US 2024 Presidential Election

Recommended Videos

tstorm823

Elite Member
Legacy
Aug 4, 2011
8,536
1,009
118
Country
USA
or were awaiting processing at immigration centres they had arrived at legally.
That's a little beside the point, but also a questionable claim on its own. The people sent to El Salvador were either from El Salvador or Venezuela (cause Venezuela was not accepting deportees). There are several international borders between those nations, are you presuming they followed all the immigration rules along the way?

More relevant than that conjecture though, what percentage of people arriving at the US border that way do you think are rejected? Even under Biden (the most permissive administration at the border at least in this century), it was around half, genuinely hundreds of thousands of people turned away and repatriated. Did their "legal status change without notice" as well? No, you silly goose. People who show up at the border don't have a legal status in the US. You are picking that term from the situation of temporary protected status, under which people in the US have their deportation orders temporarily deferred to nations deemed unsafe, but TPS does not apply to people arriving at the border, it is explicitly for people who were living in the US prior to TPS being declared for that nation. There's no 90-day notice of change of legal status for new arrivals, they don't get TPS to begin with, otherwise a TPS declaration would be a blanket approval of refugee status for an entire nation of people.
 

Silvanus

Elite Member
Legacy
Jan 15, 2013
13,987
7,244
118
Country
United Kingdom
That's a little beside the point, but also a questionable claim on its own. The people sent to El Salvador were either from El Salvador or Venezuela (cause Venezuela was not accepting deportees). There are several international borders between those nations, are you presuming they followed all the immigration rules along the way?
My speculation about the route doesn't matter, and neither does yours. This is just you wanting to assume guilt again, and use that to justify punishment.

More relevant than that conjecture though, what percentage of people arriving at the US border that way do you think are rejected?
So much waffling deflection. Whatever my (or anyone else's) answer to this, it wouldn't justify relegating people who haven't been found guilty of a damn thing to indefinite imprisonment and torture on your government's dime.
 

tstorm823

Elite Member
Legacy
Aug 4, 2011
8,536
1,009
118
Country
USA
Whatever my (or anyone else's) answer to this, it wouldn't justify...
I am aware of your stance her. Literally nothing anyone could say would ever possibly change your mind. The people are all back entirely in the custody of their home countries, one of which had the dictator removed by the US since then, and you're talking about indefinite torture.
 

Asita

Answer Hazy, Ask Again Later
Legacy
Jun 15, 2011
3,331
1,228
118
Country
USA
Gender
Male
I'm saying that if Biden didn't open the borders like he did, you wouldn't have ICE raids during Trump v2.
He didn't, at least not in the "ICE's current actions are an equal and opposite response" manner you are implying. Point of fact, immigration had already been surging for reasons unrelated to policy, and indeed had already hit a 21 year high during Trump's term of office.

The issue you're complaining about was already there before Biden was even sworn in, and the data shows that the surge in immigration was not because of 'weak border policy' but because of extant circumstances, such as the massive spike in labor demand between 2020 and 2022, to name just one of the many factors. For that matter, we see that the surge started before Biden was even elected and it ended before he left office. Moreover, a deeper dive into the data shows that it was broadly driven by a perfect storm of regional instability, post-COVID movement, and economic shock, not the immigration policy of either administration.

In fact, while Trump et al have liked to paint the Biden administration as having an "open border" policy and being weak on enforcement, and like to point to the raw border crossing numbers in that period as proof...that's cherry picking the data by ignoring the enforcement statistics. In actuality, during the same period the Biden administration tripled interior detention over what Trump had done in his first term, increased Border Patrol detention by 12-fold from January to July 2021, and increased US removal flights by 55 percent during his term. (For context, in 2020 there were 1,009 flights. In 2021 there were 1,049, in 2022, that was up to 1,416, then 1,482 in 2023, and 1,565 in 2024). He extended unprecedented contracts with airplane charter companies when the prior contract lapsed, negotiated broader expulsion deals with other countries, and removed or expelled three times as many border crossers as the Trump administration.

Yes, numbers were high, but to infer that meant the lack of enforcement argued by Trump et al's "open borders" claims is pure "heads I win, tails you lose logic" determined to force the data to fit their predetermined rhetoric. Deportation numbers are down? "Oh, clearly that shows that enforcement is lax and undocumented immigrants are just getting away with it! It's all Biden's fault!" Deportation numbers are up? "Oh, clearly that also shows that enforcement is lax and it's all Biden's fault!" It's an argument rooted in spin, not fact, demanding that we treat any permutation of the numbers (increase, decrease, or lack of change) as damning to the Biden administration's policy without actual examination of the numbers, their causative factors, or significance: Just invoking them in abstract as a prop.

