Armed civilian, 17, shoots 2 dead during Kenosha happening

[Dwarvenhobble]

You showed up to defy/intimidate them, almost certainly have social media history to back that, are dressed up as and collaborating with a militia that’s threatening them, are brandishing a rifle (who fucking cares that it’s legal, it’s a fucking gun), and have been chummy with the cops they’re protesting against all day. I don’t know if that amounts to “nothing,” though I’ll agree it doesn’t amount to “deserving of being beaten.” I don’t think “touched my gun” deserves “shoot to death” either.

No you showed up to stop the attacking a business. They don't cause your trouble you don't cause them any and Kyle reportedly even helped give medical attention to some protesters who came by earlier in the night.

The "militia" also wouldn't have been there if the business owner's car lot hadn't been torched the previous night.

None of us are arguing with accurate specificity in any case because the necessary information for that isn’t “some videos I gawked at on the internet.” We’re all generalizing in broad strokes and demanding people keep looking at different angles of a murder to decipher the exact events is honestly sadistic. It looks to me like that part can be left to the jury, and that there’s enough leeway to presume either conclusion is correct.

Yet that is the route to the truth and this is an argument on the internet you are right it can be left to the jury but the footage doesn't give anywhere near the leeway you think.

 

[Revnak]

In context it’s clear my point was that you should’ve held to that conclusion from the start, but you’ve gotten really into selectively quoting me for your Greek Aristocrat fetish.

 

[Houseman]

your Greek Aristocrat fetish

That's my new favorite combination of words to describe "logic".

 

[Revnak]

Yet that is the route to the truth and this is an argument on the internet you are right it can be left to the jury but the footage doesn't give anywhere near the leeway you think.

And yet, having seen all of it, I still think he wasn’t provoked to the degree that shooting was his only option. He made a split second dipshit decision.

No you showed up to stop the attacking a business. They don't cause your trouble you don't cause them any and Kyle reportedly even helped give medical attention to some protesters who came by earlier in the night.

You can do that without a gun, as I said earlier, and threatening death for a building is probably disproportionate.

The "militia" also wouldn't have been there if the business owner's car lot hadn't been torched the previous night.

The militia was celebrating the killings the moment they heard about them and were there to kill Antifa. They aren’t hiding that, they talked about it openly on telegram and the like.

 

[Revnak]

That's my new favorite combination of words to describe "logic".

Only with a capital L.
Edit - seriously, fucking bringing up logical fallacies like it’s 2008 again.

 

[Houseman]

Only with a capital L.
Edit - seriously, fucking bringing up logical fallacies like it’s 2008 again.

I forgot, all the logical fallacies expired in 2009 when Obama was elected. That was his first executive order. Ever since then we've been free to violate the law of non-contradiction, not violate it, do both, and neither, all at the same time!

 

[Revnak]

I forgot, all the logical fallacies expired in 2009 when Obama was elected. That was his first executive order.

They’ve never been an actual thing of value, just shit you lose points for in debate club.

 

[Mister Mumbler]

Again

NOT KYLE's GUN

Ok, I keep seeing this pop up, but it has always baffled me. Why does it not being Kyle's gun seem like it is such a great thing to you guys? The only way it's good for Kyle is in the point of him not being charged for weapon trafficking back and forth across the state border (which is why it is so awfully convenient that the very first piece of info to come out is this but who knows, stranger things have happened so I won't comment further down that rumor hole). The funny thing is that now, irregardless of the fact of whether or not Kyle's double homicide and assault were justified self-defense, the car shop owner is going to jail for the rest of his life because of it. If what I read of those laws from those flowcharts that got brought in forever ago was correct, he is gonna get two felony charges for the homicides and a third for the assault for providing a weapon to a minor that results in death/assault/grievous bodily harm, and any lawyer worth his bar exam fee is going to be able to argue for reckless child endangerment charges as well, because he knowingly put this kid into a situation so volatile that he felt the need to give him a loaded firearm.

