US 2024 Presidential Election

Silvanus

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Reading over this post, I think the main thrust of my argument is that you should be able to see what is wrong with act utilitarianism if you have a sociological imagination. What if everyone justified their decisions in such a way without the guardrails imposed by considerations of human rights nor the signposts from various traditional values such as honesty, fairness, and so forth (that we can yet evaluate and reevaluate if they look like they might cause harm in some cases or indeed in every case for some of the more controversial traditions)? Even if done perfectly, it can have bad results. And if done imperfectly, it can be horrible. So we can say that in the long term, act utilitarianism seems like it fails based on its own foundational principle. It is not the best way to pursue utility.
I see zero reason those guardrails cannot still exist for an act utilitarian. Why would they not come into play as factors considered by the individual? Rule utilitarians do not have a monopoly on the concept of broad moral principles.

An act calculation might give rise to a reevaluation of a rule, but it has hardly 'taken precedence'. E.g. abortion: it is better to say that anyone should be able to have an abortion than to evaluate each abortion for its effect on utility and allow or disallow on that basis.
If an act calculation has given rise to an exception, then that's an acknowledgement that the rule was not appropriate for the situation. If the rule is reevaluated in such a way as to carve out exceptions, it edges further away from being a rule and further towards being a description for a series of act calculations. A rule is only a rule if it disregards circumstance at least most of the time.

That is not to say that one should not consider the consequences of their actions, only that they needn't be reconsidering the morality of theft every time they visit a relative.
This description of what an act utilitarian does is sort of absurd. Like saying someone who believes in the scientific method must actively reevaluate thermodynamics every time they eat or walk down the street. We can still have functional thought processes.

It is if you're operating from first principles every time and want to do it honestly and optimally. Act utilitarianism demands not just that you consider consequences but that you do the best thing as far as you can tell. Ironically, that perfectionism itself makes it more prone to serious error; there are situations that are rather uncontroversially acceptable. But what if, by sacrificing some principle or value or even person(s), you might do better than just acceptable? What if the "hard choice" is really the right thing to do? The rule utilitarian will tend to reject these unless given a very good reason not to do so, whereas the act utilitarian will be tempted-- especially if the 'sacrifice' is not something important to them but the benefit is. The result may be an atrocity.
So the rule utilitarian will tend towards complacency and protection of the status quo. Upheaval and violence are bad as a rule, so confronting oppressive authority is also always bad. We must not evaluate on a case by case basis, lest we make an error, after all.

That is not to say rule utilitarians are not capable of the same, but they have some handy signposts warning them of the danger ("Maybe don't do atrocities, it's probably going to be bad"). The act utilitarian only has the abstract principle of utility which oughtto lead them in the right direction, you would think, but easily may not because it is to be considered in its purest (and vaguest) form.
Everyone has those signposts and is free to consider broad principles. And act / rule utilitarians are both subject to abstraction; the difference being rule utilitarians will extrapolate the conclusions of those abstractions much more broadly and without individual regard. If anything that's a much greater danger of abstraction; the propensity for it to bulldoze over the reality.

Act utilitarians can find themselves justifying torture, for example, in certain specific cases, like to get information that will stop some plot to bomb lots of people. Rule utilitarians are more likely to notice that being able to do torture effectively enough that it would reliably give the desired result in such a case-- getting the information required to stop the bomb plot-- requires expertise. And that expertise requires practice. And that practice means living in a society which tortures people somewhat regularly. Which is probably not the best approach to maximizing happiness and so forth-- just a guess.
You've just made an act calculation! Normalisation is also another factor literally anyone can take into account.

