Translation: "Fuck your rights. This is America, and we can hurt whoever the fuck we please for whatever reason we please."
Translation: "White power!"
Whistleblowing Nurse: ICE may be doing an ethnic cleansing via sterilization
- Thread starter Revnak
- Start date
Gorfias: Don't break the law and it won't happen.
Buyetyen: You're saying people can hurt whoever they want!?
Me: No... he's saying don't break the law and you won't be punished for breaking the law.
No, he's saying it's okay to violate the human rights of migrants if they don't consent to our immigration process, which is designed specifically to discourage them from wanting to live here. Because that's what he's defending: the disproportionate punitive actions against them that are considered human rights violations. "Law and order" is just the excuse not to give a shit.
If you are seriously concerned with child abuse/trafficking, you should also be concerned about the institution under which those occured. Which coincidentally happens to also be the one accused of these forced sterilizations.
Show me an excerpt from american legal system, or a precedent, that treats forced sterilization as a viable punishment for illegaly crossing border.
That's not what we were talking about though. The conversation had gone into the general policies of the treatment of illegal immigrants that are actual laws.
The spectre of genocide still hangs over the topic. And if someone is going to make an excuse not to give a shit about one abuse of power, they won't stop there. Not giving a shit and making excuses for it is easy. That's why so many people do it.
That's what gorfias was talking about, though. "If they don't want to get in trouble, they shouldn't break laws." Which laws being breaked warrant a sterilization(i heard some countries do that repeat sex offenders, but those women broke a different law)?
I am calling BS on systemic forced sterilization of those violating US immigration law. I don't think it is happening. I am reading of a few anecdotes. An individual may have violated US law and deserves criminal and civil sanctions if true.
Can we agree that those that break a law can expect to be punished (punishment defined as a justified cruelty). To avoid a justified cruelty, don't break the law?
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USA
This actually suggest that if they were sent there unofficially and had illegal operations performed, this very well could be a systemic issue if that is just how they go about doing this systemically to attempt to not draw attention to the matter. It takes more than one specific person to be involved to be able to do this officially or unofficially.
They also could have intentionally destroyed the documents or never created the entry in the first place, or used the same charts for every woman they sent, only not adding the information about the actual hysterectomies being performed, like one of the women stated that the nurse was using records that did not belong to her and they said there was no documentation of any procedure being performed for either treatment of her condition she was officially diagnosed with or a hysterotomy in her chart , they could have just been using false documents, " pretending" that it was the same patient over and over again during a set time frame, without ever creating or adding the actual documentation of the procedure to the file. Thus if the facility ever checked to see " which patient" they were operating on that day, they would just pull up the same chart and continue to use that same patients chart until someone actually asked or checked, and then only switching charts at that point that patients name may be recognized by the same person checking. The racist way they often treat immigrants is " all Mexican names look/ sound the same so no one will notice they are different people anyways" They can all be " mrs/ms Garcia, Rodriguez, Gonzalez, Lopez, Moralas.. ect and they would never notice a difference.
No matter how you attempt to spin this, multiple people necessarily had to be involved. There is no way to know how widespread this was until you track down and speak to every woman that has been in these facilities and interview them and then run tests on them and compare what their charts say vs what their test result show was actually done to their bodies. Attempting to use any of this initial data as evidence to determine how widespread this was is speculative at best as you wouldn't expect them to do so without extensive research, which they have yet had time to do.
If you mean morally justified, then no, we can't agree. The law isn't always right. And when the law is wrong, punishments doled out for its infraction are morally unjustified.
To paraphrase you...."when the law is right, punishments doled out for its infraction and are not excessive and unusual are morally justified." Correct? One who breaks a good law should expect just punishment. Correct?
I call BS on you speculating when we have yet to have a formal investigation. It is utterly reprehensible for you to think this is " justified cruelty" for LEGALLY seeking asylum in the US or even attempting to immigrate to the US, as many of your ancestors likely did as well. It is not illegal for you to cross the border anywhere to claim asylum. Trump admin trying to change the law did not actually change the law, as Trump cannot create or change laws, that is the duty of congress. Congress has not changed this.
