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Phoenixmgs

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Where the hell did ''construction worker" come from? Are you just wholly playing to stereotypes now?



I'm sorry!? Please enlighten me with an example sentence in which 'everybody' refers to a single person.



....often in line with their gender, and not with their assigned sex. Kind of proving my point.



It's already been shown numerous times that a male/female identity, separate from bio sex-- what we term "gender" or "gender identity"-- is not a modern invention at all, but at least thousands of years old.
You said "People can usually tell the sex of other people /who abide by traditional societal gender roles in appearance/. But no, if they encounter people who don't fit that (stereo)typical mould, usually people can't reliably tell."

And then I said a construction worker (traditionally a guy with construction clothes) is easily to tell sex even though guys are usually in construction and construction clothes are associated with clothes men wear.

I didn't say that. I said that "everybody" is grammatically a singular but refers to multiple people. Much like "they" in the example is said to be grammatically a singular by the linguistic scholars but is referring to multiple people. You keep saying that I'm challenging and saying what the scholars said is wrong and why you should believe me over them, which for like the 10th time, I never said.
The words everybody and everyone are pronouns that describe a group of people, but grammatically they are singular.

But according to you, you say sex doesn't have any of these appearance traits that's directly related to sex.

Early uses of the word gender in reference to men or women tended to view it as one and the same as biological sex. According to The Oxford English Dictionary, the word gender had been used as early as the 1300s to describe categories of people. The Oxford English Dictionary’s earliest record of using the word to specifically refer to men or women, though, did not occur until 1474, when someone used it in a letter to describe what the writer refers to as the masculine gender. Over the next centuries, when gender was used to refer to men or women, it was often synonymous with biological sex. However, according to the Merriam-Webster Dictionary, during the early twentieth century, the word sex became more associated with sexual intercourse. As discussions of sexual intercourse are largely taboo in the US, people began to use the word gender in its place to refer to a person’s status as a male or female by the end of the twentieth century, a practice that is still largely common as of 2022. However, in the 1950s, gender psychologists who studied differences between the sexes began to reframe gender as something entirely separate from biological sex.
 

Silvanus

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You said "People can usually tell the sex of other people /who abide by traditional societal gender roles in appearance/. But no, if they encounter people who don't fit that (stereo)typical mould, usually people can't reliably tell."

And then I said a construction worker (traditionally a guy with construction clothes) is easily to tell sex even though guys are usually in construction and construction clothes are associated with clothes men wear.
Because a set of work clothes don't affect the visual characteristics associated with sex of the individual.

Take a person wearing gender-neutral or interchangeable clothes. If they don't abide by traditional appearance standards-- in hair, skincare routine, etc-- you can't reliably tell.

I didn't say that. I said that "everybody" is grammatically a singular but refers to multiple people. Much like "they" in the example is said to be grammatically a singular by the linguistic scholars but is referring to multiple people. You keep saying that I'm challenging and saying what the scholars said is wrong and why you should believe me over them, which for like the 10th time, I never said.
The words everybody and everyone are pronouns that describe a group of people, but grammatically they are singular.
But we're discussing whether they refer to multiple people or not. That's the entire discussion.

But according to you, you say sex doesn't have any of these appearance traits that's directly related to sex.
Strawman. Go back and read it again.

Early uses of the word gender in reference to men or women tended to view it as one and the same as biological sex. According to The Oxford English Dictionary, the word gender [...]
This is about the etymology of the English word 'gender'. But the history of a masculine or feminine identity, separate and apart from biological sex, is what we're discussing. What we would now refer to as "gender identity" or "gender".

Similarly, you can't argue that the word 'gay' is only XYZ years old, so therefore people weren't gay before. They were. But they had different language around it.
 

Phoenixmgs

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Because a set of work clothes don't affect the visual characteristics associated with sex of the individual.

Take a person wearing gender-neutral or interchangeable clothes. If they don't abide by traditional appearance standards-- in hair, skincare routine, etc-- you can't reliably tell.



But we're discussing whether they refer to multiple people or not. That's the entire discussion.



Strawman. Go back and read it again.



This is about the etymology of the English word 'gender'. But the history of a masculine or feminine identity, separate and apart from biological sex, is what we're discussing. What we would now refer to as "gender identity" or "gender".

Similarly, you can't argue that the word 'gay' is only XYZ years old, so therefore people weren't gay before. They were. But they had different language around it.
If a woman is wearing clothes that men usually wear in a profession that mainly comprise men can be distinguished as a woman, then how can't you tell sex from appearance (that isn't tied to hair styles, clothing, etc.)?

And just read it. How is the "they" not referring to at least 2 people?
Each man hurried . . . till they drew near . . . where William and his darling were lying together.’

People, who speak english at least, never used pronouns to refer to masculine or feminine identity until recently.
 

Silvanus

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If a woman is wearing clothes that men usually wear in a profession that mainly comprise men can be distinguished as a woman [...]
They only reliably can if they fit into (stereo)typically feminine appearance traits. The clothing is irrelevant.

And just read it. How is the "they" not referring to at least 2 people?
Each man hurried . . . till they drew near . . . where William and his darling were lying together.’
Look. Just tell me why I should believe you over linguistic experts, and we can settle it. So what's the reason? Credentials, anything like that is acceptable.

People, who speak english at least, never used pronouns to refer to masculine or feminine identity until recently.
Nice dodge, but we're not just talking about etymology in the English-speaking modern world, we're talking about the concept of masculine and feminine identities separate and apart from biological sex. That's ancient.
 

Phoenixmgs

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They only reliably can if they fit into (stereo)typically feminine appearance traits. The clothing is irrelevant.



Look. Just tell me why I should believe you over linguistic experts, and we can settle it. So what's the reason? Credentials, anything like that is acceptable.



Nice dodge, but we're not just talking about etymology in the English-speaking modern world, we're talking about the concept of masculine and feminine identities separate and apart from biological sex. That's ancient.
You mean feminine appearance traits that are directly related to sex?

Again, just read the line. Did one man or multiple men draw near?

No, we're talking about how people use pronouns.
 

Silvanus

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You mean feminine appearance traits that are directly related to sex?
The appearance traits that correlate and are widely associated with one sex, and yet can also crop up on members of the opposite sex. Including broad body shape, hair, skin condition.

Again, just read the line. Did one man or multiple men draw near?
Again, why should i believe you over the linguistic experts?

No, we're talking about how people use pronouns.
In that specific sub-discussion, we were not.
 

Phoenixmgs

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The appearance traits that correlate and are widely associated with one sex, and yet can also crop up on members of the opposite sex. Including broad body shape, hair, skin condition.



Again, why should i believe you over the linguistic experts?



In that specific sub-discussion, we were not.
And when you look at a person as a whole with several traits (vs just a singular thing), it's hard not to tell sex. Maybe a woman has man hands (Seinfeld episode) but all her other features are of her sex.

Do you not believe yourself in reading a sentence?

That's what I was and why I brought it up. People, in English, never used masculine/feminine identities for determining pronoun use.