US 2024 Presidential Election

[Asita]

You're still not getting to the meat and potatoes, there was a massive immigration surge that the public didn't want that happened. That is THE RELEVANT FACT. If you want to argue that the way immigrants were getting in, they would've got in no matter the administration, that is something you can argue if you have anything to prove that. However, saying Biden kept all these other policies the same or increased enforcement doesn't matter if he was lax on the one policy that allowed the immigration surge. When you have the biggest immigration surge in US history and people do not want that, you will have an equal and opposite reaction.

No, what you're going out of your way to refuse to understand is that the immigration surge was unrelated to policy. Hell, I not only explained this to you but LED WITH THAT in my very first post on the subject! And I quote:

"The issue you're complaining about was already there before Biden was even sworn in, and the data shows that the surge in immigration was not because of 'weak border policy' but because of extant circumstances, such as the massive spike in labor demand between 2020 and 2022, to name just one of the many factors. For that matter, we see that the surge started before Biden was even elected and it ended before he left office. Moreover, a deeper dive into the data shows that it was broadly driven by a perfect storm of regional instability, post-COVID movement, and economic shock, not the immigration policy of either administration."

 

[Phoenixmgs]

No, what you're going out of your way to refuse to understand is that the immigration surge was unrelated to policy. Hell, I not only explained this to you but LED WITH THAT in my very first post on the subject! And I quote:

"The issue you're complaining about was already there before Biden was even sworn in, and the data shows that the surge in immigration was not because of 'weak border policy' but because of extant circumstances, such as the massive spike in labor demand between 2020 and 2022, to name just one of the many factors. For that matter, we see that the surge started before Biden was even elected and it ended before he left office. Moreover, a deeper dive into the data shows that it was broadly driven by a perfect storm of regional instability, post-COVID movement, and economic shock, not the immigration policy of either administration."

2 of the explanations in your link were a direct result of Biden.

 

[Hades]

OMG, you have such a slanted view on pretty much everything. If someone is fleeing war, they just don't get to decide what country to go to because if they did like every immigrant fleeing war would choose one of the say five best countries to go to. Those countries just can't take in every person fleeing war or a really bad country. And doesn't any country have the right to choose to take in people or not? I just can't choose to go to another country and live there, it's on them to accept me in. Should say Sweden be forced to take in American "refugees" that think they are living under fascism?

What I wrote was hardly a passionate appeal to take in asylum seekers. More the correct assessment that the far right switches between which group of migrants to hate depending on what is convenient and that mostly their core belief is that all migrants are bad. Because they are frauds who operate mostly out of hatred and lust for power.

Sure Europe cannot take in everyone fleeing from war. But fortunately no one is asking them to. The vast majority of war refugees are sheltered by the region rather than the west. I heard the phrase 90% at some points. Don't know if that is still accurate but its definitely closer to 90% then 50%.

Besides if war refugees should so obviously be refused then the far right would not spend so much time denying they actually are war refugees. The fact that they are so often slandered as fraudulent fortune seekers or people coming here just to rape does suggest the far right assumes there is discomfort in the electorate at the idea of just leaving all war refugees to their fate.

For the record I am not particularly keen on increased asylum seekers, but only because I do not think Europe can handle much more of it(Thanks to the hysteria induced by the far right). But that is a realistic assessment of what a country can handle and what it cannot handle, not a base belief that all migrants are scum that need to be kept out at all cost. If the far right did not want to be seen as racist they might try to make more arguments akin to the former rather than the later. Not my fault they are often literally foaming at the mouth on the subject.

 

[Asita]

2 of the explanations in your link were a direct result of Biden.

And there it is yet again: You once again show that you are not interested in understanding in the actual facts of the matter, but are instead just looking for a vague soundbite that will let you bullshit your value judgment without actually engaging with the information beyond the headers.

 

[Hades]

Have you considered that there is a second political party that has an obvious motive, not even an ulterior motive, a primary motive to get people to think more highly of them relative to their opposition?

If we presume politicians are willing to lie to succeed in politics to get ahead of their opponents, not singling any out in particular, then it is a safe assumption that whatever claims one politician or party makes about their competition will be worse than they are in reality. So if you believe everything a politician says about their opponents, you are all but guaranteed to believe lies. My question for you then, is there anything you've ever been told bad about Trump or those connected to them that you didn't believe?

