TLOU2 Review Thread

[BrawlMan]

And the kind of third party games is not what Sony wanted, they wanted Metal Gear, Yakuza and AAA Third Party Games, not underage panty quests and shit that gets bad reviews and the press headaches having to review garbage games for chuds

Not every 3rd party game was like that on the Vita and you know it. Sony has no one to blame but themselves for fucking up that badly. Konami was constantly going down the shitter, so that would have not matter much.

I admit though, part of my hostility towards the haters for TLOU2 was from my previous years of animosity from their defense of the Vita games back in the day, especially when they had anime avatars

That's between you and the overly defensive fanboys/girls. It ain't the people's fault who made the games, anime or not. I've said this before, and I will say it again, you looking down on anime games, don't make you better or more enlignted. You have self-hatred, so you need to work that out. I told you before there are anime games I don't like nor care for, but I am not going to let it feed in to my insecurites or constantly get upset because others like something I don't. That is fucking life. Move on care about the things you enjoy and ignore the rest. You claim to be "over" anime games, but you have an obsession for hating on anyone that enjoys almost any type of anime game. Meaning you're not, and you might have some form of envy, along with the insecurity and self-hatred. Whatever time you felt you have wasted was no one else's fault, but your own. You made the choices. Not Sony. Not the 1st party or 3rd party developers. Not the niche Japanese publishers or developers. Once again, all you.

 

[Dirty Hipsters]

Yay, now that I finished Last of Us Part 2 I can finally contribute to this thread with my in-depth analysis.

Spoiler

It's alright.

That is the end of my analysis.

 

[BrawlMan]

Yay, now that I finished Last of Us Part 2 I can finally contribute to this thread with my in-depth analysis.

Spoiler

It's alright.

That is the end of my analysis.

 

[deleted20220709]

DELETED

 

[Casual Shinji]

I feel this game took a nasty stumble on its first step, that being the revenge theme, which just doesn't fit the character of Ellie. Certainly not by the means that the game is trying to. It feels like such a pointless theme to explore with these characters so incessantly when there was way more interesting things to delve into with them. Like Ellie and Joel's unhealthy relationship, Joel lying to her and gaslighting her, and her needing to cut herself off from a person she deeply cares for because he's just kinda poisonous for her. And not doing this by killing him off, since that just simplifies it way too much. The beauty of the ending of the first game was that both characters survived, so they had to live with the rift that had been created between them.

But the game loves Joel too much to get actually dark with the guy. As dark as the ending to the first game implies he's gotten (seeing Ellie as a replacement for Sarah and claiming her for his own by lying about something that is extremely important to her, and killing all who will stand in the way of that). Instead TLoU2 treats him with way too much reverence - seriously, look up any scene with Joel and he's just idealized papa bear to the nth - and gives him what is actually a clean death, where he's remembered fondly by everyone.

Jirard of The Complitionist also made a very good point in his video, how if the the game wanted the switch to Abby (the "antogonist") after Joel's death to be a rug pull, they never should've given the player control of her near the start. By doing this they already create a player connection to this character before the big, shocking reveal simply by controlling her and sharing her struggle through fighting zombies. They also make her seem like a pretty reasonable person in this section, taking even more of the sting out of our intended hatred for this character.

So yeah, 'Joel dies, and Ellie gets mad so she goes on kill spree' was a bad story set-up for the get-go, and the execution didn't help matters much.

 

[BrawlMan]

I feel this game took a nasty stumble on its first step, that being the revenge theme, which just doesn't fit the character of Ellie. Certainly not by the means that the game is trying to. It feels like such a pointless theme to explore with these characters so incessantly when there was way more interesting things to delve into with them.

That is why this game fails. Other games have already explored the cycle of vengeance/violence trope better than TLOU2. No More Heroes 1 & 2, Killer Is Dead, Killer 7, both Nier games, Metal Gear Solid, Undertale, and even Spec-Ops The Line. Even various GTA games get the job done better TLOU2 in this regard. Character shilling is the worst thing you can do; especially if the characters is heavily morally grey or just plain terrible. It's why I can't stand certain characters in many a shounen anime (MHA, Shaman King, & Naruto) that I usually drop it altogether. The same applies to video games, movies, or books too.