 

[TheMysteriousGX]

They're just trying to argue why their hero wanna-be cop shouldn't be in legal trouble by trying to claim that the broader issue is invalidated due to a minor mixup early on.

It's the "I know she acts like a toddler and looks like a toddler but she's actually a 9000 year old dragon" argument.

 

[Dwarvenhobble]

In context it’s clear my point was that you should’ve held to that conclusion from the start, but you’ve gotten really into selectively

You know I've generally been using the full quotes from you right?

Also I'm not sure what you really mean by "quoting me for your Greek Aristocrat fetish."

And yet, having seen all of it, I still think he wasn’t provoked to the degree that shooting was his only option. He made a split second dipshit decision.

It was the most effective and most likely to lead to success in the cases. True it wasn't his ONLY option but then I don't think a sacrificial judo roll move would have had as a high a chance of success and could have put him in a far worse spot.

You can do that without a gun, as I said earlier, and threatening death for a building is probably disproportionate.

And as I said earlier he was handed it by the owner just in case things went south. He didn't "Threaten death" he was rushed by a dude who yelled "Fuck you" initially and tried to grab the gun off him.

It may be a building but it's one the owner likely poured his life into, that others relied on for employment in the area. That helped support his family. He'd already lost some of that business with the cars in the lot being burned down.

To me it seems rather silly to risk death just to torch a building that has 0 to do with the local Police or authorities and just ends up hurting people who had nothing to do with the present situation.

I get that to some people kicking a dog because they've had a bad day is their screwed up way of coping with things but I still think it's screwed up and I won't be upset if the dog shows it has teeth.

The militia was celebrating the killings the moment they heard about them and were there to kill Antifa. They aren’t hiding that, they talked about it openly on telegram and the like.

You got any evidence that's why they were there?
You got any evidence they even celebrated?

Why am I asking when I think I already know the answer.

I might as well make up some BS back like claiming how those Kyle shot were wanted for multiple counts of arson against Orphanages or something because it's no longer about facts it's just trying to get people to abandon reason and go with knee jerk gut reactions and letting feelings guide them rather than have them kept in check by some kind of logic.

They’ve never been an actual thing of value, just shit you lose points for in debate club.

Fallacy Fallacy invoked.

Ok, I keep seeing this pop up, but it has always baffled me. Why does it not being Kyle's gun seem like it is such a great thing to you guys? The only way it's good for Kyle is in the point of him not being charged for weapon trafficking back and forth across the state border (which is why it is so awfully convenient that the very first piece of info to come out is this but who knows, stranger things have happened so I won't comment further down that rumor hole). The funny thing is that now, irregardless of the fact of whether or not Kyle's double homicide and assault were justified self-defense, the car shop owner is going to jail for the rest of his life because of it. If what I read of those laws from those flowcharts that got brought in forever ago was correct, he is gonna get two felony charges for the homicides and a third for the assault for providing a weapon to a minor that results in death/assault/grievous bodily harm, and any lawyer worth his bar exam fee is going to be able to argue for reckless child endangerment charges as well, because he knowingly put this kid into a situation so volatile that he felt the need to give him a loaded firearm.

The present case being brought is for 1st degree murder.

This requires evidence of premeditation.

The main argument for this was Kyle drove across state lines with the gun to join the group.

The reality. Kyle got off work in Kenosha and went directly to join the group and was given the gun there.

That also invalidates the following charges people suggested could come:

Illegal transportation of a firearm across state lines

Illegal ownership of a firearm in Kenosha while underage (possession of one if it is some-one else's being used with permission I believe is fine)

Also the car shop owner isn't technically liable either I don't believe unless Kyle is found to have no acted in self defence.

Child endangerment is maybe the only charge that could stand here.

They're just trying to argue why their hero wanna-be cop shouldn't be in legal trouble by trying to claim that the broader issue is invalidated due to a minor mixup early on.

It's the "I know she acts like a toddler and looks like a toddler but she's actually a 9000 year old dragon" argument.

