Biden's Healthcare plan: Despite the rumors, yes, it is actually CENTERED around the public option.

[tippy2k2]

You know, if you guys are going to keep taking these cheap little potshots at me every time I say I'm going to look more into the plan, I'm going to be done posting in any of these kind of threads because I'm getting awfully sick of the passive aggressive shots. Convincing me that voting for Corporate Democrats is the way forward is going to be awfully hard for you when I just stop coming into these threads...

As for the items in question, I finally for once went to the Obamacare site and tried to "sign up" because I actually am not terribly familiar with the actual costs and whatnot (I've heard bad things but figured maybe it was time that I looked at it myself). Jesus Christ, these prices are high. The cheaper plans (the kind of plans that give you a $7000 deductible, rendering them virtually worthless for any average person to actually use short of "Shit hits the fan and hits the fan hard" situations) are $210ish. The plan that is closest to what I have offered at my work ($3,000 deductible and 70% coverage after you've hit it) was $286 per month.

Now granted, I make too much money so I can't see what the credits and whatnot would look like (because I don't qualify for any of it) so I'm not sure how this would work for a poorer person who currently can't afford insurance (for myself, this would be a huge downgrade as my insurance payment per month would go from $90 a month or so to $286 per month but to be fair to the Obamacare thing, my employers pays $250 of my insurance, making it $340 total but I still wouldn't make the switch because that doesn't help me as an individual). On that, I've heard just as many people who credit Obamacare with finally allowing them to go see a doctor and I've seen people credit Obamacare for giving them useless insurance that they still can't use because it has a huge deductible. It's again something I'd have to look more into but from what I can see and from what I've heard from people, Obamacare is regarded as a pretty big shitshow, which is what Biden seems to still be pushing here.

Honestly the hardest part of any of these discussions is there are no actual numbers or insurance policies in place to see if what Biden is trying to push through would be any good. An Obamacare public care for all could be a downright Utopia if the insurance is actually affordable and actually useful to cover things or it could be a complete hell on Earth for people as people currently without insurance are forced to buy insurance they can't afford to use while people who currently have insurance would never switch over because the public insurance option is shit...

 

[crimson5pheonix]

You know, if you guys are going to keep taking these cheap little potshots at me every time I say I'm going to look more into the plan, I'm going to be done posting in any of these kind of threads because I'm getting awfully sick of the passive aggressive shots. Convincing me that voting for Corporate Democrats is the way forward is going to be awfully hard for you when I just stop coming into these threads...

As for the items in question, I finally for once went to the Obamacare site and tried to "sign up" because I actually am not terribly familiar with the actual costs and whatnot (I've heard bad things but figured maybe it was time that I looked at it myself). Jesus Christ, these prices are high. The cheaper plans (the kind of plans that give you a $7000 deductible, rendering them virtually worthless for any average person to actually use short of "Shit hits the fan and hits the fan hard" situations) are $210ish. The plan that is closest to what I have offered at my work ($3,000 deductible and 70% coverage after you've hit it) was $286 per month.

Now granted, I make too much money so I can't see what the credits and whatnot would look like (because I don't qualify for any of it) so I'm not sure how this would work for a poorer person who currently can't afford insurance (for myself, this would be a huge downgrade as my insurance payment per month would go from $90 a month or so to $286 per month but to be fair to the Obamacare thing, my employers pays $250 of my insurance, making it $340 total but I still wouldn't make the switch because that doesn't help me as an individual). On that, I've heard just as many people who credit Obamacare with finally allowing them to go see a doctor and I've seen people credit Obamacare for giving them useless insurance that they still can't use because it has a huge deductible. It's again something I'd have to look more into but from what I can see and from what I've heard from people, Obamacare is regarded as a pretty big shitshow, which is what Biden seems to still be pushing here.

Honestly the hardest part of any of these discussions is there are no actual numbers or insurance policies in place to see if what Biden is trying to push through would be any good. An Obamacare public care for all could be a downright Utopia if the insurance is actually affordable and actually useful to cover things or it could be a complete hell on Earth for people as people currently without insurance are forced to buy insurance they can't afford to use while people who currently have insurance would never switch over because the public insurance option is shit...