Say you live in a village. The village is terrorized by a dragon. It periodically eats the villagers or burns a building. Individually, none of the villagers can solve the problem of the dragon-- adventurism is not effective. Collectively, they may be able to stop the dragon in some way. But they are disunited and afraid and the dragon seems to target the houses of those that are not as obsequious. At any given time, the villagers have a number of options on how to spend their time over and above doing what they need to survive. For example, they can try to cheer up the families of those who have lost someone to the dragon. They can work hard and produce food and have lots of sex in order to have babies to replace those lost to the dragon (this might otherwise be phrased as "they can be good livestock"). They can pretend that there is nothing to be done about the dragon except learning how best to cope with it. They could also try organizing themselves to solve the problem of the dragon-- this will not have any benefits to utility until the problem is actually solved; the dragon decisively dealt with in some manner. Such organizing is hard. It involves many steps and risks; getting enough people on board, figuring out what to do once they are. This takes time which could be spent doing anything else. And then there is the possibility of reprisal. The utility function for these villagers is going to have local maxima in which the effects of the dragon's violence are mitigated but the dragon itself remains unchallenged; attempting to make progress on solving the problem comes at the expense of utility and will only have benefits assuming a particular series of events follows in which others also make choices which move away from the local maxima of the utility function. So no proper act utilitarian calculation is going to tell the villagers to organize themselves to solve the problem of the dragon; they will instead be directed to the best way in the short term to suffer its periodic killing and destruction but never to stop it. The status quo is maintained.
I have no idea why you've decided that act calculations would come to such a conclusion. You've added very strange moral weightings in order to push the hypothetical conclusion in that direction-- short term over long term, risk aversion, etc. An act utilitarian can absolutely conclude that the long term outweighs the short term, or that the risk is justified.

It's a rule utilitarian who is likelier to maintain the status quo in the face of oppression. Violence and murder are usually not the answer, so a rule would disregard the abominable situation they're in and apply that blanket approach. It's more than a little telling that in order to illustrate the benefits of rule utilitarianism, you've given an individual set of circumstances and come to an individual conclusion about what would be best-- an act calculation and categorically not the application of a rule.

But calculation is also prone to error. And power will justify itself using whatever tools are available. So you will see justifications of the kind, "yes, imperialism has some downsides but now India has railroads, so who can say really whether the British Empire was a good or bad thing?" Mill vacillated on his opinion of the colonial administration of India; but he was at least capable of thinking about it. Act utilitarians-- once it has started-- will take it as a given. Should it end? Well, gosh, that would be terribly disruptive. Rule utilitarians have a much easier time justifying human rights and avoiding (or at least recognizing) certain moral quandaries because in a funny way they have more time and reason to think about the finer details and grander possibilities. Or to put it another way, and quoting Mill in On Liberty they can "regard utility as the ultimate appeal on all ethical questions; but ... utility in the largest sense, grounded on the permanent interests of man as a progressive being" rather than a neat calculation for each individual case uninformed by the rest of them.
Of course, Empire was more often justified on broad sweeping generalisations than it was on individual effects. The impact on individuals was overlooked by supposed wider societal benefits-- circumstances overridden by ill-thought generalisations. Act utilitarians absolutely will not "take it as a given"-- constant evaluation and scepticism is core to the approach.

Also, "they have more time and reason to think about the finer details and grander possibilities"? What was it you said about hubris?

Rule utilitarians have the categorical imperative (and relevant modifications of it) in their toolkit. What would the world be like if everyone acted this way? What would the world be like if well-meaning people all acted in this way?
Questions that show their inadequacy upon a second glance. What would the world be like if everyone was a doctor or teacher? It would fall apart! Clearly becoming one is wrong as a rule.

Both of these questions are irrelevant to the act utilitarian. "What if we had a radically different economic system?" is not a question that should even occur to someone who is really an act utilitarian. Why dedicate any resources to pursuing that when you can donate all your money to Oxfam and volunteering at the soup kitchen? Do both? But that is bad to the extent that you're wasting time and other resources on revolutionary self-education and organizing which, let's face it, is probably not going to come to fruition any sooner or later (or at all) based on the actions of just you. But if everyone thinks that way, nothing will ever change-- at least, not in that direction.
You've made an act calculation here (with your own personal weightings, and seemingly designed to fail), produced a conclusion you don't like, and assumed everyone else would come to the same one.

These questions occur to anyone (and can be evaluated by anyone) with a somewhat transgressive or challenging outlook. Rule utilitarians do not have a monopoly on that.

An act utilitarian can weigh the long term benefits and risks and come to different conclusions. A rule utilitarian would approach the question, "what if we had a radically different system", without looking at the circumstances or merits of the cases-- and must apply their conclusions equally to Bourbon France and to socialist Cuba. If overthrowing one is good, then overthrowing both must be! And if overthrowing one is bad, we should overthrow neither!
 
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Thaluikhain

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I confess, I don't know enough about the details. I trust Trump to have the right intentions.
That would explain it.

ITMT, doing nothing seems a formula for destruction.
Assuming that it does (it could, instead, be a legitimate problem, but a more minor one), that something must be done does not mean that being this is something, this must be done. Bad solutions to real problems can lead to really bad problems.
 
