into a perpetual meat grinder.
Barry Goldwater on Vietnam: "And I support, before anyone gets the wrong idea, as does my party, as do all Americans, the President's firm action in response. But I must point out that it was just that, I must point out that it was just that a response--an incident not a program or a new policy; a tactical reaction, not a new winning strategy.

Yes, all of us support the President in this strong, right action."

And for good measure, here he is suggesting more military action against Cuba after the Bay of Pigs;


A dove he ain't.
 
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Phoenixmgs

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And what you posted was devoid of fact. It was pure opinion.



Well, because I don't think it was wrong. But regardless: "it's up to the states" remains a tautology. The same statement would just be untrue pre-2022.



Access = the right, as far as people are practically concerned. When people discuss the 'right to abortion', they're talking about the legally unimpeded ability to access abortion. Which is what they had, and which has been taken away.
If you objectively look at Roe v Wade, it's factual that it didn't make legal or logical sense.

If you can't see how bad Roe was as a decision (legally and logically), then you obviously have extreme biases.

When people talk about rights, they means rights as if they are entitled to them by law. If you work at a place that needs a keycard to get in, you have access to said building, but that doesn't mean you have any right to access that building, that can be revoked at any time. Same with like any store like Walmart, they can ban you from the store at any time. The fact that you think having access to something means you have the right to it is just ridiculous.
 

Silvanus

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If you objectively look at Roe v Wade, it's factual that it didn't make legal or logical sense.
No, that would be an opinion.

But regardless, SCOTUS judgements very often use whatever interpretation suits their prejudices. They also did so in their ruling that overturned Roe.

When people talk about rights, they means rights as if they are entitled to them by law.
This whole paragraph is meaningless waffle. They had access to the service, legally unimpeded, before the ruling. Afterwards they lost it. That's unequivocally what people mean when they talk about this issue.
 
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Ag3ma

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Ok, then start crediting Trump for everything that went well from 2017-2020. He was the one who was there, he did those things. You're not allowed to even speculate that any of it might have happened without him.
To clarify, we should credit a president for what they did, but not necessarily for what happened. Although that is perhaps an ideal, and in many cases presidents will end up being better or worse received because a lot happened to go right or wrong for a country during their time in office. Just as a note, I also think a president can't claim credit just for slapping their signature on the bottom of legislation, because that's a routine job expectation. They can claim some credit depending on their active involvement in drafting or supporting bills.

That judicial/prison reform bill seems to have been well received, and he weighed in significantly on that. The obvious problem we have in assessing Trump is that a lot of what he did will not have shaken out in the long run. For instance, there were major foreign policy changes - it's nearly all too soon to say. The tax cuts were big, but whether they were a success in a wider sense seems mixed or unclear. There's Space Force. He stuffed SCOTUS, but that's both exceptionally partisan and too soon to say. He finally pulled the USA out of Afghanistan (even if it occurred under Biden). Sure, it was painful in the end, but lancing boils often is. He also got some ISIS leader killed, I guess. I'm sure there was also a load of relatively minor stuff that was also fine to good, because governments do an awful lot to take notice of it all.
 
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Dirty Hipsters

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To my knowledge, Trump doesn't flash his penis at people in the White House. Johnson was substantially more odious.
Trump is the kind of person that if he had a large penis he would look for any excuse to whip it out and brag about it. That's how we all know that he has a small dick.
 
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Phoenixmgs

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No, that would be an opinion.

But regardless, SCOTUS judgements very often use whatever interpretation suits their prejudices. They also did so in their ruling that overturned Roe.



This whole paragraph is meaningless waffle. They had access to the service, legally unimpeded, before the ruling. Afterwards they lost it. That's unequivocally what people mean when they talk about this issue.
Why is an abortion OK at say 10 weeks (according to Roe) but not allowed at 30 weeks because of right to privacy? How would it be any less private at 30 weeks than it is at 10 weeks? It never made sense.

Rights are rights given by the constitution. Not just things you are given access to. Hence from here https://www.oyez.org/cases/1971/70-18
Does the Constitution recognize a woman's right to terminate her pregnancy by abortion?
 

Ag3ma

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Trump is the kind of person that if he had a large penis he would look for any excuse to whip it out and brag about it. That's how we all know that he has a small dick.
Didn't the porn actress say it was oddly shaped, like a mushroom?
 

Piscian

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Update:

Trump has filed a "notice of appeal". Id have to wait for someone more qualified to clarify the details, but I believe the news is misrepresenting this as an actual appeal, I imagine because it sounds more *EXPLOSIVE*.

Essentially, if I understand correctly, it merely starts the appeal process which gives the appealer 6 month window to formerly appeal. The clock is still ticking. He has until 3/25 to pay up, post appeal bond, or they can start picking up his furniture. The appeals court will not pick up the case until he actually appeals, which requires bond. In the mms defense that exact detail is buried in the articles, its just not clear in the headline.

Hopefully legal eagle or somebody will explain the nuisance better.

I suspect this is more to save face, while he figures out his money woes. Either that or his legal team literally doesn't know how appeals work. Anything is possible I guess.