It's ok to be angry about capitalism

Recommended Videos

BrawlMan

Lover of beat'em ups.
Legacy
Mar 10, 2016
34,870
14,290
118
Detroit, Michigan
Country
United States of America
Gender
Male
I didn't say that. Just that they aren't inherently barbaric like the Russians are and that on the whole I'm rooting against Russia more than I'm rooting against China.
Ok then.

That said, both government can get equally fucked as far as I am concerned.

But they are further away from Europe, which makes such a proposition quite attractive from European point of view.

They are also significantly less belligerant, making them less of a threat to other countries, even if they are similarly repressive inside.
That is only the positive spin anyone can provide. China can still fuck off.
 

Seanchaidh

Elite Member
Legacy
Mar 21, 2009
6,533
3,914
118
Country
United States of America
Ah, western chauvinism. Never change.

Actually, no. Please change. Be better.
 

Hades

Elite Member
Mar 8, 2013
3,255
2,494
118
Country
The Netherlands
Ah, western chauvinism. Never change.

Actually, no. Please change. Be better.
Should western chauvinists change into frauds who think loony dictators can start any war, commit any war crime or atrocity against their own citizens as long as they claim to hate the west? And that at the same time the lives of everyone in the non western world can be sacrificed on behalf of those dictators as long as it gives the naughty west a bad day?
 

Seanchaidh

Elite Member
Legacy
Mar 21, 2009
6,533
3,914
118
Country
United States of America
Should western chauvinists change into frauds who think loony dictators can start any war, commit any war crime or atrocity against their own citizens as long as they claim to hate the west? And that at the same time the lives of everyone in the non western world can be sacrificed on behalf of those dictators as long as it gives the naughty west a bad day?
you should totally continue fantasizing about nuclear powers going to war over natural gas
 

Hades

Elite Member
Mar 8, 2013
3,255
2,494
118
Country
The Netherlands
you should totally continue fantasizing about nuclear powers going to war over natural gas
Oh I will. I like fantasizing about Russians getting their teeth kicked in. Doesn't mean it will happen but its nice to think about considering their abysmal conduct in both the present and the past.
 

Seanchaidh

Elite Member
Legacy
Mar 21, 2009
6,533
3,914
118
Country
United States of America
Oh I will. I like fantasizing about Russians getting their teeth kicked in. Doesn't mean it will happen but its nice to think about considering their abysmal conduct in both the present and the past.
It's telling that you have to make up things for me to believe. And then you follow it with your own views that are even stupider than the words you put in my mouth.
 

Thaluikhain

Elite Member
Legacy
Jan 16, 2010
20,142
4,508
118
Oh I will. I like fantasizing about Russians getting their teeth kicked in.
The Russians most responsible aren't the ones doing the fighting, mind. A lot of conscript or otherwise induced to fight people getting their teeth kicked in, though a lot of them are committing smaller scale atrocities.
 

Hades

Elite Member
Mar 8, 2013
3,255
2,494
118
Country
The Netherlands
It's telling that you have to make up things for me to believe. And then you follow it with your own views that are even stupider than the words you put in my mouth.
Not really. Its merely a fact that Russia under Putin simply isn't any different then the horror regimes of the Tsars and the Soviets. That's three strikes. They're out. Nothing stupid about noticing the pattern.

And considering you consistently play defense for Russia(combined with a rabbit hatred for the west) you're hardly one to claim people are putting words into your mouth when they notice it. Not that I specifically name dropped you when I mentioned that very weird group that's willing to white wash any atrocity as long as the west isn't doing it.
 
  • Like
Reactions: BrawlMan

Agema

Overhead a rainbow appears... in black and white
Legacy
Mar 3, 2009
10,984
7,945
118

So, Meta earns 10% of its income from fraudulent advertising.

Meta knows much of this is fraudulent advertising, but doesn't want to do too much about it because it's so good for its revenues. So think on it: Meta is making a ton of money helping criminals and con-men steal money from its customers. Meta likes to "disincentivise" adverisers it thinks are more than averagely fraudulent by charging them extra money, which of course incentivises Meta to keep them by making them more profitable. In fact, Meta capped the amount of scam advertising its internal teams were allowed to investigate at 0.15% total company revenue (thus about 1.5% of its estimated fraud revenue).
 

thebobmaster

Elite Member
Legacy
Apr 5, 2020
4,396
4,236
118
Country
United States

Seanchaidh

Elite Member
Legacy
Mar 21, 2009
6,533
3,914
118
Country
United States of America
Not really. Its merely a fact that Russia under Putin simply isn't any different then the horror regimes of the Tsars and the Soviets. That's three strikes. They're out. Nothing stupid about noticing the pattern.