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Because we are absolutely convinced that not letting "the free market" control every aspect of our lives is the slippery slope to COMMUNISM, and not letting the rich get richer off the backs of the hoi polloi will lead to gun confiscation and bread lines and secret police uttering "papers, please" in a German accent.
I blame the north and south poles for why humanity can’t find any fucking balance. Ever.
 

Phoenixmgs

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The manufacturers aren't blameless, and neither is the government, but it really is the insurances that deserve the most blame, and it has everything to do with not paying the cost on paper. Insurances (in tandem with PBMs) negotiate ridiculous discounts with the manufacturers specifically in the form of rebates.

This is a not particularly exaggerated hypothetical, I have been behind the counter of a pharmacy, I have seen numbers. You can have a drug that's actual price should be $10, it's probably manufactured for like 50 cents if that. Nice 95% margin on that. The insurances know it's cheap to make, they demand a 99% discount on the product, and they control almost all the sales, so instead of telling them to pound sand, the manufacturer lists the price at $1000 and gives them the 99% discount and still makes their desired profit. The insurance pays the pharmacy on your behalf, the pharmacy pays the distributor, the distributor pays the manufacturer, and then the manufacturer pays back the insurance, and each of those entities is making a fraction of 1% of the money being passed literally in a circle because they are making a perfectly reasonable profit on what would have been a fair market price. There's obviously collusion with the manufacturers to do this, so it may seem silly to focus on the insurances, but they are the beneficiaries of this system, specifically because it makes it impossible to afford medicine without insurance. They have the leverage of collective bargaining power, and then they use that leverage to demand care providers and drug companies drive more people to them. It is pure racketeering, and a century ago would have been busted up by the federal government, but the structure of this mirrors Medicare in many ways, so there's little political will to break it up even before the lobbying starts.
I either didn't realize or forgot the insurance companies own/run the PBMs. Also, I don't think the state run healthcare can negotiate (or at least to the same level of insurance companies) because I know at least one state would basically bankrupt itself if it covered ozempic.

The prices for drugs are cheaper everywhere else because the government (eg. UK) is allowed to negotiate prices under their M4A.

Hayekian capitalism states that the government should never be allowed to do this because it's 'not capitalism'. Other countries never fell for his nonsense like American did.

America does not allow for cheaper prices because they ascribe to one version of Capitalism. And, like most Hayekian concepts, it steals from the poor to give to the rich
Read tstorm's post, it has not much to do with capitalism.

You gonna admit you were wrong about abortion yet or show evidence that covid lockdowns saved lives?

It's amazing that every other first world country has somehow figured out how to make it work but it's just too darn complicated for the so-called Greatest Country in the World...

Maybe all those other countries just got lucky? Or maybe we're just such special little guys that the things that work for every other country just doesn't work for us because we're just too awesome?
I didn't say it's complicated, just pointing out what the problem is. It's like people for the cancelling of student debt, and I'm like 'but it's not fixing the actual problem, why don't we fix that?' Just saying to do M4A with the current system isn't going to fix the problem. First, fix the problem, then do M4A.
 

Silvanus

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I either didn't realize or forgot the insurance companies own/run the PBMs. Also, I don't think the state run healthcare can negotiate (or at least to the same level of insurance companies) because I know at least one state would basically bankrupt itself if it covered ozempic.
State healthcare services routinely negotiate drug prices. Ozempic costs 1,300% more to US customers than it does to the NHS.

I didn't say it's complicated, just pointing out what the problem is. It's like people for the cancelling of student debt, and I'm like 'but it's not fixing the actual problem, why don't we fix that?' Just saying to do M4A with the current system isn't going to fix the problem. First, fix the problem, then do M4A.
The problem is the profit-motivated private care/ insurance system. That is the direct driver of these obscene costs.
 

Phoenixmgs

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State healthcare services routinely negotiate drug prices. Ozempic costs 1,300% more to US customers than it does to the NHS.



The problem is the profit-motivated private care/ insurance system. That is the direct driver of these obscene costs.
If ozempic's list price is say $1,000 and it gets negotiated down to $100 and $100 is the normal price and that's what a state would pay as well, then how would that bankrupt the state healthcare?
 

Seanchaidh

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If the rule is reevaluated in such a way as to carve out exceptions, it edges further away from being a rule and further towards being a description for a series of act calculations.
no, it's just a rule with a different scope.
 

Silvanus

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no, it's just a rule with a different scope.
Interesting! What "rule" allows for the overthrowing of the status quo, but not the replacement of the situation that replaces it? You know, keeping in mind that you cannot appeal to the individual circumstances of each one.
 