No it's house built on sand argument.
It's one of the first main lies holding things up.
It's one of the best places to start pulling at stuff because it's the one people are willing to repeat. Though I can't say how many here actually do believe Kyle is a White Supremacist but they're too afraid to say so for how it will come off PR wise to just openly say that's what they think without any real evidence.

 

[Mister Mumbler]

The present case being brought is for 1st degree murder.

This requires evidence of premeditation.

The main argument for this was Kyle drove across state lines with the gun to join the group.

The reality. Kyle got off work in Kenosha and went directly to join the group and was given the gun there.

That also invalidates the following charges people suggested could come:

Illegal transportation of a firearm across state lines

Illegal ownership of a firearm in Kenosha while underage (possession of one if it is some-one else's being used with permission I believe is fine)

Also the car shop owner isn't technically liable either I don't believe unless Kyle is found to have no acted in self defence.

Child endangerment is maybe the only charge that could stand here.

From 948.60 of Wisconsin State law subsection 2)

a) Any person under 18 years of age who possesses or goes armed with a dangerous weapon is guilty of a Class A misdemeanor.
(b) Except as provided in par. (c), any person who intentionally sells, loans or gives a dangerous weapon to a person under 18 years of age is guilty of a Class I felony.
948.60(2)(c)(c) Whoever violates par. (b) is guilty of a Class H felony if the person under 18 years of age under par. (b) discharges the firearm and the discharge causes death to himself, herself or another.

So it actually appears I misspoke earlier; the homicides and assault fall under the same level of felony charge, just him giving it to him is a separate one, my mistake.

And far as the first degree murder charge is concerned, there are two options for why that came about; 1) the prosecution found something we don't know (social media posts, maybe even just a notebook full of remarks, who knows) that makes them believe he went there with a purpose or 2) the one I'm actually leaning towards being true, whoever issued that murder in the first charge did so because they wanted this kid to walk by giving an absolutely ridiculous charge they knew wouldn't stick and shield him with the whole double jeopardy thing.

 

[Revnak]

You know I've generally been using the full quotes from you right?

Also I'm not sure what you really mean by "quoting me for your Greek Aristocrat fetish."

These were to Houseman, not you.

It was the most effective and most likely to lead to success in the cases. True it wasn't his ONLY option but then I don't think a sacrificial judo roll move would have had as a high a chance of success and could have put him in a far worse spot.

Yet of everyone else there put in perhaps similar situations, nobody else did this and nobody else died. I’ve seen guns at protests and people yelling at them or touching their guns with zero murders. None. There definitely was a wealth of not murder options he didn’t pick.

And as I said earlier he was handed it by the owner just in case things went south. He didn't "Threaten death" he was rushed by a dude who yelled "Fuck you" initially and tried to grab the gun off him.

He was carrying the gun around in hand the entire night dude. There’s other videos of him with the gun out.

It may be a building but it's one the owner likely poured his life into, that others relied on for employment in the area. That helped support his family. He'd already lost some of that business with the cars in the lot being burned down.


To me it seems rather silly to risk death just to torch a building that has 0 to do with the local Police or authorities and just ends up hurting people who had nothing to do with the present situation.

Yeah and two people have now died for that lot. Rad.

You can desire local businesses not come to harm without jumping to “kill all looters.” Proportionality is supposedly part of a reasonable justice system.

I get that to some people kicking a dog because they've had a bad day is their screwed up way of coping with things but I still think it's screwed up and I won't be upset if the dog shows it has teeth.

If a dog kills someone it typically gets put down.

You got any evidence that's why they were there?
You got any evidence they even celebrated?

Why am I asking when I think I already know the answer.

This was not hard to find.

I might as well make up some BS back like claiming how those Kyle shot were wanted for multiple counts of arson against Orphanages or something because it's no longer about facts it's just trying to get people to abandon reason and go with knee jerk gut reactions and letting feelings guide them rather than have them kept in check by some kind of logic.

Yes, the knee jerk reaction of not being ok with people getting shot. A terrible emotional response only felt by the evil leftoid. I appreciate your enlightening perspective Mr. Shapiro.

Fallacy Fallacy invoked.

I hate these memes so much.