 

[stroopwafel]

Looking back I have to say this is one of the best games of the generation. I'm glad they took the direction they chose pushing these characters into unexpected territories. The first game never grabbed me that much. Enjoyed it but it felt tailor made to pull at the heart strings in ways that were kind of predictable an formulaic. Many movies have that as well where the choices are so deliberate the emotions they need to provoke are somewhat artificial. In the best stories you need to kind of let loose and not over control what the viewer/player should think or feel. TLoU2 had this absolute emotional intensity inside an ambiguous vacuum that became almost surreal in the later portion. I loved how the city bursted open from all the flooding with the shroom zombies as an extension of that nature. In the artbook there are also these wide shots that illustrate the total collapse. It was a perfect fit for the game's exploration of the dark passions in the heart of human kind since we are ofcourse also an extension of that same nature. The game showed so well the duality in emotion and intent and how a kind heart can corrupt through anger and grief. Given the circumstances Ellie and Abby were almost predestined to travel the path they were on. There is a futility to their (self)destructive quest that is really quite tragic. And then in the end when both Ellie and Abby realize, all that they've lost. I don't think I ever experienced a more profound ending in a game.

The game just sticks in my thoughts for whatever reason. It really resonated with me. Just an absolute masterpiece.

 

[Hades]

That is why this game fails. Other games have already explored the cycle of vengeance/violence trope better than TLOU2. No More Heroes 1 & 2, Killer Is Dead, Killer 7, both Nier games, Metal Gear Solid, Undertale, and even Spec-Ops The Line. Even various GTA games get the job done better TLOU2 in this regard

As far as its big theme goes I feel TLOU2 was released about a decade too late. ''Revenge m'kay'' has been a very common plot point so the game being so proud of its theme that ''revenge is bad m'kay'' seems a little big undeserved.

 

[hanselthecaretaker]

I feel this game took a nasty stumble on its first step, that being the revenge theme, which just doesn't fit the character of Ellie. Certainly not by the means that the game is trying to. It feels like such a pointless theme to explore with these characters so incessantly when there was way more interesting things to delve into with them. Like Ellie and Joel's unhealthy relationship, Joel lying to her and gaslighting her, and her needing to cut herself off from a person she deeply cares for because he's just kinda poisonous for her. And not doing this by killing him off, since that just simplifies it way too much. The beauty of the ending of the first game was that both characters survived, so they had to live with the rift that had been created between them.

But the game loves Joel too much to get actually dark with the guy. As dark as the ending to the first game implies he's gotten (seeing Ellie as a replacement for Sarah and claiming her for his own by lying about something that is extremely important to her, and killing all who will stand in the way of that). Instead TLoU2 treats him with way too much reverence - seriously, look up any scene with Joel and he's just idealized papa bear to the nth - and gives him what is actually a clean death, where he's remembered fondly by everyone.

Jirard of The Complitionist also made a very good point in his video, how if the the game wanted the switch to Abby (the "antogonist") after Joel's death to be a rug pull, they never should've given the player control of her near the start. By doing this they already create a player connection to this character before the big, shocking reveal simply by controlling her and sharing her struggle through fighting zombies. They also make her seem like a pretty reasonable person in this section, taking even more of the sting out of our intended hatred for this character.

So yeah, 'Joel dies, and Ellie gets mad so she goes on kill spree' was a bad story set-up for the get-go, and the execution didn't help matters much.

I think that was intentional as a lot of people would’ve probably demanded a rewrite if they first controlled her after tee time. And then also the part where you run into Joel as her sets that up. If I didn’t know better from the leaks I would’ve been pretty on edge over that whole thing, especially when they reveal their names to her (dumb!).

Good ideas though. I think it would’ve been cool if the theme was simply about how can you grow and learn to forgive the unforgivable. As it is I thought Abby’s portion was twice as good as Ellie’s because it actually stood for something more than petty revenge. She transformed from aggressor to protector, and her bond with Lev went from some kind of guilt-driven obligation to be a better person to something bordering on love and actually being one. Plus her gameplay was more interesting overall; specifically the ground zero section and the skyscraper climb, which did a clever job conveying her fear of heights.

Personally outside of a couple good chase/escape sequences I thought the flashback sequences were the only interesting parts as far as Ellie’s half goes.

Looking back I have to say this is one of the best games of the generation. I'm glad they took the direction they chose pushing these characters into unexpected territories. The first game never grabbed me that much. Enjoyed it but it felt tailor made to pull at the heart strings in ways that were kind of predictable an formulaic. Many movies have that as well where the choices are so deliberate the emotions they need to provoke are somewhat artificial. In the best stories you need to kind of let loose and not over control what the viewer/player should think or feel. TLoU2 had this absolute emotional intensity inside an ambiguous vacuum that became almost surreal in the later portion. I loved how the city bursted open from all the flooding with the shroom zombies as an extension of that nature. In the artbook there are also these wide shots that illustrate the total collapse. It was a perfect fit for the game's exploration of the dark passions in the heart of human kind since we are ofcourse also an extension of that same nature. The game showed so well the duality in emotion and intent and how a kind heart can corrupt through anger and grief. Given the circumstances Ellie and Abby were almost predestined to travel the path they were on. There is a futility to their (self)destructive quest that is really quite tragic. And then in the end when both Ellie and Abby realize, all that they've lost. I don't think I ever experienced a more profound ending in a game.

