Biden claims he will increase Police funding and it is infact Donald Trump who wants to defund the police also won't ban fracking

[lil devils x]

The "current plan" is to expand these very failed programs. We are, literally, talking about what happened in the past. No ambiguity, no room for argument, Biden wants to double down on what already backfired. End of story.


Nothing "different" is on the table in the first place, least of all out of Biden's camp. At all. Period, the end.


No, they don't. Not least when it was the capstone of a thirty-year legislative career of covert white supremacy that would continue to last a decade. Biden broke it in the first place, he can't be trusted to fix it, and he doesn't deserve the "opportunity". What he deserves is a cell in The Hague with the rest of these carceral state, human rights-abusing, cocksuckers.


Are either of us career politicians with a decades-long legacy of mass incarceration, human rights abuse, erosion of due process and equal protection, state surveillance, unlawful war, and economic and social inequity of Dickensian proportion that have literally cost millions around the globe their lives, basic human dignity, and livelihoods? no? Then you can take your false equivalencies and appeals to sympathy, wad 'em up real tight, and stick 'em way up in your butthole.

Where in the past did they expand social workers, psychiatrists and deescalation training as the core part of the program being supported here? You are going to have to show me exactly where they focused on these areas for it to be the same thing.

I get it. You're angry about the shit happening. I'm angry about the shit happening. We BOTH want this to be better and see that it should have happened a longtime ago already. What is your realistic solution to doing something about this right now? We only have two options here. We have to choose one way or the other, so which is i?

1) Trump who currently wants to use the military on the people and has literally told police to use excessive force. He is blocking investigations into police corruption and pardoning Joe Arpaio and literally promotes and encourages racial profiling and police shootings. Trump is treating protesters like terrorists rather than the actual right wing terrorists. His party is currently stacking the bench with judges who will always rule in favor of police. Trump and his party are currently having " back the blue rallies" in support of the police unions that are keeping bad cops on the job and preventing changes from being made. Trump supports "all lives matter." and wants BLM declared terrorists.

THIS IS OUR PRESENT:

Trump plans to use active-duty military forces to deal with growing protests

The president said the extra forces are needed to deal with increasingly violent actors in major cities.

www.militarytimes.com

Trump offers full-throated defense of police in executive action signing

President Donald Trump took his first concrete steps on Tuesday to address growing national outcry over police brutality even as he offered a staunch defense of law enforcement that left little question about his allegiances.

www.cnn.com

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-nation/wp/2017/07/28/trump-tells-police-not-to-worry-about-injuring-suspects-during-arrests/

Donald Trump defends racial profiling in wake of bombings | CNN Politics

Donald Trump on Monday reiterated his support for the controversial practice of racial profiling by police amid increasing threats to the homeland.

www.cnn.com

Trump says he will deploy military if state officials can't contain protest violence

The president said he was an "ally of all peaceful protesters" as police and the National Guard forced protesters away from the White House.

www.nbcnews.com

Trump to protesters: All lives matter

“You’re going to hear it once,” Trump said. “All lives matter.”

thehill.com

2) Biden who has a bad record in the past, but still not as bad as Trump is doing right now. He has a good plan on paper for the present but we don't know if he is sincere due to his past. He has no plans to use the military on the people. His current plans are in the video in the OP, so no need to link it again. He is the only chance progressives in congress have to pass any progressive legislation to make lasting changes right now.

So which choice are we supposed to make here?

 

[lil devils x]

For every post you argue with me lately, you have 2 or 3 with someone who doesn't like or believe in your solutions that actually solve problems. If anything, I'm drawing from your experience.

You mistake frustration with our current circumstance as unwillingness to want things fixed. That isn't the same thing at all. We all want this to be better, them being angry about our crappy options doesn't change that fact. I am angry about our current options too, but I am also realistic in what it will take to get it done. I wish we have better options than Trump or Biden right now. I am just going with the one who will get less people killed until we find someone better.

 

[tstorm823]

You mistake frustration with our current circumstance as unwillingness to want things fixed. That isn't the same thing at all. We all want this to be better, them being angry about our crappy options doesn't change that fact. I am angry about our current options too, but I am also realistic in what it will take to get it done. I wish we have better options than Trump or Biden right now. I am just going with the one who will get less people killed until we find someone better.

I'm just inclined to take people at their word. When people say they don't want police, I'm inclined to believe them. I don't constantly rag on communists for nothing, I'm just taking them at their word.