 

[Dwarvenhobble]

Yet of everyone else there put in perhaps similar situations, nobody else did this and nobody else died. I’ve seen guns at protests and people yelling at them or touching their guns with zero murders. None. There definitely was a wealth of not murder options he didn’t pick.

Who else was put in a similar situation that night again?

They went after Kyle because he was at one point slightly more separated from the others in his group as he went over to seemingly check if some-one else was OK before some-one tried to rush him and grab his gun.

He was carrying the gun around in hand the entire night dude. There’s other videos of him with the gun out.

There's also video floating around of him giving first aid to people before the shootings.

Yeah and two people have now died for that lot. Rad.

Two people felt it worth throwing their lives away to try and burn down more of a lot.

You can desire local businesses not come to harm without jumping to “kill all looters.” Proportionality is supposedly part of a reasonable justice system.

What harm was the local business causing?

I was under the impression a car sale lot and garages weren't exactly considered gentrified businesses

If a dog kills someone it typically gets put down.

Depends on the dog and situation

This was not hard to find.
View attachment 788

That's a random image with no proof it comes from the militia like you claim

Reverse image search couldn't even find a source on it and it looks like something that could be knocked up in minutes in paint so for all I know you made this one lol

Yes, the knee jerk reaction of not being ok with people getting shot. A terrible emotional response only felt by the evil leftoid. I appreciate your enlightening perspective Mr. Shapiro.

The Knee jerk reaction of using weighted terms like murderer and terrorist. Telling people how the militia were celebrating the killing and purposefully went there to kill without any proof. Creative false narratives about how Kyle and his associates are evil monsters who set out to kill people etc. Peddling fear.

I hate these memes so much.

No it's a thing that a fallacy being used doesn't discredit the whole argument thus it's a fallacy to try and claim the argument is harmed to any great degree unless the argument can be shown to have relied on the fallacy.

 

[Revnak]

Who else was put in a similar situation that night again?

Someone I imagine. Getting in a fight at this sorta thing isn’t rare. I’ve seen shoving matches and the like all the time around PP and the like in Portland.

They went after Kyle because he was at one point slightly more separated from the others in his group as he went over to seemingly check if some-one else was OK before some-one tried to rush him and grab his gun.

Possibly, yeah. He definitely was on his own for a bit. And?

There's also video floating around of him giving first aid to people before the shootings.

And? People can do good and bad things.

Two people felt it worth throwing their lives away to try and burn down more of a lot.

Their lives were taken. Own that fact. A shooting is not a natural disaster or a suicide.

What harm was the local business causing?

I was under the impression a car sale lot and garages weren't exactly considered gentrified businesses

Who cares? Nothing it is compares to two lost lives.

Depends on the dog and situation

Are you seriously going to get that technical about a metaphor? I said typically.

That's a random image with no proof it comes from the militia like you claim

Reverse image search couldn't even find a source on it and it looks like something that could be knocked up in minutes in paint so for all I know you made this one lol

I just searched his name then hero. I’m not doing a bunch of internet sleuthing for your amusement. I saw it before and moved on with my life because wanting to kill “Antifa” is boring shit for militias.

The Knee jerk reaction of using weighted terms like murderer and terrorist. Telling people how the militia were celebrating the killing and purposefully went there to kill without any proof. Creative false narratives about how Kyle and his associates are evil monsters who set out to kill people etc. Peddling fear.

I’m sorry I called all the civil unrest we’re going through a year ago and have been advocating for any option but people fighting in the streets, but we’re reasonably at the “alarmism” point my dude. We’re absurdly lucky nobody has just opened fire into a crowd yet. Freakishly so. Seen plenty of videos of guys brandishing firearms wildly, safety off, finger on the trigger, and luckily no shots fired. There’s millions of Boomers being programmed with discount Protocols via Qanon. We’re fucked, and more guns is not going to help.

No it's a thing that a fallacy being used doesn't discredit the whole argument thus it's a fallacy to try and claim the argument is harmed to any great degree unless the argument can be shown to have relied on the fallacy.