Seanchaidh

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Interesting! What "rule" allows for the overthrowing of the status quo, but not the replacement of the situation that replaces it? You know, keeping in mind that you cannot appeal to the individual circumstances of each one.
clean that second sentence up so that I know what you're talking about.
 

Silvanus

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If ozempic's list price is say $1,000 and it gets negotiated down to $100 and $100 is the normal price and that's what a state would pay as well, then how would that bankrupt the state healthcare?
It wouldn't. That's my point.

State healthcare systems can negotiate drug prices perfectly well. This is an example of a state healthcare system being willing and able to negotiate, while a private healthcare system doesn't, and the private healthcare system ends up getting far worse value for money.
 

Silvanus

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clean that second sentence up so that I know what you're talking about.
You'll recall earlier you argued that act utilitarianism would never lead to the challenging/overthrowing of an abominable status quo (the dragon).

I argued something similar about rule utilitarianism. A rule that revolution is justified and moral would apply equally to Batista as to Castro. It is the set of individual circumstances that allows us to distinguish when it is right-- an act calculation, not a rule approach.

My (poorly worded) question was an invitation to design a rule that allows for the overthrow of Batista and not the overthrow of Castro.
 

Trunkage

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Read tstorm's post, it has not much to do with capitalism.
I'm assuming youre oversimplifying again.

The US's version of Capitalism is very different from the rest of the world. No one wants the US's version because we can see how destructive it is

You gonna admit you were wrong about abortion yet or show evidence that covid lockdowns saved lives?
If the vaccine were ever like what the current laws against abortion are, every single person in America would be screaming out in disgust
 

tstorm823

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The US's version of Capitalism is very different from the rest of the world. No one wants the US's version because we can see how destructive it is
You really ought to learn that everything you think you know about the US is wrong.
 

Phoenixmgs

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It wouldn't. That's my point.

State healthcare systems can negotiate drug prices perfectly well. This is an example of a state healthcare system being willing and able to negotiate, while a private healthcare system doesn't, and the private healthcare system ends up getting far worse value for money.
A state is saying if they cover ozempic, they'd go bankrupt. So either ozempic costs way too much or the state can't negotiate.

I'm assuming youre oversimplifying again.

The US's version of Capitalism is very different from the rest of the world. No one wants the US's version because we can see how destructive it is


If the vaccine were ever like what the current laws against abortion are, every single person in America would be screaming out in disgust
It's usually not capitalism's fault for stuff going wrong in the US and yet people blame capitalism.

What are you even talking about? You said abortion was unique and the only procedure not protected by privacy and that's completely not true as I listed 2 NFL players that had to go to Europe for treatments because the US doesn't allow them. Also you keep claiming how many people needed to die for me to be in favor of lockdowns but you provided no proof that lockdowns saved lives.
 

Seanchaidh

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You'll recall earlier you argued that act utilitarianism would never lead to the challenging/overthrowing of an abominable status quo (the dragon).

I argued something similar about rule utilitarianism. A rule that revolution is justified and moral would apply equally to Batista as to Castro. It is the set of individual circumstances that allows us to distinguish when it is right-- an act calculation, not a rule approach.

My (poorly worded) question was an invitation to design a rule that allows for the overthrow of Batista and not the overthrow of Castro.
ok.

I'm not saying this is the best way, but an obvious way is: communist revolution is good and anti-communist counter-revolution is bad. that's not an act calculation.

it remains that the steps one would take to do either are a series of acts, not just one.
 

Silvanus

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A state is saying if they cover ozempic, they'd go bankrupt. So either ozempic costs way too much or the state can't negotiate.
A US state? Which services are you referring to here, why would the state gov be negotiating?

Medicare was unable to negotiate drug prices until August 2022. It then gained the ability to negotiate for some drug prices, though those prices wouldn't go into effect until 2026. And they don't include Ozempic.

NB: the cost for drugs that did become subject to negotiation lowered by 35-75%. So negotiation obviously works.
 

Seanchaidh

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Ok yeah, makes sense
Reminder that Person of the Year is about the biggest newsmaker/impact, not an endorsement nor a moral/value judgment.
Does it make that much sense? Seems to be reflective of media navel-gazing more than actual newsworthiness. Wins an election by default against a moribund Democratic Party and it seems like his administration will be a circus like last time and at least as much of a bonanza for the oligarchs as any other US presidency. Why not just have the incoming US president win every four years?