 

[lil devils x]

I'm just inclined to take people at their word. When people say they don't want police, I'm inclined to believe them. I don't constantly rag on communists for nothing, I'm just taking them at their word.

Who precisely says they don't want any type of police at all? Wanting to redefine the role of police doesn't mean they want total anarchy and allow rape, murder, robberies and assaults to run rampant with no one to stop them. LOL

People want the police to protect and serve and to stop killing the people they are supposed to protect. To stop targeting and harassing minorities and the poor and treat them as the citizens they are supposed to protect too. The militarization of the police, us vs them mentality and the police unions protecting bad cops is what needs to change, not get rid of the police all together. I have not seen anyone sincerely say they want no police at all here. They want to change what the police are doing and that is a common goal here.

 

[Eacaraxe]

Who precisely says they don't want any type of police at all?

Me, right here, I'm one.

People want the police to protect and serve and to stop killing the people they are supposed to protect.

News flash: they are doing their jobs, and with "great" aplomb and distinction. That's the problem.

Their job is to "protect" property and "serve" capitol. That's what you get from a publicly-funded paramilitary organization that has its origins in strike breakers, private security, slave patrols, and white supremacist street gangs. This is literally true in NYC's case, because after the Dead Rabbits riot and Police riots of 1857, the Bowery Boys ended up being the ones with the badges; it's part of why the damn Army had to be called in to suppress the New York draft riots.

You can put any delusion of cops being there to protect the public interest and general peace right out the fuckin' window. Because that isn't nor ever was their job to begin with.

To stop targeting and harassing minorities and the poor and treat them as the citizens they are supposed to protect too.

No they're not, targeting and harassing minorities and the poor is their job.

I have not seen anyone sincerely say they want no police at all here. They want to change what the police are doing and that is a common goal here.

You're not paying attention then.

 

[lil devils x]

Me, right here, I'm one.


News flash: they are doing their jobs, and with "great" aplomb and distinction. That's the problem.

Their job is to "protect" property and "serve" capitol. That's what you get from a publicly-funded paramilitary organization that has its origins in strike breakers, private security, slave patrols, and white supremacist street gangs. This is literally true in NYC's case, because after the Dead Rabbits riot and Police riots of 1857, the Bowery Boys ended up being the ones with the badges.

You can put any delusion of cops being there to protect the public interest and general peace right out the fuckin' window. Because that isn't nor ever was their job to begin with.


No they're not, targeting and harassing minorities and the poor is their job.


You're not paying attention then.

So without police as you suggest, who do we call when someone is trying to murder you? Someone breaking into your home? You do realize that isn't going to happen right? What is your actual realistic plan here, or do you not have a plan?

I still have a restraining order against the guy who is now out of prison who tried to kill me twice and wound up stabbing my neighbor when my neighbor caught him trying to break into my apartment to murder me in my sleep so I sorta want to make sure police can enforce that restraining order as needed... We do actually STILL need police for what they were supposed to do as well. I for one, would feel better knowing that the guy who tried to kill me still thinks the cops will arrest him if he comes anywhere near me. The idea that all the murderers out there all knowing there are no cops to stop them all at once pretty much seems like unleashing hell on earth here.

Oh and The guy who said he gets off on " watching the lights go out of a woman's eyes as he is choking her" that was posting photos of the street sign to the road in front of my house is out of jail now too. He actually went to jail for attacking another girl from a game we all played who was naive enough to meet up with him. So I really wouldn't want him knowing there are no cops to arrest him either.

You do realize this idea of no police is a terrifying one right?

*Mind again wanders again to thinking about another guy who held that teenager at gunpoint and made them beg for their life because their music was too loud and then that guy with that knife strapped to his hip that said " I'm gonna make you my *****"... and I really wish I was kidding about these people, but they are entirely too real.,, and so many more. Who is supposed to do something about all of these guys in the meantime?

None of these guys would have been arrested and in jail if it weren't for police actually arresting them, so who is going to arrest them and put them and the rest of the murderers in jail without police to do it?

 

[Eacaraxe]

So without police as you suggest, who do we call when someone is trying to murder you? Someone breaking into your home? You do realize that isn't going to happen right? What is your actual realistic plan here, or do you not have a plan?