Hell, for that matter, one of those causative factors of the increase in illegal immigration was the Trump Administration's implementation of Title 42 expulsions - starting in March 2020, and which Biden did not lift until May 2023 - which both incentivized border patrol evasions by removing legitimate avenues of immigration (such as asylum) and ended up incentivizing repeat crossings due to the specifics of implementation, which actually made it easier to make repeat attempts in a short period of time, inflating the border crossing figures substantially.

But because Donald Trump wanted to campaign on immigration, he and allied outlets characterized the matter as the Biden administration having "opened the borders" with "weak immigration policy". And that's a framing that isn’t supported by the broader enforcement data. While encounter numbers were high, enforcement actions like removals, detention capacity, and processing operations continued at substantial scale - and in many respects increased in response to rising migration volumes - undermining the premise that the system became a permissive vacuum requiring drastic correction.

Hell, want to look at the actual track record of the administration? Because that track record is very different from what you imply. In fact, it includes things like negotiating stricter enforcement in other countries (including Mexico, Belize and Costa Rica) to make it harder for undocumented migrants to reach the US border in the first place, reopening detention facilities and opening new ones, launching anti-migration messaging in foreign countries to disincentivize migrants from approaching the border, reinstating expedited removal, initiating expulsion flights, hiring a record number of deportation judges, surging the border with National Guard troops, increasing migration criminal enforcement by 33%, opening up new detention facilities, and even initially supporting - and even extending - the aforementioned Title 42 expulsion policy to name but a few examples

Contrary to the claims of Trump and his supporters, enforcement structure under Biden remained quite active - and indeed removal and flights increased substantively and deportation and processing capacity expanded in a variety of ways

So no, Trump's usage of ICE has nothing to do with Biden's border policy and you can't just say "Trump's decisions are Biden's responsibility". Migration was largely driven by external forces, and enforcement under Biden contradicts the idea that he created a permissive vacuum requiring correction.

By no stretch of the imagination is ICE's current behavior the "equal and opposite reaction" to Biden's policy that you claim it is. Because that would first require the system to have moved to such a lax enforcement state under Biden as to require immediate desperate measures, which the data simply does not show.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Agema and bluegate

Silvanus

Elite Member
Legacy
Jan 15, 2013
13,987
7,244
118
Country
United Kingdom
I am aware of your stance her. Literally nothing anyone could say would ever possibly change your mind.
Nothing can justify torture for me, no. Apparently it can for you.

On the other facts of the case, my mind could be changed if you introduced anything to substantially dispute what's been provided. But you haven't.

The people are all back entirely in the custody of their home countries, one of which had the dictator removed by the US since then, and you're talking about indefinite torture.
Yes, after much well documented torture, abysmal conditions, and other cruel and unusual treatment, they are back in their home country-- after the US negotiated a prisoner swap. At the time, both American and El Salvadoran authorities gloated about their imprisonment, and an El Salvadoran minister stated that they would never return to their communities. When incarcerated, it was very much indefinite; there was no end date, no charge, no sentence, just open-ended incarceration.
 

tstorm823

Elite Member
Legacy
Aug 4, 2011
8,536
1,009
118
Country
USA
and an El Salvadoran minister stated that they would never return to their communities
That comment was about Salvadoran gang members. Not content with mixing together the various people who were deported into one mega-identity that is simultaneously arriving at the US and living in the US for years and totally innocent of any crime but also not getting due process and being imprisoned indefinitely but also being deported.... now you've managed to rope in people that have actual nothing to do with the United States. Comments made in El Salvador about Salvadorans in their own country are a basis to judge US immigration policies to you.
 

Trunkage

Nascent Orca
Legacy
Jun 21, 2012
9,622
3,256
118
Brisbane
Gender
Cyborg
I literally posted a New York Times article (who lean left btw) with government data showing the immigration surge was the highest in US history during Biden and that's based on percentages, not sheer numbers (so it's not because there's just more people now than 100+ years ago).
Just to be clear, you are talking about a phenomenon that happened in every country around the world... because all countries stopped immigration for 2 years. There was a backlog of applications etc.

It does not matter if it was a left-wing or right-wing country. It would not have mattered if Biden, Harris or Trump were in charge. It's what happens when there is a pandemic. Once people started leaving their houses crime went up, car accidents went up, deaths to flu went up and animal deaths due to hunting went up. Because they were all down for a year or two

Now, the other problem is that Trump made up numbers as well, who exaggerates everything

ICE is not doing a fucking genocide. That is not comparable at all.
Are you trying to be a moron or just not understand what I said?
 