And considering you consistently play defense for Russia(combined with a rabbit hatred for the west) you're hardly one to claim people are putting words into your mouth when they notice it. Not that I specifically name dropped you when I mentioned that very weird group that's willing to white wash any atrocity as long as the west isn't doing it.
I blame America for what it does wrong. Ooh, scary.
 

PsychedelicDiamond

Wild at Heart and weird on top
Legacy
Jan 30, 2011
2,382
1,347
118
Not really. Its merely a fact that Russia under Putin simply isn't any different then the horror regimes of the Tsars and the Soviets. That's three strikes. They're out. Nothing stupid about noticing the pattern.

And considering you consistently play defense for Russia(combined with a rabbit hatred for the west) you're hardly one to claim people are putting words into your mouth when they notice it. Not that I specifically name dropped you when I mentioned that very weird group that's willing to white wash any atrocity as long as the west isn't doing it.
I'm not denying any of the human rights abuses commited in and by the Soviet Union, but it was, for most of its existence, a much more humane society than Tsarist Russia or what Russia has turned to now after Yeltsin and Putin, which is in man ways a restoration of Tsarist Russia.
 
  • Like
Reactions: BrawlMan

Hades

Elite Member
Mar 8, 2013
3,255
2,494
118
Country
The Netherlands
I blame America for what it does wrong. Ooh, scary.
Which in your case Ukraine not wanting to be Russia's puppet state also being something the US does ''wrong''. Can imagine most neighbors of Russia would find that line of thought pretty scary. If they don't want to be subjugated by Russia again then that's somehow america's fault.
 

Seanchaidh

Elite Member
Legacy
Mar 21, 2009
6,533
3,914
118
Country
United States of America
Which in your case Ukraine not wanting to be Russia's puppet state also being something the US does ''wrong''.
I'm not particularly interested in discoursing about this with someone who apparently believes the only legitimate expression of Ukrainian public opinion is anti-Russian despite the Maidan protests never even achieving majority support. But fine, here you go:

Ukraine quite literally was not Russia's puppet state and the United States saw fit to intervene in its politics anyway. Yanukovych wanted to join the EU, but the EU wanted to impose harsh economic restructuring (privatization/elimination of public services) that would have been very painful to the people of Ukraine on top of destroying Ukraine's trade with Russia. Of course, this is all more than a decade after the United States intervened in a Russian election for Boris Yeltsin who had three years earlier bombarded his own parliament with the support of the Clinton administration in order to prevent his impeachment.

The state of Russia today is largely the fault of the United States, both for its many provocations, unwillingness to engage diplomatically, and its great variety of direct and indirect manipulations (including the above), the handling of privatization (the birth of the much discussed oligarch class; that was done at the direction of the United States and its subservient international institutions) and so on. Similar dismantling and privatization was done in Ukraine, of course, which is why there is an oligarch class there as well. The transition to capitalism was a disaster for the entire former Soviet bloc from which they have not yet fully recovered, and still that was not enough for the United States which wants ever more with a hunger that can never be sated; they did the ideological thing and got a bunch of rich folk to dominate their society, but they're not OUR rich folk.

Francis Fukuyama's idea that the collapse of the Soviet Union meant "the end of history" is all the more laughable in the context of continued and escalating predatory behavior by the imperial core. We've got post-historical genocides going on.
 

Hades

Elite Member
Mar 8, 2013
3,255
2,494
118
Country
The Netherlands
I'm not particularly interested in discoursing about this with someone who apparently believes the only legitimate expression of Ukrainian public opinion is anti-Russian despite the Maidan protests never even achieving majority support. But fine, here you go:

Ukraine quite literally was not Russia's puppet state and the United States saw fit to intervene in its politics anyway. Yanukovych wanted to join the EU, but the EU wanted to impose harsh economic restructuring (privatization/elimination of public services) that would have been very painful to the people of Ukraine on top of destroying Ukraine's trade with Russia. Of course, this is all more than a decade after the United States intervened in a Russian election for Boris Yeltsin who had three years earlier bombarded his own parliament with the support of the Clinton administration in order to prevent his impeachment.