This is literally why the Second Amendment exists, forget that insurrectionist nonsense. To ensure you, and other American citizens, can be adequately armed to protect themselves from dangers to themselves, their property, and their loved ones, in the absence of law enforcement or the infrastructure to support one.

...who is now out of prison...is out of jail now too. He actually went to jail...

Why, it's almost as if the contemporary CJ system doesn't actually keep violent criminals off the streets, but is rather designed to generate revenue for municipal and county governments through fines and citations, and to create a permanent indentured workforce of non-violent offenders. God forbid we ask sexual assault victims what they may think of the efficacy of the contemporary CJ system either.

Cops don't even have a duty to enforce DVRO's, by the way, and you have no legal recourse to compel or enjoin cops to enforce them. Not after Castle Rock v. Gonzalez.

...who tried to kill me twice and wound up stabbing my neighbor when my neighbor caught him trying to break into my apartment to murder me in my sleep so I sorta want to make sure police can enforce that restraining order as needed...

In other words, as in the case of 98% of all crime, cops weren't actually there when you needed them to prevent harm despite an established pattern of violent behavior that can and ought lead a reasonable individual to conclude intervention was necessary.

You do realize this idea of no police is a terrifying one right?

Well then get a fucking gun, join an SRA or a John Brown gun club, and put the range time in. Learn to protect yourself and not just hide behind badge-carrying neo-nazis.

*Mind again wanders again to thinking about another guy who held that teenager at gunpoint and made them beg for their life because their music was too loud and then that guy with that knife strapped to his hip that said " I'm gonna make you my *****"... and I really wish I was kidding about these people, but they are entirely too real.,, and so many more.

You're literally making the opposite of the case why cops should exist. Contemporary surveillance and carceral state, this shit doesn't just still happen, it happens more often and is more racialized and gendered than ever. Hell at this point if there is a correlation between policing and crime (there isn't, the correlation is between crime and income inequality), it's freaking positive.

None of these guys would have been arrested and in jail if it weren't for police actually arresting them, so who is going to arrest them and put them and the rest of the murderers in jail without police to do it?

You literally just admitted none of them are in jail anyways despite the presence and intervention of police.

 

[SupahEwok]

I'm just inclined to take people at their word.

Boy, for someone who likes to harp on others lying, you sure can belt out big ol' whoppers.

 

[SupahEwok]

Well then get a fucking gun, join an SRA or a John Brown gun club, and put the range time in.

The Houston branch doesn't seem to answer its social media (at least outside of Twitter, I refuse to make a Twitter account on principle).

 

[tstorm823]

Boy, for someone who likes to harp on others lying, you sure can belt out big ol' whoppers.

You once demanding I call you out isn't exactly a pattern of behavior.

 

[SupahEwok]

You once demanding I call you out isn't exactly a pattern of behavior.

Do I need to go through and flag every time you've called someone a liar? I'd rather not waste my evening.

 

[lil devils x]

This is literally why the Second Amendment exists, forget that insurrectionist nonsense. To ensure you, and other American citizens, can be adequately armed to protect themselves from dangers to themselves, their property, and their loved ones, in the absence of law enforcement or the infrastructure to support one.


Why, it's almost as if the contemporary CJ system doesn't actually keep violent criminals off the streets, but is rather designed to generate revenue for municipal and county governments through fines and citations, and to create a permanent indentured workforce of non-violent offenders. God forbid we ask sexual assault victims what they may think of the efficacy of the contemporary CJ system either.

Cops don't even have a duty to enforce DVRO's, by the way, and you have no legal recourse to compel or enjoin cops to enforce them. Not after Castle Rock v. Gonzalez.


In other words, as in the case of 98% of all crime, cops weren't actually there when you needed them to prevent harm despite an established pattern of violent behavior that can and ought lead a reasonable individual to conclude intervention was necessary.


Well then get a fucking gun, join an SRA or a John Brown gun club, and put the range time in. Learn to protect yourself and not just hide behind badge-carrying neo-nazis.


You're literally making the opposite of the case why cops should exist. Contemporary surveillance and carceral state, this shit doesn't just still happen, it happens more often and is more racialized and gendered than ever. Hell at this point if there is a correlation between policing and crime (there isn't, the correlation is between crime and income inequality), it's freaking positive.


You literally just admitted none of them are in jail anyways despite the presence and intervention of police.