Indeed. Sometimes politicians lie about their rivals. An example being lying about a president secretly being a foreign born Muslim. But a lot of things believed about Trump come from his own mouth and his own behavior. Trump obviously favoring Putin style barbarity over rule based democracy is not a lie by evil rivals of his but a constant trend across his entire political career. Likewise his extreme corruption is not slander but things he just does in the open.

There are cases where proof is insufficient enough that we can be charitable and say it is indeed a ''he said she said'' situation. But even then Trump makes it very unlikely that the logical outcome is favorable to his image. Take the ''loser and sucker'' comment. It was a leak from a closed door meeting with no proof so it may or it may not have happend. We do not know for certain.

But we do know Trump is a draft dodger who has always been uncomfortable with the post WW2 order and we know that his ability to empathize with others is limited at best. Given what we know about Trump him having called fallen soldiers losers and suckers is just the likelier scenario. And if that risk Trump getting mocked for things he might possibly not have said he only has himself to blame for that.

Same with Epstein. The smoking gun that Trump indeed raped children has been hidden...ahem I mean not yet found. But we know Trump is a felon who likes to grab them by the pussy, that he is the sort of openly corrupt businessman Epstein surrounded himself with and a self described friend of the man to boot. So it would be quite unreasonable for anyone to be offended about the idea or even the strong belief that Trump is a child rapist. Again his own fault and not the fault of anyone else.

Even if your enemies are willing to slander you to hell and back there must still be something to work with.

My question for you then, is there anything you've ever been told bad about Trump or those connected to them that you didn't believe?

Sure. I never really believed that Trump staged the murder attempts on him. Just that so many people being willing to believe it signals just how untrustworthy Trump is which again is his own doing. I also do not believe he had Musk hack him to victory in 2024. I just think the average American voter is too dumb to function.

 

[Trunkage]

Have you ever considered not doing that? You might stop falling for all the lies if you stop hating first.

Ah yes, defending someone I hate becuase you lied about him is a vice now

 

[tstorm823]

Ah yes, defending someone I hate becuase you lied about him is a vice now

Is there actually anything on this topic we disagreed on for you to accuse me of lying?

 

[Trunkage]

Yes, I did...

No you didnt. You werent even close

Here is the problem. You told a lie in 2020. You said we were like sheep and just followed Fauci. Everyone told you this was a lie back then and every year since

I told you back then that I was waiting for around 30 countries versions of the CDC to check all the vaccines. They are going to be mandated, so the vaccines needed to be safer than most other medicine. Even then, I told you I wanted to wait 6 mths into the rollout before personally taking it to see the results. Becuase, even after all that checking, I was not sure it was safe

So, the CDC saying it was fine is not enough. It never was enough. It needed to be double, triple and a million time checked.

This checking cost thousands of American lives per week. But its better than mandating a vaccining that killed thousands. This is the trade off you have to make if you fail to protect your citizens with normal disease prevention measures

Per the news story, it was closed because of immigrants and not because of the storm.
Students at James Madison High School in Brooklyn were informed Tuesday that classes would be conducted virtually on Wednesday because of the school's use as a “temporary overnight respite center."

“To ensure a smooth transition for families temporarily sheltering overnight in the building, our school building will be closed on Wednesday, January 10 and school will be in session remotely for all students,” Principal Jodie Cohen said in a statement to families.

The decision was decried by some parents who held a rally at the school Wednesday morning. One woman who said she is the mother of two students at the school called the situation “unacceptable.”

NYC decision to move migrants from tent shelter to a school amid storm draws fire

Nearly 2,000 asylum-seekers were bused to a Brooklyn high school to ride out the storm, drawing complaints from some parents, politicians and immigration advocates.

www.nbcnews.com

Yeah I read the article. It does not say what you think it says

 

[Trunkage]

Is there actually anything on this topic we disagreed on for you to accuse me of lying?

