Trump wants 'Patriotic Education'.

ObsidianJones

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you'll see why I quoted you in this with time.
I think this discussion is leading to a bigger problem with big government in general. The bigger they are, the more say they have in matters you may consider personal. I don't think the Fed will try to impose anything on local schools by force. They'll just withhold funds you already paid into that the school needs.

So now, we have schools that respond oddly to students displaying a "blue lives matter" flag on the one hand, and an erasure of US sins on the other.
Big Government aint Burger King. You can't have it your way.
Gorfias coming in hot with this. No, you can not have it your way in terms of facts of the matter.

This is the same bullshit they were tried to pull with the Holocaust, but too many granddads fought and/or died in WWII to allow it to happen. WWII and winning the war was something that America still feels proud of today. The great liberators who sent millions of their sons and blood to make sure the evil of the Nazis were halted. I remember being taught that in school. And I remembered being so proud to be American.

But then you find out the truth. That Americans were so divided that there wouldn't have even been an American aspect to the war if it wasn't for Pearl Harbor. I even remember learning about that in college and having three other students not being able to accept that because of what their grandfathers did and how if that were true, everyone would have told them that before.

Here's the Eventual End Game.

"Africans were indentured servants/immigrants who were provided food and housing for their work on the land".

That sounds fine. But then that leads to questions. How come the blacks say there were stolen from their land? My text book just told me they came willingly. My teacher taught me that too. Who do I listen to? A lot of people my family trusts tells me that you can't believe Blacks because they are lazy and they lie about their condition so they don't have to do as much work as we do. And again, they couldn't teach me a lie. So I guess I don't trust black people.

Point of fact, they were never called 'indentured servants or immigrants. What did the people of that time call them?






Ahh, yes. Good reminder.

If one get to choose the past, then one can dictate the present. Blacks go from a people sold into bondage, mistreated, raped, culture destroyed, treated like subhuman filth, hung and killed for no reason sometimes, families broken apart, robbed of education or an ability to improve on one's standing save for an ordeal that might mean their death... to a people who came here on a contract and seemingly didn't better themselves afterwards.

No person on this planet gets to have a personal opinion about that. That is fact. That is what was done to my people. And to not want to accept that is unacceptable. To not want to teach that because it makes you feel some sort of way about your own roots denies and erodes my roots. My identity and my lot of life.

And yes, Hawki. This is the only reason why I added you into this post. This is why identity politics is a thing. The past is literally being re-wrote in efforts to make one side feel better, and negate any wrong done to the other.

You keep saying you don't have a dog in the fight, but if you are tired of identity politics, you better find one. Because all this does is draw the lines in deeper and make people grab more weapons because they are being attacked. You do not tell the oppressed to relax and stop worrying about it, you tell those in charge to quit it so everyone can live their own damn lives.
 

gorfias

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Gorfias coming in hot with this. No, you can not have it your way in terms of facts of the matter.

This is the same bullshit they were tried to pull with the Holocaust, but too many granddads fought and/or died in WWII to allow it to happen. WWII and winning the war was something that America still feels proud of today. The great liberators who sent millions of their sons and blood to make sure the evil of the Nazis were halted. I remember being taught that in school. And I remembered being so proud to be American.

But then you find out the truth. That Americans were so divided that there wouldn't have even been an American aspect to the war if it wasn't for Pearl Harbor. I even remember learning about that in college and having three other students not being able to accept that because of what their grandfathers did and how if that were true, everyone would have told them that before.

Here's the Eventual End Game.

"Africans were indentured servants/immigrants who were provided food and housing for their work on the land".

That sounds fine. But then that leads to questions. How come the blacks say there were stolen from their land? My text book just told me they came willingly. My teacher taught me that too. Who do I listen to? A lot of people my family trusts tells me that you can't believe Blacks because they are lazy and they lie about their condition so they don't have to do as much work as we do. And again, they couldn't teach me a lie. So I guess I don't trust black people.

Point of fact, they were never called 'indentured servants or immigrants. What did the people of that time call them?






Ahh, yes. Good reminder.

If one get to choose the past, then one can dictate the present. Blacks go from a people sold into bondage, mistreated, raped, culture destroyed, treated like subhuman filth, hung and killed for no reason sometimes, families broken apart, robbed of education or an ability to improve on one's standing save for an ordeal that might mean their death... to a people who came here on a contract and seemingly didn't better themselves afterwards.

No person on this planet gets to have a personal opinion about that. That is fact. That is what was done to my people. And to not want to accept that is unacceptable. To not want to teach that because it makes you feel some sort of way about your own roots denies and erodes my roots. My identity and my lot of life.

And yes, Hawki. This is the only reason why I added you into this post. This is why identity politics is a thing. The past is literally being re-wrote in efforts to make one side feel better, and negate any wrong done to the other.