This is all nerd bullshit.

 

[Dwarvenhobble]

Someone I imagine. Getting in a fight at this sorta thing isn’t rare. I’ve seen shoving matches and the like all the time around PP and the like in Portland.

And also he did have a rifle and they did try to go for that.

Possibly, yeah. He definitely was on his own for a bit. And?

And it's easy to target people on their own if you were a person looking to start trouble.

And? People can do good and bad things.

And shows he wan't there to kill people intentionally.

Their lives were taken. Own that fact. A shooting is not a natural disaster or a suicide.

Those chose their cause and deemed it worth their life for whatever reason.

Who cares? Nothing it is compares to two lost lives.

So families starving to death, people who lost their sources of income and will struggle to live. People don't seem to realise that can be a longer slower more cruel death

Are you seriously going to get that technical about a metaphor? I said typically.

Yes I am to point out how it's not that great a meaphor.

I just searched his name then hero. I’m not doing a bunch of internet sleuthing for your amusement. I saw it before and moved on with my life because wanting to kill “Antifa” is boring shit for militias.

So you can't prove it was from the militia members and literally just found it on a random internet site and hoped I'd blindly accept it as proof of the rather specific thing you said......... Gotcha

I’m sorry I called all the civil unrest we’re going through a year ago and have been advocating for any option but people fighting in the streets, but we’re reasonably at the “alarmism” point my dude. We’re absurdly lucky nobody has just opened fire into a crowd yet. Freakishly so. Seen plenty of videos of guys brandishing firearms wildly, safety off, finger on the trigger, and luckily no shots fired. There’s millions of Boomers being programmed with discount Protocols via Qanon. We’re fucked, and more guns is not going to help.

Well I too would be alarmed if the people I kept claiming were "On the right side of history" kept attacking innocent civilians and starting fights in the street also you know looting and burning random places down.

Also people have opened fire into the crowd for various reasons. I mean one guy was killed by cops after he'd shot 3 people I think it was before.

As for Boomers being programmed by Qanon.......... you really need to stop reading those articles from weird unknown sites that pop up sometimes in Firefox article pocket.

This is all nerd bullshit.

Sounds like you're tetchy because you thought you have something there lol.

 

[Iron]

That's my new favorite combination of words to describe "logic".

ought to be in your description

 

[Revnak]

And also he did have a rifle and they did try to go for that.

Seen it with a handgun.

And it's easy to target people on their own if you were a person looking to start trouble.

And?

And shows he wan't there to kill people intentionally.

Armies bring medics too. So?

Those chose their cause and deemed it worth their life for whatever reason.

That’s severely distanced and almost certainly untrue. I imagine they’d prefer to not be dead.

So families starving to death, people who lost their sources of income and will struggle to live. People don't seem to realise that can be a longer slower more cruel death

A lost, almost certainly insured, business will not inevitably lead to a slow death. It’s actually very unlikely, and wouldn’t happen in any country with a mediocre safety net. Killing someone does tend to leave them dead though.

Yes I am to point out how it's not that great a meaphor.

Yeah that’s what my original response was you suck at rhetoric.

So you can't prove it was from the militia members and literally just found it on a random internet site and hoped I'd blindly accept it as proof of the rather specific thing you said......... Gotcha

Cool. I don’t care.

Well I too would be alarmed if the people I kept claiming were "On the right side of history" kept attacking innocent civilians and starting fights in the street also you know looting and burning random places down.

Cool. I’ve never said that and I don’t care. Dialectical Materialism isn’t Liberal Hegelian bullshit. You have no idea what either of those things are though so I don’t know why I’m bothering to bring them up.

Also people have opened fire into the crowd for various reasons. I mean one guy was killed by cops after he'd shot 3 people I think it was before.

Something I’m obviously opposed to.

As for Boomers being programmed by Qanon.......... you really need to stop reading those articles from weird unknown sites that pop up sometimes in Firefox article pocket.

