US 2024 Presidential Election

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Satinavian

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He is "calling for it". No law, no executive order, no incentive.

Others are supposed to do the work/take the hit and if it works, he will claim credit and if it doesn't it is their fault.

The banks already said "no".
 

Silvanus

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Seriously, try harder. You are trying to win an argument I'm not longer having with you. Seriously think for yourself, and consider what others might think and feel.
I continue to imagine myself in the officer's position: at the corner of a vehicle moving a couple of miles per hour.

Hm, that's odd, my mental image still just takes a step to the right, or else may get a small bruise.

So when you put yourself in that officer's shoes, you find yourself immediately shooting them, and then continue shooting twice more once you're well out of the way?

On a side-note, remember when you argued that the preservation of human life was always the moral approach? That turned out to be a complete crock, eh?
 

tstorm823

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I continue to imagine myself in the officer's position: at the corner of a vehicle moving a couple of miles per hour.

Hm, that's odd, my mental image still just takes a step to the right, or else may get a small bruise.

So when you put yourself in that officer's shoes, you find yourself immediately shooting them, and then continue shooting twice more once you're well out of the way?

On a side-note, remember when you argued that the preservation of human life was always the moral approach? That turned out to be a complete crock, eh?
I'm not asking you to call the shooting moral, I'm asking you to try to understand another human being. You are instead searching for avenues to assert your superiority. I don't suspect you would shoot in that situation, nor would I, but empathy involves understanding decisions you don't agree with. You have yet to consider his thoughts or feelings.
 

Hades

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I'm not asking you to call the shooting moral, I'm asking you to try to understand another human being. You are instead searching for avenues to assert your superiority. I don't suspect you would shoot in that situation, nor would I, but empathy involves understanding decisions you don't agree with. You have yet to consider his thoughts or feelings.
His thoughts and feelings are easy to consider “I’m a big shot action hero who beats the shit out of brown people first and asks questions later!” sums it’s up pretty well. And as it turns out this mindset is not suited for interacting with the public

Appearances are certainly against him. The public profile and even their own propaganda just isn’t that of an ICE where honorable public servants quietly do their work. The violence and action hero larping are key to their public image. Even among their fans.

It’s hard to call for ambiguity in situations there is none and not even the guilty party really stresses there is.


If it really was some confusing situation brought about by the hyper polarization they introduced they’d stress the need to reevaluate their conduct to repair trust between the public and ICE. But they maliciously do not take this path. They just call the murder victim a terrorist.
 

meiam

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Its just this weird moment where the GOP is realigning in a way that is far more communism align than anything the democrat did in that last couple of decades, despite using communism as the bogeyman. And the GOP doesn't to be noticing (I know they're stupid and uneducated, I just figured at some point they have to give example of what they're talking about).
 
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Dirty Hipsters

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I'm not asking you to call the shooting moral, I'm asking you to try to understand another human being. You are instead searching for avenues to assert your superiority. I don't suspect you would shoot in that situation, nor would I, but empathy involves understanding decisions you don't agree with. You have yet to consider his thoughts or feelings.
A lot of officer involved shootings are understandable even if some of them are ultimately in the wrong. This one is completely unjustifiable.
 

tstorm823

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If it really was some confusing situation brought about by the hyper polarization they introduced they’d stress the need to reevaluate their conduct to repair trust between the public and ICE.
ICE detains and deports literally hundreds of thousands of people each year, the overwhelming majority without violent altercation, and an incident like this is vanishingly rare. If someone takes that job under the delusion that they'll have ample opportunity to maim and kill people, that is not based in reality, that is fantasy land. In specific, it is your fantasy land, since yours are the people spreading the idea that ICE exists to maim and kill people.
 

Hades

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ICE detains and deports literally hundreds of thousands of people each year, the overwhelming majority without violent altercation, and an incident like this is vanishingly rare. If someone takes that job under the delusion that they'll have ample opportunity to maim and kill people, that is not based in reality, that is fantasy land. In specific, it is your fantasy land, since yours are the people spreading the idea that ICE exists to maim and kill people.
Like that time they violently dragged out and handcuffed the wrong family? If the public profile ICE itself promotes has a certain image, and if they keep pardoning violent offenders then how ''vanishingly rare'' will these incidents be?''

Those footage of Ice members threatening the public. Are those officers instantly fired? Or does ICE condone it? What happened with that goon squad that assaulted the wrong family? And what will happen to this brown shirt murderer? All things that needs to be sorted out if ICE wants to avoid these situations. That they refuse to do this speaks volumes.
 
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Agema

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I'm not asking you to call the shooting moral, I'm asking you to try to understand another human being.
Yeah, sure.

We can get the potential fear in a guy who had a car move at him suddenly.

But if you ask us to understand him, we need to consider he is a man who approached a car with his gun out and ready despite little to no obvious threat in the first place. My understanding of what people are like tells me that such behaviour potentially comes from a thuggish bully, or just some steely-eyed guy who means business for which you'd better get the fuck out of his way, and his gun is going to make you get out of his way.