You did a lot of qualifiers, which makes you way better than the average GOP politican. Like significantly better, because all of what they said was a lie

So.... If Biden captures more people at the border, that shows that he was doing a good, strict job. Trump seems to be lax

 

[tstorm823]

So.... If Biden captures more people at the border, that shows that he was doing a good, strict job. Trump seems to be lax

Neither of those things are true either.

 

[Dirty Hipsters]

the main point is that basically 80% of the population either was fine with current immigration and wanted less

They were so fine with immigration that they wanted less of it? This is word salad.

 

[Trunkage]

Neither of those things are true either.

A lot of the people helping ICE raid communities are CBP. Taken from the border. Just like many of the are FBI. Taken from real cases.

Trump is not tough on crime. He's let thousand of people commit crimes because the FBI is wasting resources on the ICE raids. Trump is also wasting border patrol resources just too look tough on immigrants

A lot of the immigrants that Trump called illegal came in legally. He's wasting resources because he is cranky at Biden letting them in. There were never millions of illegal immigrants coming in under Biden. There were legal ones that Trump is pretending to retroactively make illegal becuase he had Biden Derangement Syndome

All that Trump has done is made illegal immigration more viable. Its like Prohibition or the War on Drugs. Making things illegal makes them more popular.

Also, remember in 2018, 5,500ish children were seperated from their parents. There is still almost 2,000 kids seperated 8 years later. So much money wasted and 2, 000 still not reunited. Did it stop asylum seekers? Absolutely not. They still came. Take it from a country who made the same stupid mistake. You pay billions of dollars to lock a few people up for decades. Its insane

You gotta understand. The GOP lied about illegal immigrants. They said they had good homes etc. No, they fled crime and political persecution. For the US to be not seen as a safe place for immigrants, it has to treat it populace like the immigrants homeland. Be like Iran or Venezulez and murder protestors. Be like Honduras and force people to work for their drug buddies. Be like Russia and send it people to die in a stupid war. Be like the Myannmar and have roaming gangs murder muslims. Be like Hamas and bomb neighbours. Be like Israel, steal your neighbours house and bomb them if they dont comply

Conversely, right now, there ARE people who are frightened of coming to America. It foreigners from safe countries. The level of authoritarianism is too much for them. He scared away all the immigrants he pretends to want. He made stupid moves like he did in Iran becuase he thinks he is smarter than everyone else. All he did was shit in his own bed

If Trump wants immigrants not to come, he needs to make the US not safe. He needs to murder more. He's already broken laws and gotten civilian killed. He may as well keep going

So, when I say lie. This is the sort of stuff I mean.

 

[Satinavian]

If Trump wants immigrants not to come, he needs to make the US not safe

He is quite successful with that. Additionally he is reducing the attraction for migrants by killing the economy.

 

[Silvanus]

They were hunted by the Taliban for helping the US. Now, Trump wants to send these families to the DRC

Thousands of Afghans who assisted US forces are stuck in limbo in Qatar. Instead of promised resettlement in America, they face an uncertain future in another war-torn country

www.theguardian.com

~1,100 Afghan people (those who assisted the US and their families) were evacuated to Qatar when the Taliban took over. They were promised resettlement to the US.

The US now plans to "resettle" them instead to war-torn DRC.

The US really treats those who help them like shit, doesn't it? Why should locals help the US when this is their reward?

 

[Phoenixmgs]

What I wrote was hardly a passionate appeal to take in asylum seekers. More the correct assessment that the far right switches between which group of migrants to hate depending on what is convenient and that mostly their core belief is that all migrants are bad. Because they are frauds who operate mostly out of hatred and lust for power.

Sure Europe cannot take in everyone fleeing from war. But fortunately no one is asking them to. The vast majority of war refugees are sheltered by the region rather than the west. I heard the phrase 90% at some points. Don't know if that is still accurate but its definitely closer to 90% then 50%.

Besides if war refugees should so obviously be refused then the far right would not spend so much time denying they actually are war refugees. The fact that they are so often slandered as fraudulent fortune seekers or people coming here just to rape does suggest the far right assumes there is discomfort in the electorate at the idea of just leaving all war refugees to their fate.