Oh wow. Ok. Yea, We are all supposed to go all vigilante and wild west now? YIKES.
I have been shooting since I was 8 years old. Growing up I was required to defend our farm from wild dogs and coyotes. I shoot better then most, however, this is ludicrous, and you have to know it is ludicrous. I do hope you are kidding.

They are no longer in jail because they served their time just like tons of other criminals. They went to prison and served their time and are now free because that is how every single judicial system works in the world.

You do realize how insane this all sounds right? SO gangs will run the streets and turf wars over who gets to protect what? Massive cartels and militias form and run everything? I have no desire to live in this Mad Max nightmare scenario you suggest. I have seen the hood where the Zeta leader grew up and know how this ends. One of my cousins was shot changing a tire in his driveway, my other cousin went to prison for blowing up a gangs house.. we already know how this goes when the streets are wild because some 'hoods are so bad the cops don't even bother. That isn't a good thing, it is very very bad and very bloody and more like hell on earth. This sounds like when the Zetas took over 11 states in Mexico go read up on the mass graves.. No thanks. You are truly proposing madness and you have to realize none of this will happen, can happen or is ever going to happen, so again, I have to ask What is your REALISTIC solution here and not some insane delusional mad max cartel fantasy?

Oh and btw, there will ALWAYS be police, because when you get rid of the actual police, you will be policed by the cartels and militias who answer to no one but themselves and make the rules as they go along. Then you just get policed by the Zetas or some other cartel who wins the bloodbath. If you thought the police were oppressive, try living under Zeta rule.

 

[tstorm823]

Do I need to go through and flag every time you've called someone a liar? I'd rather not waste my evening.

If it helps you work through the angst you seem to be carrying...

 

[lil devils x]

Cops don't even have a duty to enforce DVRO's, by the way, and you have no legal recourse to compel or enjoin cops to enforce them. Not after Castle Rock v. Gonzalez.

There is no requirement of police to stop you from being killed either, but they still do. They enforce restraining orders all the time and not all restraining order are even domestic violence. Mine is actually a Permanent Restraining Order, it is renewed every two years atm. It was 5 but then they have just been re upping every 2 years now and will be for life. Police are not required to do a lot of things, they still do them though and I have enough cops I grew up with here to call if it becomes a problem of enforcement that would have no problem making sure it wasn't a problem.

 

[SupahEwok]

If it helps you work through the angst you seem to be carrying...

 

[Gordon_4]

.....better start working on a real Project Robocop because as far as I can see his first three Prime Directives are better mission statement than his real life counterparts have ever aspired to.

 

[Tsun Tzu]

The polls must have been sagging.

 

[Specter Von Baren]

So without police as you suggest, who do we call when someone is trying to murder you? Someone breaking into your home? You do realize that isn't going to happen right? What is your actual realistic plan here, or do you not have a plan?

I still have a restraining order against the guy who is now out of prison who tried to kill me twice and wound up stabbing my neighbor when my neighbor caught him trying to break into my apartment to murder me in my sleep so I sorta want to make sure police can enforce that restraining order as needed... We do actually STILL need police for what they were supposed to do as well. I for one, would feel better knowing that the guy who tried to kill me still thinks the cops will arrest him if he comes anywhere near me. The idea that all the murderers out there all knowing there are no cops to stop them all at once pretty much seems like unleashing hell on earth here.

Oh and The guy who said he gets off on " watching the lights go out of a woman's eyes as he is choking her" that was posting photos of the street sign to the road in front of my house is out of jail now too. He actually went to jail for attacking another girl from a game we all played who was naive enough to meet up with him. So I really wouldn't want him knowing there are no cops to arrest him either.

You do realize this idea of no police is a terrifying one right?

*Mind again wanders again to thinking about another guy who held that teenager at gunpoint and made them beg for their life because their music was too loud and then that guy with that knife strapped to his hip that said " I'm gonna make you my *****"... and I really wish I was kidding about these people, but they are entirely too real.,, and so many more. Who is supposed to do something about all of these guys in the meantime?

None of these guys would have been arrested and in jail if it weren't for police actually arresting them, so who is going to arrest them and put them and the rest of the murderers in jail without police to do it?

Are you sure you should be posting in the Current Events section right now then? You seem to be getting more upset from things lately so perhaps there's a bit too much on your plate at the moment? Might be a good time to take a step back and cool off rather than having heated discussions here that will be just one more irritant for you.