Hey, nobody claimed the ACA was effective, just that it helped with coverage.

 

[lil devils x]

Oh right, he wants the individual mandate back.

He'll veto M4A, a program popular with democrats and independents, along with a sizable chunk of republicans, but he'll put the individual mandate back in which is unpopular with everyone because it is an awful awful idea.

Every country on earth that has universal healthcare has an individual mandate for a reason. here's why:
1) when people do not have health insurance, either public or private, when the go to the ER and not pay the bill as is most common for those without insurance, it causes undue stress on the system. Those non payers and underpayments are the reason we have a record number of hospitals closing right now.

2) The system is unsustainable unless everyone is enrolled. You pay in when you are well so that you are covered when you do get sick or injured. Even under medicare for all there is a mandate for everyone to be enrolled.

Coverage mandate isn't an awful idea, it is the only way any of these systems work at all and is necessary. What was awful was doing so without a public option and subsidy expansion and no medicaid expansion. At least this way, they have that covered so we should not have the same problems. The states that rejected the medicaid expansion screwed up the mandate int he ACA. The public option+ subsidy expansion should fully plug that hole this time.

 

[lil devils x]

Obama ran on closing GTMO, and it's still here public option, and yet it's nowhere to be found because his "mentor" Joe Lieberman voted no on it, and he was too chickenshit to invoke budget reconciliation or end the fillerbuster , he ran on ending the wars but started new wars.

In fact, I have a whole list of his broken promises.

| PolitiFact

PolitiFact is a fact-checking website that rates the accuracy of claims by elected officials and others on its Truth-O-Meter.

www.politifact.com

And somehow something someone else did is not another's fault? Considering the guy we currently have in office has lied more than any president in our history, I am not as worried about Biden. Judge Biden by Biden and Obama by Obama and politics of GTMO has little to do with healthcare.

 

[lil devils x]

Hey, nobody claimed the ACA was effective, just that it helped with coverage.

What we actually say, from working in healthcare ourselves and seeing this first hand, is that is saved lives and allowed access to treatment for millions.

 

[lil devils x]

You know, if you guys are going to keep taking these cheap little potshots at me every time I say I'm going to look more into the plan, I'm going to be done posting in any of these kind of threads because I'm getting awfully sick of the passive aggressive shots. Convincing me that voting for Corporate Democrats is the way forward is going to be awfully hard for you when I just stop coming into these threads...

As for the items in question, I finally for once went to the Obamacare site and tried to "sign up" because I actually am not terribly familiar with the actual costs and whatnot (I've heard bad things but figured maybe it was time that I looked at it myself). Jesus Christ, these prices are high. The cheaper plans (the kind of plans that give you a $7000 deductible, rendering them virtually worthless for any average person to actually use short of "Shit hits the fan and hits the fan hard" situations) are $210ish. The plan that is closest to what I have offered at my work ($3,000 deductible and 70% coverage after you've hit it) was $286 per month.

Now granted, I make too much money so I can't see what the credits and whatnot would look like (because I don't qualify for any of it) so I'm not sure how this would work for a poorer person who currently can't afford insurance (for myself, this would be a huge downgrade as my insurance payment per month would go from $90 a month or so to $286 per month but to be fair to the Obamacare thing, my employers pays $250 of my insurance, making it $340 total but I still wouldn't make the switch because that doesn't help me as an individual). On that, I've heard just as many people who credit Obamacare with finally allowing them to go see a doctor and I've seen people credit Obamacare for giving them useless insurance that they still can't use because it has a huge deductible. It's again something I'd have to look more into but from what I can see and from what I've heard from people, Obamacare is regarded as a pretty big shitshow, which is what Biden seems to still be pushing here.

Honestly the hardest part of any of these discussions is there are no actual numbers or insurance policies in place to see if what Biden is trying to push through would be any good. An Obamacare public care for all could be a downright Utopia if the insurance is actually affordable and actually useful to cover things or it could be a complete hell on Earth for people as people currently without insurance are forced to buy insurance they can't afford to use while people who currently have insurance would never switch over because the public insurance option is shit...