The game just sticks in my thoughts for whatever reason. It really resonated with me. Just an absolute masterpiece.

I said it before that I think saying the game was about “hate” was a bit of a red herring. The impression I got from the ending made it feel like it was ultimately about letting go of it. Ellie especially, as Abby mostly served as the catalyst for hers, while Abby’s was already on the tail end and as you played her you were already turning a new leaf. So she was kind of a step ahead of Ellie already, and in some ways her half of the game ended up feeling like how the first game felt playing as Joel, where you reluctantly are taking this other character under your wing that helps facilitate your character growth and you eventually bond with.

 

[BrawlMan]

As far as its big theme goes I feel TLOU2 was released about a decade too late. ''Revenge m'kay'' has been a very common plot point so the game being so proud of its theme that ''revenge is bad m'kay'' seems a little big undeserved.

Exactly. Even DMC3 & DMC5's themes of revenge are done better.

 

[Casual Shinji]

That is why this game fails. Other games have already explored the cycle of vengeance/violence trope better than TLOU2. No More Heroes 1 & 2, Killer Is Dead, Killer 7, both Nier games, Metal Gear Solid, Undertale, and even Spec-Ops The Line. Even various GTA games get the job done better TLOU2 in this regard. Character shilling is the worst thing you can do; especially if the characters is heavily morally grey or just plain terrible. It's why I can't stand certain characters in many a shounen anime (MHA, Shaman King, & Naruto) that I usually drop it altogether. The same applies to video games, movies, or books too.

The problem with TLoU2 's vengeance theme (apart from that it's even there) is that it treats it like this is new ground, and it isn't. It's okay to be tropey, it's okay to be unoriginal (TLoU1 says hello), but don't present it like you touched on something non one ever has.

Another issue with the game is that it just has zero charm, and TLoU2 kind of reveals that this is Naughty Dog's defining trait. Naughty Dog isn't particularly good at gameplay, they're good at storytelling but so are a lot of other (AAA) developers, and dito for graphics. It's the charm of the characters in their games that really has people looking forward to the newest Naughty Dog game. Even TLoU1 with how bleak it could get had the charm of Joel and Ellie's relationship at its centre. TLoU2 however is too busy being serious and mopey to try and enchant players to its characters. 'Whatever, they're serious and realistic and performed by professionals, you'll like them, right?' Mmm, no.

 

[stroopwafel]

I said it before that I think saying the game was about “hate” was a bit of a red herring. The impression I got from the ending made it feel like it was ultimately about letting go of it. Ellie especially, as Abby mostly served as the catalyst for hers, while Abby’s was already on the tail end and as you played her you were already turning a new leaf. So she was kind of a step ahead of Ellie already, and in some ways her half of the game ended up feeling like how the first game felt playing as Joel, where you reluctantly are taking this other character under your wing that helps facilitate your character growth and you eventually bond with.

Yep, it's not so much about hate or even revenge but more about pain and what it does to people. It is also not about what the player wants or expects the narrative arc to be about. There is no consolation or life lesson to be found here. Just that pain can lead to dark places. Both Ellie and Abby felt 'real' in ways very few characters in fiction do let alone videogames. There was an intensity in their suffering that was without compromise. Not the fake crap you usually see to make some moral or philosophical statement. Just two people at the end of their rope. And for that I really love both characters.

 

[hanselthecaretaker]

The problem with TLoU2 's vengeance theme (apart from that it's even there) is that it treats it like this is new ground, and it isn't. It's okay to be tropey, it's okay to be unoriginal (TLoU1 says hello), but don't present it like you touched on something non one ever has.

Another issue with the game is that it just has zero charm, and TLoU2 kind of reveals that this is Naughty Dog's defining trait. Naughty Dog isn't particularly good at gameplay, they're good at storytelling but so are a lot of other (AAA) developers, and dito for graphics. It's the charm of the characters in their games that really has people looking forward to the newest Naughty Dog game. Even TLoU1 with how bleak it could get had the charm of Joel and Ellie's relationship at its centre. TLoU2 however is too busy being serious and mopey to try and enchant players to its characters. 'Whatever, they're serious and realistic and performed by professionals, you'll like them, right?' Mmm, no.