 

[Terminal Blue]

You are truly proposing madness and you have to realize none of this will happen, can happen or is ever going to happen, so again, I have to ask What is your REALISTIC solution here and not some insane delusional mad max cartel fantasy?

I think a more sensible way to look at this would be to break down the various functions of the police.

Because yes, if you abolished the police but left the rest of society exactly the same, you would have a few problems. Heck, even if you completely reorganised society from the ground up into some kind of post-state utopia, someone would still need to take the role of stopping antisocial behaviour or catching murderers. That's the socially necessary aspect of law enforcement. Even anarchists (social anarchists anyway) typically acknowledge that even if a society doesn't have laws, it does need rules, and that means someone enforcing those rules, and that person should probably be trained and equipped. They should be a professional whose job is to enforce the law (or at least the rules).

But that's not all that police are. It's not even most of what the police are.

Police are a special class of people who are granted widespread powers and privileges by the state. They act as agents of the state and embody its authority in order to enforce its laws. When a police officer puts on the uniform or shows their badge, they become a representative of the state and, as such, they have enormous power and license. If a uniformed police officer orders you to do something, even if on paper they don't have the legal authority to order you to do that, you still have to obey them on penalty of violence. If police use violence towards you or detain you, even if they are violating your rights, you are not allowed to resist. If police shoot you while wearing the uniform, even if they were clearly and obviously in the wrong or were negligent, they don't get arrested. The police do not answer to you, they have no obligations or responsibilities towards you, only towards the state. The police exist, ultimately, to protect the state and its interests, including if necessary protecting it from you. If in the process they happen to protect you, that's nice, but it's not why they exist.

Add to this, a lot of the work of police is essentially cleaning up the mess that the government can't or won't deal with. The government won't take action to address homelessness, but they will send the police to kick homeless people out of public areas (and steal their signs to make "homelessness quilts" which they openly display on social media). The government won't provide more addiction support services, but they will send police to raid the homes of addicts. The government won't provide more mental health or care services, but they will send police to shoot a 13 year old autistic boy who is freaking out. None of this is protecting people from mad max villains.

Abolishing the police doesn't have to mean that you, ordinary untrained citizen with a gun, have to bear the full burden of protecting society from murderers. I can't speak for Eacaraxe, maybe that is genuinely what they were going for. But I think is a more productive way of thinking about it is to imagine what would happen if the person whose job is to protect you from being murdered is not a special, empowered agent of a distant government, but is just an ordinary citizen like you, who doesn't have any special authority beyond what you and the community they serve choose to give them and who, even when they use that authority, remains accountable to their fellow citizens through civilian oversight.

And the best part is, you don't even have to be an anarchist to endorse that. Making police more accountable to ordinary citizens is totally doable without even needing radical change to the rest of society.

 

[Eacaraxe]

...some insane delusional mad max cartel fantasy...

I mean, it's ironic you say this.







Pretty obvious to me who the "cartel" already is in this equation.

Because obviously there can be no middle ground, either we must live in a full-on police state or, as you put it, a "Mad Max cartel" hellscape. Nope, no such a thing as just peacefully minding your own business, defending you and yours.

They are no longer in jail because they served their time just like tons of other criminals. They went to prison and served their time and are now free because that is how every single judicial system works in the world.

No, we're pretty much the only country in the developed world that jails people based in accordance to the cost of manufacturing consent for compulsory labor extraction, not to fit the crime, nor rehabilitate, nor separate violent offenders from the general population, while simultaneously all but guaranteeing convicts are incapable of being gainfully employed nor have political enfranchisement or upward mobility of any sort. But God forbid we ask ourselves why domestic recidivism rates are so high. Or why violent cirme rates in the US are so high and continue increasing.

...Mexican cartels...

...cut the politicians a better deal than Coca-Cola and Chase Manhattan in the wake of post-NAFTA economic and civil unrest, that's what happened. But if you want to have a conversation about Mexican economic development, key economic performance indicators, human development and standard of living indices from Salinas to Calderon, and from Nieto to now, I'd love to have that fuckin' conversation. Because if anything, cartels torturing and murdering Mexican politicians across the whole-ass country has been the biggest fuckin' boon to the Mexican economy since the end of World War II. Because for the very first time since the Latin-American debt crisis, they were accountable to someone besides some suit-clad douchebag Manhattan gringo whose only concern was maximal ROI from Mexican wealth extraction and domestic wage suppression via induced economic refugee crises.