I actually appreciate your willingness to take on the discussion, and I hope you are not disparaged by what I have said here. Here is my problem. You initially didn't say anything positive about Biden's plan. You didn't even read Biden's plan he posted Monday yourself, because if you had, you would have seen it isn't bad . You only posted on here after someone posted a negative rumor and claimed that you had previously had your hopes up but that rumor was enough to make you lose hope. I think you get me wrong here. I don't want to discourage you, not at all. I only want you to actually look into the actual details of it from the source rather than believing whatever the tabloid of the day says about it. If you genuinely like his plan or dislike his plan after actually reading it, I would love to discuss that. I just get irritated with people jumping on the negativity train every time someone makes up some nonsense without actually finding out the truth themselves.

I am glad you finally checked out the Healthcare exchange, you have to make sure you go during enrollment period that starts in November though, otherwise you have to qualify for a " special enrollment period" or have to pay really high prices and most people do not qualify for that. My brother's insurance payments went through the roof the month that Trump withheld the subsidies and they dropped him supposedly " by mistake" and they made him get a new plan that wasn't as good as his old plan due to it being out of the normal enrollment period and that was one hell of a BS hassle for him when it happened last year. I tried to help him get it sorted and even though I was finally able to do so, It was a severe pain in the arse.. Second of all, people can have their monthly premiums differed to their tax return, like my brother does, and those who make under a certain amount do not have to pay them at all. Third, If you look at Biden's plan, as mentioned above, :

4)The ACA guarantees that preventative health care services must be provided with no patient cost-sharing, Biden proposes to make this whole scheme more generous across several dimensions, first by switching to the use of “gold” plans as the benchmark (meaning lower deductibles and copayments), second by making subsidies more generous across the board by reducing the share of family income that’s supposed to go to premiums, and third by eliminating the cap on financial assistance so even more comfortable families would get at least some help from the government.
**This means more people will qualify for the " subsidy loopholes" i discussed earlier on another thread, and they will receive more funding than is currently made available**

Biden admitted that the current ACA subsidy requirements were too low and his new plan removes those caps. This in combination with the public option will reduce the payments and have more people qualify for the subsidies to allow for lower payments allowing more people to have access to free/ low cost healthcare. That is an important issue and I am glad you brought it up. Many in places like Texas were not meant to have to use the subsidies at all, they were supposed to qualify for the medicaid expansion, but since Texas rejected it, they fell into the subsidy loophole instead. Thank goodness for it being there though, otherwise they would have been screwed out of healthcare access all together. Biden expanding that also allows him to bypass the states blocking medicaid options to be able to provide them with care even if the GOP tries to block it.

We can see that what Biden is trying to push through would be better than what we currently have because it is actually addressing the current issues we have with the current plans. He is directly targeting what we need fixed, and luckily in a direct way rather than trying to give us the run around. I of course think that any plan, even if we were to have had M4A on the table right now would still need a lot of work after implementation as problems come up, but at least we are making progress towards making it better in the meantime. I don't think any plan no matter how good it sounds on paper will be perfect out of the box. It is going to take work and tweaking to make anything work. We WANT people to give feedback positive and negative so they can figure out what works and what needs work, and we expect congress to still work on fixing it after when issues arise and are brought to their attention. That is what I see Biden trying to do here. HE is directly trying to address the problems with the ACA that people have brought up. Hopefully we can get the votes to make it happen.

I just hope everyone who wants things to improve can manage to unite to make it happen otherwise we will keep bickering while the ship is sinking until it is too late. That is the main reason I get frustrated. It feels like our ship is sinking and the few people trying to help us are being given hell right now while everyone else bickers nonstop about frivolous things instead of helping solve the problems. For me, it is all about solving the problems and for the problems that are not being solved yet, we just try to save as many as we can in the process while trying to figure out a new plan to be able to solve those later. As much as I would like everything to be solved, I understand it will not happen this time. We just need to buy some time and not make it worse while we still try to get there later.

 

[Buyetyen]

I just hope everyone who wants things to improve can manage to unite to make it happen otherwise we will keep bickering while the ship is sinking until it is too late. That is the main reason I get frustrated. It feels like our ship is sinking and the few people trying to help us are being given hell right now while everyone else bickers nonstop about frivolous things instead of helping solve the problems. For me, it is all about solving the problems and for the problems that are not being solved yet, we just try to save as many as we can in the process while trying to figure out a new plan to be able to solve those later. As much as I would like everything to be solved, I understand it will not happen this time. We just need to buy some time and not make it worse while we still try to get there later.