Q is literally a racist website owner who appears to be obsessed with Turner Diaries shit, and thus with the Protocols. Many Q grifters have started directly spreading the Protocols, including the guy that almost spoke at the fucking RNC. You know literally nothing about the American Neo-Nazi movement and ought to stay in your fucking lane, lib.

Sounds like you're tetchy because you thought you have something there lol.

No I hate nerdery. Kick a football.

 

[Dwarvenhobble]

Seen it with a handgun.

Doesn't work as well grabbing for a handgun at close range.

And?

And it seems like some-one targeted him because of those actors

Armies bring medics too. So?

And so the medics generally aren't there to kill people.

That’s severely distanced and almost certainly untrue. I imagine they’d prefer to not be dead.

Sure they'd prefer not to be dead because they likely saw it going very different. The risk was still there and they took it. Are you saying said people were too stupid to understand the risk?

A lost, almost certainly insured, business will not inevitably lead to a slow death. It’s actually very unlikely, and wouldn’t happen in any country with a mediocre safety net. Killing someone does tend to leave them dead though.

Well Minneapolis business owners can't afford to rebuild and are even ending up in debt just from the cost of demolishing the ruins of their businesses even with insurance payout.

One example was $25,000 insurance payout.
Demolition charges were $140,000 alone

Yeah that’s what my original response was you suck at rhetoric.

yeh but your response was more faulty than the metaphor you were trying to debunk.

Cool. I don’t care.

Well yes I can see you don't care to actually prove your claims and are throwing whatever you can out in the hopes people blindly accept it as true.

Cool. I’ve never said that and I don’t care. Dialectical Materialism isn’t Liberal Hegelian bullshit. You have no idea what either of those things are though so I don’t know why I’m bothering to bring them up.

Cool, don't care.

Something I’m obviously opposed to.

But didn't seem to know about having happened

Q is literally a racist website owner who appears to be obsessed with Turner Diaries shit, and thus with the Protocols. Many Q grifters have started directly spreading the Protocols, including the guy that almost spoke at the fucking RNC. You know literally nothing about the American Neo-Nazi movement and ought to stay in your fucking lane, lib.

Really Tankie? Really?
Q started as some weird political shitposter type on 4chan at this stage it's likely just some troll who manages to end up on a hot streak of guesses sometimes.

No I hate nerdery. Kick a football.

yep definitely tetchy cause you lost.

 

[Revnak]

Doesn't work as well grabbing for a handgun at close range.

And?

And it seems like some-one targeted him because of those actors

So?

And so the medics generally aren't there to kill people.

Bit overly literal. I’m sure you got the point though and will engage with that point now that I make it clear I was speaking metaphorically but also I don’t care.

Sure they'd prefer not to be dead because they likely saw it going very different. The risk was still there and they took it. Are you saying said people were too stupid to understand the risk?

Im saying they didn’t think someone would actually fucking kill them because most people don’t presume others will kill them because most people don’t kill people this isn’t complicated. You assume what they were doing was necessarily dangerous to justify not caring. I don’t.

Well Minneapolis business owners can't afford to rebuild and are even ending up in debt just from the cost of demolishing the ruins of their businesses even with insurance payout.

One example was $25,000 insurance payout.
Demolition charges were $140,000 alone

Cool. They dead tho?

yeh but your response was more faulty than the metaphor you were trying to debunk.

Nah.

Well yes I can see you don't care to actually prove your claims and are throwing whatever you can out in the hopes people blindly accept it as true.

Or I’m tired of you.

But didn't seem to know about having happened

Might’ve, that’s broad enough to cover several cases but sounds like the shooting over a statue protest. Think it was in Texas?

Really Tankie? Really?
Q started as some weird political shitposter type on 4chan at this stage it's likely just some troll who manages to end up on a hot streak of guesses sometimes.

Did you just look up the first insult for Marxist and roll with it?
No, Q’s almost certainly Jim Watkins or someone close to him now, and he is a white supremacist trying to shove the Protocols down peoples’ throats, and other Q grifters are trying to spread the literal protocols as of late. Stay. In. Your. Lane.

 

[Iron]

I hate this so much, I can't begin to follow the conversation like this