Did the game treat it as new ground, or did the marketing? I’m not sure how or where the game felt like it was doing that, other than the fact I’ve played others like it several times.

Agreed on the characters. The handful of times where mild levity was even attempted felt flat, and was vastly outdone by the flashbacks. I didn’t loathe anyone, but it also made them tough to love.

Having said that, outside of pacing issues (which NG+ might alleviate due to not needing to scavenge so much) I’d still rather play this one over the original game. After playing a few hours of the remaster right before, it felt mostly like an awkward experiment that was finally iterated by the sequel into what it should’ve been in the first place. The melee always had that wonderfully deliberate and nuanced feel, but being able to go fully prone and aim in all directions from any position like in Max Payne 3, and little things like being able to dash out of prone and dodge around obstacles in claustrophobic environments felt really good. There were also a few sections where stealth felt a lot more natural and where you’re able to experiment with tactics, and the environments generally afforded more of a thrill in ditching your tails whenever getting spotted.

 

[Casual Shinji]

Did the game treat it as new ground, or did the marketing? I’m not sure how or where the game felt like it was doing that, other than the fact I’ve played others like it several times.

Well, the game doesn't really bother with anything else narratively or artistically, and with how long they draw the whole process out, it definitely presents it as something that is just SO important. And considering the characerisation is sacrificed as a result, Naughty Dog must've felt what they had to say about revenge was truly unique and profound. But by hammering on this theme so intensely it shows how little there is to say about it. And this is where the 'revenge bad' criticism comes from; not from not being allowed to make a story in which you show that revenge is bad, but from it being your sole point. No subtext, no character growth, no frills or artistic flourishes of any kind, nothing. Just revenge is bad. And in TLoU2 's case also really out of character.

It just never should've been in this story with how the world works and how the characters behave and what they value. It feels crowbarred into Ellie's personality for the sole purpose of getting her into the stealth action gameplay. See, with everything Ellie's been through, not just in the first game but in life in general, NOTHING should've set her off to just leave the safe confines of Jackson and head out into the unknown wastelands of America, short of Jackson itself getting completely raised to the ground. Joel's death be damned, she would not risk what she had in Jackson to petulantly go after the perps, AND freaking drag her girlfriend along to possibly get killed.

But the sequel needs bloody action gameplay, so off we go cuz revenge. How interesting would it have been if the sequel DIDN'T have shooty/stabby action, but had gameplay that fit the characters within this new safe environment that the last game left them in? It could've been Ellie playing the guitar, helping out around Jackson as sort of a mini-open-world, getting to know people, dealing with the threat of infected on occassions, hanging out with Dina, Tommy, and Maria. And then in the background there'd be her relationship with Joel and how it would slowly deteriorate, and how it would effect him, and how it would effect her. THAT would've actually been risky.

 

[hanselthecaretaker]

Well, the game doesn't really bother with anything else narratively or artistically, and with how long they draw the whole process out, it definitely presents it as something that is just SO important. And considering the characerisation is sacrificed as a result, Naughty Dog must've felt what they had to say about revenge was truly unique and profound. But by hammering on this theme so intensely it shows how little there is to say about it. And this is where the 'revenge bad' criticism comes from; not from not being allowed to make a story in which you show that revenge is bad, but from it being your sole point. No subtext, no character growth, no frills or artistic flourishes of any kind, nothing. Just revenge is bad. And in TLoU2 's case also really out of character.

It just never should've been in this story with how the world works and how the characters behave and what they value. It feels crowbarred into Ellie's personality for the sole purpose of getting her into the stealth action gameplay. See, with everything Ellie's been through, not just in the first game but in life in general, NOTHING should've set her off to just leave the safe confines of Jackson and head out into the unknown wastelands of America, short of Jackson itself getting completely raised to the ground. Joel's death be damned, she would not risk what she had in Jackson to petulantly go after the perps, AND freaking drag her girlfriend along to possibly get killed.

But the sequel needs bloody action gameplay, so off we go cuz revenge. How interesting would it have been if the sequel DIDN'T have shooty/stabby action, but had gameplay that fit the characters within this new safe environment that the last game left them in? It could've been Ellie playing the guitar, helping out around Jackson as sort of a mini-open-world, getting to know people, dealing with the threat of infected on occassions, hanging out with Dina, Tommy, and Maria. And then in the background there'd be her relationship with Joel and how it would slowly deteriorate, and how it would effect him, and how it would effect her. THAT would've actually been risky.