I'm with you. It frustrates the hell out of me how many people use cynicism as an excuse for inaction.

 

[tippy2k2]

snip

I guess ultimately my problem with this is still my problem with this pre-looking into it; Obamacare seems to be pretty shit and all Biden seems to want to do is just build on it.

You are stating that Biden wants to do Obamacare but make it not shit but he was part of the first round of Obamacare and we ended up with Obamacare out of the deal. Not only that, but he also wants to put back in the mandate that you either have insurance or you're going to get smacked once again with a fine so we're right back to one of the big issues that I've seen people have with it; you get a shit insurance that doesn't do you any good or you get fined for not having insurance. Either way, people are getting hammered financially for something they can't even afford to use.

From everything I've read (and now looked into myself attempting to sign up for insurance), Obamacare seems to be one of the worst insurance options you can get and if you have an employer based insurance plan, you'd have zero reason to ever leave it. How is Obamacare going to have all this supposed leverage against the insurance companies to make their prices plummet and eventually be a M4A-style plan as everyone flocks to it for being so wonderful compared to their employment-based insurance if it's still nothing but the unemployed/disabled/anyone who doesn't have employment based insurance because it is far more expensive for less value than what employment based insurance gets you?

I feel like Biden is trying to shove the square peg that is Obamacare through the round hole that is our current health care system. He seems absolutely determined to make it fit, no matter how little sense it makes.

 

[Buyetyen]

I guess ultimately my problem with this is still my problem with this pre-looking into it; Obamacare seems to be pretty shit and all Biden seems to want to do is just build on it.

You're not wrong. On the other hand, the ACA is the only reason I can afford my medications and therapy. It's a shitty compromise of a law, but there are people it has helped.

 

[tippy2k2]

You're not wrong. On the other hand, the ACA is the only reason I can afford my medications and therapy. It's a shitty compromise of a law, but there are people it has helped.

And there are a lot of people it also actively hurt, either because their rates went up (at least they told me their rates had gone up, I have no real way to verify that) or because people who can't afford insurance are now forced to either pay for insurance they can't afford or get hit with a fine.

I don't think anyone would argue that ACA has helped no one but at least from what I've seen in talking to people, it seems to hurt a lot of people just as much as it helps other people. All this shitty compromise has done is shifted around who gets the shit covered end of the stick.

 

[lil devils x]

I guess ultimately my problem with this is still my problem with this pre-looking into it; Obamacare seems to be pretty shit and all Biden seems to want to do is just build on it.

You are stating that Biden wants to do Obamacare but make it not shit but he was part of the first round of Obamacare and we ended up with Obamacare out of the deal. Not only that, but he also wants to put back in the mandate that you either have insurance or you're going to get smacked once again with a fine so we're right back to one of the big issues that I've seen people have with it; you get a shit insurance that doesn't do you any good or you get fined for not having insurance. Either way, people are getting hammered financially for something they can't even afford to use.

From everything I've read (and now looked into myself attempting to sign up for insurance), Obamacare seems to be one of the worst insurance options you can get and if you have an employer based insurance plan, you'd have zero reason to ever leave it. How is Obamacare going to have all this supposed leverage against the insurance companies to make their prices plummet and eventually be a M4A-style plan as everyone flocks to it for being so wonderful compared to their employment-based insurance if it's still nothing but the unemployed/disabled/anyone who doesn't have employment based insurance because it is far more expensive for less value than what employment based insurance gets you?

I feel like Biden is trying to shove the square peg that is Obamacare through the round hole that is our current health care system. He seems absolutely determined to make it fit, no matter how little sense it makes.

I am stating Biden is trying to fix what was broken in Obamacare. Congress wrote the affordable care act and voted on it, Not Obama or Biden. It is nicknamed "Obamacare" because he was president at the time, not that he had anything to do with the writing of it. In addition, he signed it because he knew it was saving millions of lives, and it has been. We just need to fix the problems with it, and that is what he is doing here.