My understanding of this man is influenced to some degree by words uttered after the shooting - admittedly a different ICE agent I think - of "fucking *****". It doesn't sound to me like a tone of shock, sadness or despair, that they have regretfully ended up killing a woman. It sounds like they genuinely think she was a fucking *****, and that tells me something about their empathy. And if I'm going to be honest, this fits with all the times when ICE agents have been repeatedly caught assaulting journalists or anyone else they fancy. This kind of behaviour reflects badly on the organisation, and all within it: If that's how others act, what are the chances for this guy?

I wonder what sort of person signs up for that job in the first place. I'm sure lots of police have grand ideas about justice and defending the public and faithfully making the USA a better place. ICE agents... erm... that doesn't feel like it's probably so virtuous. I think about the rhetoric of the US government, and the culture of zeal, machismo and malice they seem to impart, and the sense of impunity they seem to want to ICE to have: it makes me think about what potentially toxic institutional attitudes officers like this exist in. I note after ICE was originally founded, it had very high rates of misconduct. I can't help but feel a crash campaign to shove thousands of recruits in ASAP recently isn't good for effective background screening, a high standard of training, experience and general quality control. And I can sympathise to some degree that some ICE agents are therefore let down by their organisation: people who live in toxic cultures will be affected by that. Unfortunately, by them becoming toxic themselves, and at the end of the day, all the empathy in the world for how their circumstances made them doesn't change the fact that they're bad people.

This is the problem, you see. You ask us to understand this man, but actually, trying to understand and empathise with the man he may be can still come to the conclusion that there's a good chance he's a malignant, violent piece of shit.
 
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tippy2k2

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Also about the man...like...these cunts are supposed to be trained. This isn't some random dude on the street, this is supposedly a trained officer of the law.

If having a car mildly accelerating at you activates your "pull your gun out and let it fly" instinct, you should not be an authority figure (I guess maybe a mall cop who doesn't get a gun is fine).
 
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crimson5pheonix

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Also about the man...like...these cunts are supposed to be trained. This isn't some random dude on the street, this is supposedly a trained officer of the law.

If having a car mildly accelerating at you activates your "pull your gun out and let it fly" instinct, you should not be an authority figure (I guess maybe a mall cop who doesn't get a gun is fine).
I wonder what part of the training is "walk in front of a suspects car when they're at the wheel". I also want to know if their training manual tells them to jump in front of a car if it starts moving.

Of course, it definitely now is unofficial policy because if you stand in the way of a moving car, you will get backed up by the administration to open fire.
 

tstorm823

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My understanding of this man is influenced to some degree by words uttered after the shooting - admittedly a different ICE agent I think - of "fucking *****". It doesn't sound to me like a tone of shock, sadness or despair, that they have regretfully ended up killing a woman. It sounds like they genuinely think she was a fucking *****...
I'm not suggesting the stages of grief are a fixed law in human nature, people react to things in different ways, but there's good reason they put denial and anger before sadness or despair in the list. Sadness follows contemplation, anger is a normal response in the moment.

Here's a video worth watching:

Reddit considers that "kicking in doors", but I doubt you'll see it that way.
 

Silvanus

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I'm not asking you to call the shooting moral, I'm asking you to try to understand another human being. You are instead searching for avenues to assert your superiority. I don't suspect you would shoot in that situation, nor would I, but empathy involves understanding decisions you don't agree with. You have yet to consider his thoughts or feelings.
We can only infer his thoughts and feelings from the situation we see him in, and his actions in response to it. The situation presents no clear danger to him. His response to it is immediately lethal.

So we can infer a few possibilities as to his thoughts. Maybe he misunderstood the situation and panicked. That would indicate zero training or discipline (feasible with ICE), but doesn't fit with the fact he kept firing even when well to the left of the car. Or, he feels a casual disregard for the lives of those he sees as challenging his authority-- a power trip.

You never give a shit about the thoughts and feelings of those on the receiving end of state violence, i notice. The refugees sent off to a foreign prison notorious for torture, you'll just give a cursory look and declare them probably criminals or gangsters, and justify whatever brutality happened to them. Thoughts and feelings be damned, we can assume the worst on the flimsiest grounds.
 
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Which is punishable by summary execution?
It was a judgment call, sure. But, let’s flip it and say it was a civilian in front of the car instead of ICE. Ironically if there wasn’t ice on the road when she initially accelerated, her wheel was turned towards the person and could have caused more bodily harm under normal traction. The officer reacted how he was trained. Had he not reacted and a civilian was seriously injured or killed, guaranteed he’d be held accountable for not reacting.

Under the US constitution, law enforcement "can only use deadly force if the person poses a serious danger to them or other people, or the person has committed a violent crime", said Chris Slobogin, director of the criminal justice programme at Vanderbilt University Law School.
But the US Supreme Court has historically granted broad leniency to officers making in-the-moment decisions without the benefit of hindsight.
A DHS policy memo from 2023 states that federal officers "may use deadly force only when necessary" when they have "a reasonable belief that the subject of such force poses an imminent threat of death or serious bodily injury" to themself or another person.