The state of Russia today is largely the fault of the United States, both for its many provocations, unwillingness to engage diplomatically, and its great variety of direct and indirect manipulations (including the above), the handling of privatization (the birth of the much discussed oligarch class; that was done at the direction of the United States and its subservient international institutions) and so on. Similar dismantling and privatization was done in Ukraine, of course, which is why there is an oligarch class there as well. The transition to capitalism was a disaster for the entire former Soviet bloc from which they have not yet fully recovered, and still that was not enough for the United States which wants ever more with a hunger that can never be sated; they did the ideological thing and got a bunch of rich folk to dominate their society, but they're not OUR rich folk.

Francis Fukuyama's idea that the collapse of the Soviet Union meant "the end of history" is all the more laughable in the context of continued and escalating predatory behavior by the imperial core. We've got post-historical genocides going on.
You do know its Russia who kept interfering in Ukraine's politics right? Up to downright poisoning their presidents. Lets also not act like Yanukovych was some unsung hero wanting to protect the Ukranian public. He'd not be defined by corruption if that was the case. Speaking of not having majority support? Joining Putin's creepy ''Eurasian union''. Not even in the east was this supported.

You and other tankies keep talking about provocations towards Russia but the only thing that ever comes up is NATO being a barrier to Russia's ambitions to butcher and subjugate their neighbors. And even this proved really negotionable. Rather than being ''provoked'' Russia was instead constantly given the chance to terrorize their neighbors as a courtesy to their ''imperial status'', a status that by itself was already a courtesy to Russia given its decline. As you've known they've ocupied Transnistria and parts of Georgia for decades and the world considered it mostly fine. Because Russia has an alleged ''imperial'' status.

We're constantly fed the narrative that some Cartheginian peace was imposed on Russia that downright forced them to turn insane but that's nonsense. They were granted an artificial imperial status, their misdeeds were condoned, they were allowed to get filthy rich from the gass trade and could structure their horror regime as they pleased. The only real limitation imposed on them was not butchering and subjugating their neighbors, which again proved really fucking negotionable.

Though I do agree the US has some blame in the sense that they misdiagnosed(or ignored) where Russia's barbarity came from. After the cold war there was a focus on ''de-commufie'' Russia through the foolish shock therapy, but Communism wasn't where their barbarity came from. Its their imperial pride and bloodthirst that's the problem. They needed to be ''denazified'' similar to Germany but that never happened, so now Russia is as barbaric as usual again and we've got a new war in Europe because of it.
 

Agema

Overhead a rainbow appears... in black and white
Legacy
Mar 3, 2009
10,984
7,945
118
but it was, for most of its existence, a much more humane society than Tsarist Russia or what Russia has turned to now after Yeltsin and Putin, which is in man ways a restoration of Tsarist Russia.
Was it though? Although many of the USSR's ideals were admirable, more so than it's predecessor and Russian successor, I'm not sure how well it actually lived up some to them (true also of our societies, mind).

For instance, it's clear that it was a society with very heavy security apparatus that heavily constrained and repressed its people, who could be subjected to heavy punishment, and whose people were often fearful of the state. It was a state that made decisions for the "greater good" at the cost of its people: for instance life expectancy declined from the 1960s in large part due to poor working conditions and pollution - deemed acceptable to combat capitalism.
 

Hades

Elite Member
Mar 8, 2013
3,255
2,494
118
Country
The Netherlands
Was it though? Although many of the USSR's ideals were admirable, more so than it's predecessor and Russian successor, I'm not sure how well it actually lived up some to them (true also of our societies, mind).

For instance, it's clear that it was a society with very heavy security apparatus that heavily constrained and repressed its people, who could be subjected to heavy punishment, and whose people were often fearful of the state. It was a state that made decisions for the "greater good" at the cost of its people: for instance life expectancy declined from the 1960s in large part due to poor working conditions and pollution - deemed acceptable to combat capitalism.
What strikes me is the difference in how they dealt with dissidents. I'm sure the Tsars were not all puppies and rainbows(Lenin's brother was executed for instance) but exile to Siberia seems to have been a common punishment. Not fun at all, but remarkably lenient compared to the Soviets torturing people to death in Gulags, or whatever Beria was up to.