Trunkage

Nascent Orca
Legacy
Jun 21, 2012
9,622
3,256
118
Brisbane
Gender
Cyborg
Recently at the committee hearings, RFK Jr made a comment that it was 'not compassionate' to give Vitamin A as a treatment for measles. This implies that vaccines aren't compassionate, which gets a big fuck you from me.... but I digress

RFK stated that other countries use it as a treatment. The WHO does recommend giving Vitamin A to measles patients in certain countries and not others. This seems bad and unfair... as long as you dont actually do any reading.... because some countries' average citizens lack vitamin A. The recommendation is to make the patient healthier in general to fight measles. It's not to treat measles. The US citizens do not lack vitamin A

A bunch of West Texas parents gave their kids vitamin A due to RFK's advice. They gave people who already have enough vitamin A an overdose on vitamin A. It gave them liver damage, and they had to be hospitalized. So, not only did they not do anything to treat measles, but they actively damaged kids. Unless there is proof that someone is vitamin A deficient, don't give them random supplements

Stop lining your own pockets RFK. Stop shilling for Big Pharma. Stop trying to kill kids. And another fuck you from me
 
  • Like
Reactions: bluegate

XsjadoBlayde

~ just another dread messenger & artisanal kunt ~
Apr 29, 2020
3,892
3,988
118
Apparentl shooting at press dinner speech. Is hard to figure what exactly happened but there is audio of bangs but noone catching on at first, seemingly no casualties, apart from id imagine the shooter whoever that is or was







Of course this being the press dinner means we will never hear the end of this one
 

thebobmaster

Elite Member
Legacy
Apr 5, 2020
4,316
4,149
118
Country
United States
And we already have people saying it was staged. Because, you know, the Secret Service would totally be down for that.
 

XsjadoBlayde

~ just another dread messenger & artisanal kunt ~
Apr 29, 2020
3,892
3,988
118
That's been the new meta since at least the end of the first term. Is best to assume every major event (and any loud enough minor one) will instantly have multiple waves of opportunist conspiracy Infleuncer bullshit on top of the official white house bullshit. Is the free marketplace of realities after all. Was trying best to warn ppl when qanon started kicking off that it would be folded into mainstream right wing politics, but communication has been a lacking competency for me. Hoping to fix that.
 

thebobmaster

Elite Member
Legacy
Apr 5, 2020
4,316
4,149
118
Country
United States
Not posting it here for what should be obvious reasons, but Trump's official Twitter has posted a picture of the apparent gunman down on the ground with several Secret Service men over him...and seemingly nude for some reason.
 

Johnny Novgorod

Bebop Man
Legacy
Feb 9, 2012
20,044
4,752
118
Not posting it here for what should be obvious reasons, but Trump's official Twitter has posted a picture of the apparent gunman down on the ground with several Secret Service men over him...and seemingly nude for some reason.
They probably stripped him down and frisked him for explosives.
 

thebobmaster

Elite Member
Legacy
Apr 5, 2020
4,316
4,149
118
Country
United States

Hades

Elite Member
Mar 8, 2013
3,241
2,487
118
Country
The Netherlands
And we already have people saying it was staged. Because, you know, the Secret Service would totally be down for that.
Whether the secret service would be down for it or not isn't relevant. The US now have a system where agencies serve purely at the president's pleasure. The DOJ and fBI probably aren't keen on scrubbing Trump's name from the Epstein files or starting illegitimate investigations in his personal enemies but they still do it

I don't particularly think it was staged but that's not because the secret service wouldn't have rolled over when asked.
 

bluegate

Elite Member
Legacy
Dec 28, 2010
2,731
1,322
118
I wouldn't put it past little sleepy Donny to stage something to boost his ratings or further crack down on something.

Fits right in with his right wing authoritarianism.
 
Last edited:

Thaluikhain

Elite Member
Legacy
Jan 16, 2010
20,124
4,503
118
Maybe it was staged, maybe it wasn't. People who lie all the time about everything don't get to be believed automatically.

It would take impressive incompetence for this to be allowed to happen, but, well...

(Also, Caligula might have been unfairly maligned by ancient sources)
 

Hades

Elite Member
Mar 8, 2013
3,241
2,487
118
Country
The Netherlands
(Also, Caligula might have been unfairly maligned by ancient sources)
Probably but not to the extend of Tiberius where most is complete fabrication. He at least wasn’t a good emperor and seems to have hemoraged his predecessors treasury
 
  • Like
Reactions: Satinavian