For the record I am not particularly keen on increased asylum seekers, but only because I do not think Europe can handle much more of it(Thanks to the hysteria induced by the far right). But that is a realistic assessment of what a country can handle and what it cannot handle, not a base belief that all migrants are scum that need to be kept out at all cost. If the far right did not want to be seen as racist they might try to make more arguments akin to the former rather than the later. Not my fault they are often literally foaming at the mouth on the subject.

You're not getting it. A country has no inherent obligation to take in anyone that it doesn't want to. And no asylum seeker or war refugee can pick and choose what country they want to go to. You make all these hyperbolic exaggerations like the far right believes all migrants are scum, that is not what anyone thinks...

And there it is yet again: You once again show that you are not interested in understanding in the actual facts of the matter, but are instead just looking for a vague soundbite that will let you bullshit your value judgment without actually engaging with the information beyond the headers.

And blue cities not working with ICE didn't cause any of this. And Biden expanding the CBP One app to be used just for commercial purposes to asylum seekers had nothing to do with the immigration surge either.

No you didnt. You werent even close

Here is the problem. You told a lie in 2020. You said we were like sheep and just followed Fauci. Everyone told you this was a lie back then and every year since

I told you back then that I was waiting for around 30 countries versions of the CDC to check all the vaccines. They are going to be mandated, so the vaccines needed to be safer than most other medicine. Even then, I told you I wanted to wait 6 mths into the rollout before personally taking it to see the results. Becuase, even after all that checking, I was not sure it was safe

So, the CDC saying it was fine is not enough. It never was enough. It needed to be double, triple and a million time checked.

This checking cost thousands of American lives per week. But its better than mandating a vaccining that killed thousands. This is the trade off you have to make if you fail to protect your citizens with normal disease prevention measures

Yeah I read the article. It does not say what you think it says

Tell me the actual scientific reason that moved the original end date of the vaccine trials. There is no reason to have mandated a vaccine that provides no community protection and it is also unconstitutional to mandate it as SCOTUS ruled that on Biden's overreach. It was the left saying the vaccine dangerous when it was being developed, not the right.

If the school was closed for the storm, why would the parents have been upset about that?

They were so fine with immigration that they wanted less of it? This is word salad.

You're critiquing my grammar because I used "and" instead of "or" by mistake? 80% of people don't want more immigration, democrats need to stop running on things that 80% of the population doesn't want.

 

[Silvanus]

You're not getting it. A country has no inherent obligation to take in anyone that it doesn't want to. And no asylum seeker or war refugee can pick and choose what country they want to go to.

This is a completely different argument again, unrelated to what Hades said, or even what you were saying earlier.

But let's look at it. Where do "obligations" come from? Are we talking moral or legal?

Legal obligations come from the Refugee Convention & the 1980 Refugee Act. There's no international legal obligation to grant asylum. But refugees cannot be turned away-- they must be processed-- and are protected from refoulement.

So, i assume you're talking about a moral obligation to grant asylum. You believe countries have no moral obligation, even when the asylum case is valid and the threat is real. Is that what you're arguing?

 

[Hades]

You make all these hyperbolic exaggerations like the far right believes all migrants are scum, that is not what anyone thinks...

To quote dear old Geert
''Do you want MORE or LESS Moroccans!''
''LESS! LESS! LESS!''
'Then we'll go arrange that''

Did you hear any distinction there between criminal Moroccans and normal ones? Those born here or migrated here? Those that came through legal or illegal channels. I did't.

Besides if migrants get jobs they stole it from a white Guy. If they do not have a job they are a leech. If they came here for work they are a fortune seeker, if they fled from war they are most likely also a fortune seeker and definitely a rapist. For a group that claims not to hate migrants in general they sure always seem to come up with a reason to be opposed to it, and in their speech they make their disdain plenty clear.

Why try to hide it?

 

[Satinavian]

The US really treats those who help them like shit, doesn't it? Why should locals help the US when this is their reward?

It is even worse. Part of the groups that were supposed to rise up for Trump in Iran were the Kurds. After he specifically betrayed his Kurdish allies in his last term.

 

[Thaluikhain]

IIRC, Australia also (rather controversially at the time), refused to take in as refugees the people (and their families) who had worked for/with the ADF at the time.

 

[BrawlMan]

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