What happens if you lose your employer based insurance? What about the many jobs who don't have employee insurance? IN addition, not all jobs even offer good employee insurance, many plans are just plain awful. Prior to the ACA, when my Dad lost his great employer based insurance he had working for GE, if he wanted to keep it , it would have cost him over $2000 a MONTH JUST for his premium. That isn't including the deductible or copays. After "Obamacare" He would have qualified for a $200 a month plan and would have been able to differ that to tax return like my brother had. For so many in jobs where they do not have access to employer based insurance, or who lost their plans, Obamacare has been a life saver.

Here is the reality though. It isn't a matter of the people who need Obamacare and people who don;t really being different groups. In reality they are the same group, at different points in their life. When we start out, we are healthy and working and paying into our insurance plans for many years, then something happens. We either get sick, or hurt, or some " corporate restructuring" happens and they lay you off. You lose your employer based insurance and all the money you already paid in. You feel screwed, but you can't afford insurance because you don't have a job. If you are sick or hurt, it is even worse because you often cannot work at all to earn the money to get the insurance you need to get better. The issue is these are all the same people at different points in their life. Most people will not still be in their same job from youth to retirement. That happens very rarely now. Most people will change jobs repeatedly and have gaps in their employment in the process. Many will hit that mid life gap before retirement as well ( the one where companies ditch you to get out of paying your retirement package) .. that is where this has been most important.

It actually does make sense though. We initially set up the ACA to fill this gap in healthcare coverage. Now he is shifting it by " adding a public option that is available to everyone". If it is " medicare like" as he suggests, that is already better than what many people have now in their insurance, as the reality with what many people have in their insurance is you pay in when you are well, and then they dump you when something really happens. The second you start costing them money, they find away to get rid of you. The better we make this public option, the more competition it will provide to insurers. The reason why there isn't a lot of completion for medicare is that it covers much of what the insurers would cover and more already, and it just isn't profitable for them to attempt to compete with it. Time will tell though. Even if they were giving us M4A right now, we still wouldn't have any guarantees at this stage what the end results would be once congress got a hold of it. Even the ACA started out with a public option and then dropped it. At least this time that is the primary focus here, so that hopefully will give it a better chance on it's own.

We have to at least HAVE a public option in place for them to be able to improve on it though. We have to start with that step and then try to work from there. As it is it is under attack from every direction and I can assure you Pharma and insurers are ruthless.If we ever want anything to change long term though, we need to push this through past them first. If it works as intended, we will have M4A closer in reach than ever as the plan here is to drive bad insurers out of business all together while we shift people over creating a solid path to M4A when we do.

 

[Buyetyen]

And there are a lot of people it also actively hurt, either because their rates went up (at least they told me their rates had gone up, I have no real way to verify that) or because people who can't afford insurance are now forced to either pay for insurance they can't afford or get hit with a fine.

I don't think anyone would argue that ACA has helped no one but at least from what I've seen in talking to people, it seems to hurt a lot of people just as much as it helps other people. All this shitty compromise has done is shifted around who gets the shit covered end of the stick.

Putting the thumbscrews to Biden and a Democratic House and Senate still offers far more hope for reform than what we would get with the Republicans. I know that's a really bleak statement, but we're a failed state so none of our paths forward are going to be fun.

 

[lil devils x]

And there are a lot of people it also actively hurt, either because their rates went up (at least they told me their rates had gone up, I have no real way to verify that) or because people who can't afford insurance are now forced to either pay for insurance they can't afford or get hit with a fine.

I don't think anyone would argue that ACA has helped no one but at least from what I've seen in talking to people, it seems to hurt a lot of people just as much as it helps other people. All this shitty compromise has done is shifted around who gets the shit covered end of the stick.

They have another option, but they have to differ their payments to their subsidies and if their income is low enough they don't pay them at all. Biden's plan allows people with higher incomes to also qualify for those subsidies too so middle income earners would qualify as well. That would mean they make no monthly payments and instead defer them to their tax return, then when they do their taxes at the end of the year, they wouldn't have to pay them at all.