So, basically a big budget Life is Strange? That might’ve been a wee bit too risky, changing the genre completely. The few walk n talk sections as it is (in particular Abby going through the compound) were excruciating to bear given the already horrid pacing issues. People would have to about-face their thinking to even get on board let alone stay for the entire ride. Maybe that’s something for Naughty Dog to consider for the next IP though.

Having said that, when considering Ellie’s flaws and guilt complex it’s not unreasonable to think she would venture off. She appeared to be mulling it over for quite a while, so it was certainly not a spontaneous choice. Lie or not, it seemed like Joel was still her stand-in father figure for the last half of her upbringing, and some of his character strengths (and flaws) probably rubbed off on her in the process. By the ending we also learn she was trying to forgive him, which added another complicated layer, perhaps for the way she treated him beforehand when he did nothing but care for her like a daughter. According to the writing at least, this is evident when she said, “If it was me Joel would be half way to Seattle by now.” when Ashley’s wife cautioned her about going, but ultimately encouraged her to “bring her stupid husband back” or whatever.

I’ve gotten accustomed to simply taking narratives for what they are, trying to find reasoning within the writing and leaving it at that. I’d go crazy if I cared much beyond that, because it would lead too much into the woulda/coulda/shoulda.

 

[Casual Shinji]

So, basically a big budget Life is Strange? That might’ve been a wee bit too risky, changing the genre completely. The few walk n talk sections as it is (in particular Abby going through the compound) were excruciating to bear given the already horrid pacing issues. People would have to about-face their thinking to even get on board let alone stay for the entire ride. Maybe that’s something for Naughty Dog to consider for the next IP though.

No, but not something that feels like it needs to warp the story and characters so that we have a similar gameplay rhythym to the original. The Left Behind DLC had similar issues, where Naughty Dog wanted to tell the tale of Ellie and Riley. But seeing as this was before Ellie was at all combat savey they couldn't very well have Ellie take on loads of zombies and goons while that story was going on. Cue Ellie pre-Winter where she's stuck in a mall looking for supplies for an injured Joel, which has no bearing on the story at all and only serves to grant the player the ability to shoot some stuff.

Having said that, when considering Ellie’s flaws and guilt complex it’s not unreasonable to think she would venture off. She appeared to be mulling it over for quite a while, so it was certainly not a spontaneous choice. Lie or not, it seemed like Joel was still her stand-in father figure for the last half of her upbringing, and some of his character strengths (and flaws) probably rubbed off on her in the process. By the ending we also learn she was trying to forgive him, which added another complicated layer, perhaps for the way she treated him beforehand when he did nothing but care for her like a daughter. According to the writing at least, this is evident when she said, “If it was me Joel would be half way to Seattle by now.” when Ashley’s wife cautioned her about going, but ultimately encouraged her to “bring her stupid husband back” or whatever.

It certainly felt spontaneous seeing as she was already chewing Tommy's ear off about it before Joel was even in the ground. She was even wearing that same grey hoodie on the day of Joel's death, so for all we know it was that same night. If Ellie was mulling it over for quite some time the game really didn't do a good job of making that clear. I'd be a bit more lenient on this if we actually saw Ellie trying to pick her life back up for the next following months. Trying to move on, but having the trauma be too great to let it go. This is why the farm section later on handles this better, because we see Ellie try and be happy with her new family for about 18 months or so, but the trauma not allowing her to be. There it works, but at the start of the game, no.

They COULD have made it so Ellie only ventures out to go get Tommy back, and through circumstance gets dragged into a mindset of vengeance. The gameplay even seems framed in such a way, since Ellie doesn't kill a human being until she gets captured by the WLF and stabs the guy she slashed on the night of Joel's death, and only because he's throttling Dina. Before that all you kill are infected. BUT Ellie is written to be out for blood from the start, from complaining to Tommy to nagging to Maria about letting her 'go get those fuckers'. There's no reluctance that turns into acceptance, which turns into catharsis, and ultimately vengeance. Nope, just instant blood thirst.

And we never see Joel's flaws rub off on her, because the end of the first game already fractures their relationship, and the following 4 years only has Ellie distance herself more from him. And the story is told so out of sync that by the time we know what's what we're 20+ hours into the game without a proper motivation. Heck, we don't even see Joel be flawed enough to rub off on her, other than lying to her face, but this has no negative impact on her personality either.

 

[BrawlMan]

A little something for people that enjoyed the game.

 

[hanselthecaretaker]

A little something for people that enjoyed the game.

They knew what they were doing. Funny how the clickers at the end kinda glitched out frozen in place and the just drop down to their knees.

 

[stroopwafel]

A little something for people that enjoyed the game.

2:40 Those kidney punches with the hammer. Ouch.

 

[deleted20220709]

DELETED