Oh, not saying he was a good Emperor, but some of the more excitingly lurid stories about him might have been exaggerated. But good for history students, easy to remember the weird bits.
US 2024 Presidential Election
- Thread starter gorfias
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It is less the bad stories and more the accompaning lack of good stories.
Many emperors were maligned and slandered but most others had some people contradicting that. Nero has more stories about how he was bad but he is still far more debated than Caligula about whom hardly anyone has to say anything good.
I suspect you're thinking about the comment Villatoro made in 2023 after >60,000 were arrested, most without charge. So let's first adjust that to, "vaguely suspected of gang membership", much like many of those taken by ICE.
Fact is that Villatoro and Bukele have made similar comments broadly about CECOT detainees in general.
Why are you so insistent to declare definite guilt for people who have not been found guilty? You did it for the American detainees, and you're doing it here for El Salvadorans too.
Desperate strawman.
It's not about declaring definite guilt. Sometimes, all the time, things are not perfect and painless for people. Even those who did nothing explicitly wrong, even for those who do everything they're supposed to. That is the state of the world. No policy is going to create absolute and benevolent justice, we do the best with the circumstances we are dealt. There are rational reasons for everything that was done, and you are desperate to construct a scenario where none of those reasons apply, because then you can say it's just evil. You cannot let any understandable reason remain, because otherwise your hatred is your own fault.
Nero certainly got a very noticeable period of popularity after he prevented a war with Phartia and while the fire in Rome was damaging for his reputation he did seem to have behaved dutifully and opened his palace for the displaced population.
stories you indeed do not really hear of caligula.
The shooting of Trump probably isn't staged but its noteworthy than so many people are so ready to believe it is. The inbred cult will likely call ''Trump derangement syndrome'' but the more likely reason is that Trump simply has no credibility. He lies so often and is such a moral vacuum that staging an assassination is completely in line with his usual behavior and disregard for any decorum or morality.
We can say its unlikely but we cannot say that Trump absolutely would never try to pull such a trick. Because its Trump
It reminds me of Orban who DID consider staging an assassination or false flag but couldn't do it because at that point he was so distrusted that no one would have believed he wasn't behind it.
We can say its unlikely but we cannot say that Trump absolutely would never try to pull such a trick. Because its Trump
It reminds me of Orban who DID consider staging an assassination or false flag but couldn't do it because at that point he was so distrusted that no one would have believed he wasn't behind it.
Yet you do it, repeatedly. Just as the government itself posts the most extreme descriptions of them as gruesome, violent criminals, despite the fact that most have not been charged with anything.
The reason for this is obvious. It's easier to tolerate cruelty towards someone you've mentally categorised as a bad person, than it is towards someone innocent. Hence presumed guilt.
More platitude.
The authorities did not do the "best with the circumstances they were dealt". They did not have to send people without charge to one of the world's worst penal institutions. They did not have to slander them online with unproven allegations. They chose to do it, and then gloated.
That line of thinking would work if it was a normal government forced through grinded teeth to push for harsh measures because there is no other way around it. We are not talking about such a government. We are talking about a gaggle of unhinged lunatics who often loudly shout for all to hear exactly how much they despise the people they are hurting and that they in fact do take glee in it.
Things like ICE are not the circumstances Trump was dealt but the circumstances he chose. Considering he forbade the Democrats for being tougher on migration even the idea that these are circumstances Trump is stuck with through no will of his own is questionable.
And in general far right politics are not the state of the world but a state the far right insists on imposing on the world if they have the chance. Its a choice
Case solved, everybody. We have proof now that it was staged so Trump could build his ball room. I mean, how can you argue with this logic?