 

[Worgen]

And there are a lot of people it also actively hurt, either because their rates went up (at least they told me their rates had gone up, I have no real way to verify that) or because people who can't afford insurance are now forced to either pay for insurance they can't afford or get hit with a fine.

Rates go up every year for every insurance, that's not an uncommon thing. From everything I have seen though, they didn't go up as much as usual and started to even out by the time trump was really able to start trying to sabotage it.

 

[Gergar12]

Which Biden are we getting? Are we getting DNC convention Biden who is too chickenshit to name the public option along with Bernie who is being blackmailed into supporting Biden by the MSM?

Or are we getting the Biden that wants to be in power, and serve his corporate donors. I would argue the latter.

Biden ideology is that of neoliberalism/3rd way, like Obama, Clinton, and even British Tony Blair who forced the UK into the Iraq War.

 

[The Rogue Wolf]

...along with Bernie who is being blackmailed into supporting Biden by the MSM?

Are you insinuating that Sanders has done something illegal or immoral with which the media could blackmail him? Or are you just making up your own theory as to why Sanders dropped out, with the fantasy that if we could just "stop the evil guys" you could have him as President after all?

 

[Revnak]

Oh, ok, so nothing new at all, just an article from a year ago that you decided to make into another thread. Aight.

 

[Gergar12]

Are you insinuating that Sanders has done something illegal or immoral with which the media could blackmail him? Or are you just making up your own theory as to why Sanders dropped out, with the fantasy that if we could just "stop the evil guys" you could have him as President after all?

No, it's common sense if Bernie Sanders treated Biden worse, the MSM would attack him, it's that simple, and it's not like they haven't attacked him for not fundraising for Biden, its that they would do what Wapo did spin 16 stories in a short period of time, and tarnish his progressive allies, etc.

Or maybe he doesn't want to redo the "mistakes" of 2016 and support Biden less like with HRC which admittedly was less than his support for Biden, and get the bad Orange man elected for 4 more years.

Or theory 3 he is actually friends with Joe Biden, and Chuck Schumer, and isn't as much of a bomb-thrower as we think he is, yet hated the Clintons because Bill Clinton created an ice age for progressives in the 1990s.

I am more inclined to believe in theory 1.

 

[lil devils x]

No, it's common sense if Bernie Sanders treated Biden worse, the MSM would attack him, it's that simple, and it's not like they haven't attacked him for not fundraising for Biden, its that they would do what Wapo did spin 16 stories in a short period of time, and tarnish his progressive allies, etc.

Or maybe he doesn't want to redo the "mistakes" of 2016 and support Biden less like with HRC which admittedly was less than his support for Biden, and get the bad Orange man elected for 4 more years.

Or theory 3 he is actually friends with Joe Biden, and Chuck Schumer, and isn't as much of a bomb-thrower as we think he is, yet hated the Clintons because Bill Clinton created an ice age for progressives in the 1990s.

I am more inclined to believe in theory 1.

Bernie isn't worried about being treated badly.. he is an independent. The reason Bernie is nice to Biden is that he knows that Biden is Bernie's ONLY path now to getting some of his plans passed. That is it. No need for conspiracies. He will tell you why himself. It would do you well to listen to what he actually says instead of make up your own theories why things are the way they are. Bernie is not afraid to tell you. If people would just listen to what he is telling them, a lot of these rumors would die out fast,

 

[Tireseas]

Bernie isn't worried about being treated badly.. he is an independent. The reason Bernie is nice to Biden is that he knows that Biden is Bernie's ONLY path now to getting some of his plans passed. That is it. No need for conspiracies. He will tell you why himself. It would do you well to listen to what he actually says instead of make up your own theories why things are the way they are. Bernie is not afraid to tell you. If people would just listen to what he is telling them, a lot of these rumors would die out fast,

It doesn't hurt they also spent two decades as colleagues of the Senate and another eight years in legislative negotiations when he was VP under Obama. Sanders knows Biden, even if he disagrees with Biden on some issues and policy solutions. Sanders sees Biden as the current path to a more progressive party and a more progressive county that just isn't there with Trump, and picking Harris, who may not subscribe to Sander's combative style, but remains one of the most progressive senators currently sitting in the Senate today, likely helped him solidify his endorsement even further.