She also wasn’t just dropping her kid off, if anyone still believes that.

 

tstorm823

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You never give a shit about the thoughts and feelings of those on the receiving end of state violence, i notice. The refugees sent off to a foreign prison notorious for torture, you'll just give a cursory look and declare them probably criminals or gangsters, and justify whatever brutality happened to them. Thoughts and feelings be damned, we can assume the worst on the flimsiest grounds.
Empathy is not declaring the innocence of the people you want to be innocent, it's understanding them even when they are guilty.

Let's take the guy you found as an example, the one who I agree was deported without due process. We don't know too much about him, but we can build an idea of him off of what we do. We know that he came to the US after his parents were already settled here, we know he didn't submit all the immigration forms, we know that in the US he still gravitated to people from Venezuela. The image in your mind of someone coming to the US seems to be starving people with dirt on their face desperate for help, but in this instance, the facts paint a picture of someone who didn't actually care to be here in the first place. And that's fine, that's not a judgment, it's not his fault the government of Venezuela sucks, it's not his fault his dad picked fights with the government, none of it is his fault, so why is it all his problem? That is a totally relatable thought process: "it's not my fault, why is it my problem?" Everyone has thought that, usually when true, but it's easy enough to fall into that trap even when you are at fault. I didn't fill out that form cause they told me I didn't have to, I didn't go with those guys they kidnapped me, I only plead guilty cause they told me to... none of it is my fault, so why do I have to deal with all this? I think anyone can empathize with that thought process while also knowing it's wrong.

Let's look back at this shooting and try to understand the people, starting with the woman. She thinks ICE is effectively Nazis doing the equivalent of rounding up the Jews. She thinks that getting in their way is saving people's lives. And then those same people pull guns on her. The expectation when you point a gun at someone is that they will do what you tell them to, that's how robbing at gunpoint works, but it only works on the principle that the person with the gun wants the other outcome: the robber wants your money, not to shoot you, and the police want you to get out of the car, not to shoot you. That doesn't work if you think the people with the gun want to kill you. I suspect in her mind, she saw ICE the way all of you do, as thugs on a power trip who joined ICE to hurt and kill people, but she figured they can only get away with it against non-white people, so she was going to take advantage of her privilege as a white citizen to get in their way, cause they can't touch her. When they pulled guns, she didn't react like the police were arresting her, she reacted like murderers were surrounding her and she tried to run as fast as she could. There are right-wing opinion pieces about how she put her life and the lives of others at risk just to avoid arrest and defend criminals, and I think those are all full of crap cause they aren't trying to understand her. Of course her actions don't make sense if you project the thoughts of a Republican onto her, but that's not what she was thinking.

Now for the shooter, who was filming her in the moment, I can guarantee you exactly what he was thinking (minus some expletives, of course): "holy crap, look at these psychos". In his mind, he is the lawful authority (cause he was), and you can make of that what you will, but his expectation is that he is supposed to be telling people what to do when they are disorderly. Now there are people actively following ICE around, blocking roads, blaring whistles, setting off car alarms everywhere they go. ICE approaches these women who have blocked the road in front of them deliberately, who are spewing profanities at them. In his mind, he is part of the cops doing their jobs, and people reacting this way have completely lost it. This woman doesn't look to him like a peaceful protester displaying civil disobedience against a fascist authority, she looks like she's having a full-on psychotic breakdown. Just like the woman, his actions don't make sense if you see this as "cops try to arrest normal person". Step aside, let her go, arrest her later is an easy solution when you casually process the scenario as a law enforcement interaction where the suspect flees. But that's not what the moment was, from his perspective, complete psychos were following and harassing them, and then one of them saw him in front of her car, put it in drive, and hit the gas hard enough to spin out.

Her response was flight, his was fight, both were reacting to the blind instinct of fear for ones life in the face of someone who seemed willing to kill them with the means to do so. That doesn't make it a justified shooting, at minimum he should be out of that job, at maximum I could call this something like voluntary manslaughter, there's a strong possibility he gets off on justified self-defense, but given the information we have, I would not advocate for that. But the suggestion that this is what he wanted, that he joined ICE with the desire to shoot people, is ultimately contributing to the problem. Propagating this idea actively makes the world worse, and you all should knock it off.
 

Satinavian

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So Trump has now ordered the military to draft Greenland invasion plans.


Unfortunately it was first reportet by the Daily Mail, so not the most credible thing ever.
 
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Agema

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It was a judgment call, sure. But, let’s flip it and say it was a civilian in front of the car instead of ICE. Ironically if there wasn’t ice on the road when she initially accelerated, her wheel was turned towards the person and could have caused more bodily harm under normal traction. The officer reacted how he was trained. Had he not reacted and a civilian was seriously injured or killed, guaranteed he’d be held accountable for not reacting.
Yeah, yeah, we get it. You're glad the b**** got what she deserved.
 
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Hades

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So Trump has now ordered the military to draft Greenland invasion plans.


Unfortunately it was first reportet by the Daily Mail, so not the most credible thing ever.
Maybe it’s time for that much hyped deep state to remove Trump before he goes through with this
 
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