Everyone is cooked. Chopped. Seasoned. Tendered. Baked. Sautéed. Freeze dried. Vacuum packed. Fed ex'ed. Reheated. Chomped. Damn I made myself hungry now. Resist those inner conspiracy pulls. Read up on real ones instead, observe differences, and don't listen to candace owens, tucker carlson or that other dude whatever his name was. Tim Heidecker? Oh, alex jones, sorry, that's the one. joe rogan too if he still relevant and not astroturfing his numbers
- Feb 7, 2011
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I won't believe a single one of these "assassination attempts" is real until Trump actually gets killed in one. Until then these are all false flag operations by the Trump administration to try and save his dwindling popularity and give him an excuse for whatever policy he's trying to implement. In this case about 5 minutes later he was talking about how this is the reason he needs the new ballroom.Apparentl shooting at press dinner speech. Is hard to figure what exactly happened but there is audio of bangs but noone catching on at first, seemingly no casualties, apart from id imagine the shooter whoever that is or was
Trump evacuated after security incident at White House correspondents dinner; no sign of injuries
President Donald Trump and other top leaders of the United States were evacuated from an annual dinner of White House correspondents on Saturday night after an unspecified threat. There did not immediately appear to be any injuries.www.pbs.org
Trump evacuated after ‘gunshots’ fired at White House Correspondents Dinner
Attendees are hiding under tables and the ballroom’s doors were closedwww.independent.co.uk
Live updates: Trump uninjured after security incident at White House correspondents dinner; no injuries reported
President Donald Trump and other top leaders of the United States were evacuated from the White House correspondents dinner. One law enforcement official said a shooter opened fire.apnews.com
Of course this being the press dinner means we will never hear the end of this one
You're welcome to look around the site yourself, although I appreciate government data does not always come in the most user-friendly forms. You can also look up:
https://www.cbp.gov/document/stats/southwest-land-border-encounters . And again, the data findable here clearly demonstrates a marked increase in attempts to enter the USA from April 2020 onwards.
Almost certainly criticisms were heavily exaggerated.
However, I'd suggest that any monarch who took over a stable state by normal, lawful succession and made themselves so unpopular that they were murdered within a few years and posthumously vilified had some severe shortcomings as a ruler.
It would just save a lot of time were you to just come out and say "I hate immigrants, and it doesn't matter what suffering may be imposed on them just so long as they are thrown out of the country."
Well you see, there was (is) a refugee crisis from Venezuela outwards, during which the good will of other nations accepting refugees was exploited to spread Tren de Aragua across the hemisphere, developing a presence in the US, as well as performing political assassinations in other nations allegedly on behalf of the Maduro regime that was rejecting deportees at specifically the time that these Venezuelans were sent to CECOT, which is why they weren't just repatriated. Yes, they did not have to, but rather chose to reject refugee claims based on very broad standards that one would accurately describe as an overabundance of caution in the face of a real international threat.
There's supposed to be logic there?
At that site, I click the link for data from 2019-2022, download the spreadsheet, sum up the numbers, and get the following:
2019: 977,509
2020: 458,088
2021: 1,734,686
2022: 2,378,944
If I follow links around to older data, I see years before 2019 hovering around that 400k-500k range. 2019 was, to that point, anomalously high, and 2020 went back down, and then 2021 really spiked upwards.
Breaking down 2020 by month:
January: 36,585
February: 36,687
March: 34,460
April: 17,106
May: 23,237
June: 33,049
July: 40,929
August: 50,014
September: 57,674
October: 45,139
November: 42,643
December: 40,565
January ('21): 78,414
February ('21): 101,099
Looking at that, there is a certain truth to the claim that there was an increase starting in April, but not because it was trending higher than previous years, but because March into April of 2020 was the primary Covid-19 lockdown period, and encounters were exceptionally low. There was an increase into the summer followed by an almost equal decrease approaching winter, presumedly a seasonal trend, but a consistent period over 3-4 months where the rate of encounters dropped each month. Then in January, the rate spiked dramatically.
This old chestnut again: one avenue of removal (repatriation) was temporarily unavailable, and so this leaves absolutely no alternative but maximum security prison in an institution internationally renowned for torture, does it? Get off it.
With regards to your appeal to the 'refugee crisis': you're attempting to use wider context to justify extreme measures taken against individuals. As if that wider context is so overriding that little things like court and actually finding someone guilty are a privilege we can discard. If you simply don't think it's important that someone's actually found guilty before getting thrown into maximum security, just say that.
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It's not punishment at all. This is not a circumstance of criminal justice in the first place.
- Feb 7, 2011
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- 3,715
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Not necessarily. A criminal in a cell and a psychiatric patient in a cell and an enemy soldier in a cell and a migrant in processing in a cell are all different circumstances.
- Feb 7, 2011
- 9,035
- 3,715
- 118
- Country
- 'Merica
- Gender
- 3 children in a trench coat
Except that CECOT is specifically a maximum security prison, not a psychiatric center or migrant detention facility.