To be clear: seeking asylum at the border is not illegal, but turning asylum seekers away is illegal.
https://thehill.com/opinion/immigra...r-seeking-asylum-at-the-border-is-not-illegal
"Congress, as one of the three coequal branches of government, is ascribed significant powers by the Constitution. All legislative power in the government is vested in Congress, meaning that it is the only part of the government that can make new laws or change existing laws. Executive Branch agencies issue regulations with the full force of law, but these are only under the authority of laws enacted by Congress. The President may veto bills Congress passes, but Congress may also override a veto by a two-thirds vote in both the Senate and the House of Representatives. "
The Legislative Branch | The White House
Established by Article I of the Constitution, the Legislative Branch consists of the House of Representatives and the Senate, which together form the Unite
These laws have not been changed and are UNABLE to be changed by executive order. The constitution has ascribed all legislative power to Congress, not the President.
So the US government is currently in violation of the law, not the asylum seekers. Should that mean we can perform unethical and in no way ever excusable operations on them without their consent? of course not, not only is that a violation of their constitutional rights, constitutional rights that ALSO apply to anyone on US soil, which these woman are also on US soil, but also human rights. Human rights that we recognize to exist in respect for human decency otherwise we are no better than Serial killers, rapist, abusers that we have shown committed a grave harm to society itself. There can be no justification to performing surgery on these women or anyone else for that matter against their will. There is nothing " justified" in this and it is abhorrent that you would even attempt to suggest there was. They no more deserved to have this happen than if they were to come into you and your families homes and do so to everyone member of your family. This is just as wrong, and if you fail to see that, that is on you to figure out, as others see it that way for good reason.
Of course no one is going to agree with this disgusting twisted application of "injustice" as there can never be justice in doing something like this to someone in the first place.
Trump's New Asylum Rule Violates Law According to Attorneys
Immigration attorneys and experts say the rule is a violation of domestic and international asylum laws.
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There is not nor will there ever be a justification for performing surgery on people against their will. The US is breaking their own laws, so does that mean we should do this to them as well?
1) This is not a legal punishment for breaking the law.
2)Those carrying out these things are in violation of US law.
3) Trump is violating the law by defying court orders, should we then do this to him and anyone who follows his orders?
4) Only Congress can create and alter the laws according to the constitution, thus it cannot be altered by executive order.
5)Nowhere in our laws does it sanction the use of surgery as a form of punishment, thus anyone doing such is in violation of the law.
Forced sterilization is literally a form of genocide. Everyone in this topic who tried to make an excuse for this shit has endorsed genocide.
Congratulations to @gorfias and good luck trying to claim that you're not a racist and a bigot after endorsing genocide.
Also reported for endorsing genocide.
Yeah, no, they infringe on no human right of mine entering nor those entering legally.
Ahead of? When did this become a competition here? "Better remove their kids or we're disregarding people coming here legally!" Like what?
Maybe you should read the history on forced sterilization. Forced sterilization has been deemed a violation of human rights as well as recognized as a form of genocide for good reason.
Compulsory sterilization - Wikipedia
en.wikipedia.org
'Forced Sterilization Is Genocide': Rights Groups Condemn ICE Amid Whistleblower's Allegations of Unwarranted Hysterectomies
The complaint alleges numerous health and safety violations in regards to Covid-19 in addition a disturbing number of procedures performed on detained women.
www.commondreams.org
Let's fix this a bit
People: These things seem inhumane
Gorfias: Don't break the law and it won't happen.
Buyetyen: You're saying people can hurt whoever they want!?
Specter: Let me misrepresent the issue people have with Gorfias saying that in this context
Lil: The US is the one breaking the law here, does that mean we should do this to those officials who are ordering people to break US law here in the first place?
( of course not because that was BS the first time it was said and everyone, including Gorfias knows that)
Performing surgery on anyone is breaking the law, therefore it cannot be " justified" in any way and anyone who did so, or was involved with causing it to happen would then be a criminal.