You keep saying you don't have a dog in the fight, but if you are tired of identity politics, you better find one. Because all this does is draw the lines in deeper and make people grab more weapons because they are being attacked. You do not tell the oppressed to relax and stop worrying about it, you tell those in charge to quit it so everyone can live their own damn lives.
What would you think would give you more power to shape what is taught in schools?
1) Schools are a local issue. The vast majority of funds and power are local.
2) Schools are highly Federalized.
In 1) I concede a con to this is, some ass hat may teach young people that Black people liked being slaves. But at least you have the right to move to a different locality or have more power to get said ass hat fired.
In 2) You can demand that curricula be fair, inclusive. Teach the young to be patriotic and appreciate this great nation, but know of and learn of its past sins as well. You will be limited in what you can do to get an abuser of the system fired. You cannot move away from loons if they take over. Heck, if Trump had his way, maybe everyone has to learn an ass hats teachings (I doubt it but I'm trying to illustrate a point: Federalize it and you get one size fits all, like it or not).
I want government to be good, just but restrained. I'm told this is like wanting a cat that barks.
 

Mister Mumbler

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...So, a bit off-topic here, but anyone else remember four years ago or so when Saelune was going on about how bad it was going to get? Honestly at the time I thought she was grossly exaggerating as this was around the time I fell out with the conservative side of things with their constant "Obama is literally satan!" nonsense, but goddamn if she turned out to be right.

Saelune, where ever you are, I just want to say sorry for not believing you, you were right.
 

ObsidianJones

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What would you think would give you more power to shape what is taught in schools?
1) Schools are a local issue. The vast majority of funds and power are local.
2) Schools are highly Federalized.
In 1) I concede a con to this is, some ass hat may teach young people that Black people liked being slaves. But at least you have the right to move to a different locality or have more power to get said ass hat fired.
In 2) You can demand that curricula be fair, inclusive. Teach the young to be patriotic and appreciate this great nation, but know of and learn of its past sins as well. You will be limited in what you can do to get an abuser of the system fired. You cannot move away from loons if they take over. Heck, if Trump had his way, maybe everyone has to learn an ass hats teachings (I doubt it but I'm trying to illustrate a point: Federalize it and you get one size fits all, like it or not).
I want government to be good, just but restrained. I'm told this is like wanting a cat that barks.
Both can't work unless you get rid of people's biases.

For 1.), Get fired? For not sexually abusing a child? Not likely.

And then, we have the 'you have the freedom to move to another district' argument. And that never held up water. If people were poor and were free to move in to a Rich area, do you think they would not?

Of course they would. But it takes money to move to a rich area. Money that the Middle Class doesn't have any more. Let alone the poor.

Not to mention you have people voting on policies and representative government based on lies. It's one thing if you're taught that all humans are the same species, but due to racism you don't believe it. It's another thing that you're taught that Whites and Blacks are different animals that happen to look superficially similar but are not.

Now, let's add it up.

Firing is such an impossibility I don't think we should address it more. But if you do, please feel free to bring it up again. But 'Free to move' actually means less opposition to falsehoods. Towns become echo chambers. Hate begins to fester. And then very soon, areas become unhospitable to people who do not look like them.

I was once challenged with the idea with the idea that BLM's message was harmful and misleading. Now, The mindset of being able to move while idiotic notions are being pushed (such as the softening of America and Slavery) is odious. Because it solves nothing, and removes obstacles of pushing more agenda.

2.) What I demand are the facts. Slavery happened, Suffrage needed to happen, Trial of Tears happened. Manhattan was bought without properly explaining to the Native Americans what was transpiring, and they were just being nice. America was built on sham after sham after sham. It can only be great if we make it great now. It never was. It was just a sweet deal for some.

The fact that people try their best to hide that shows how not great this nation is. The fact that we as a nation even have to have discussions about teaching nothing but the truth of the matter is... well, frankly mind boggling to me.
 
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Gergar12

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I don't agree with everything the 1619 project does, but part of the reason China needs to be hawkish right now is their patriotic education. Their textbooks brainwash their students to be warmongers.

We should be teaching critical thinking, not nationalistic education that will make America, in the long run, weaker, more prone to policy blunders(Like Iraq, and don't ask don't tell), and more jingoistic.

This is coming from someone who used to be a jingoist and an American nationalist. The only reason I am not is because of Jon Stewart, Back then Steven Colbert. ( current Stephen Colbert is a bag of dildos) And possibly a liberal English teacher who told me to volunteer for the Hillary campaign which I was too young to do, but may or may not have voted for her, don't remember.

The problem with 1619 I have is that some historians do question it. It does push the Overton window to the left but could do so at the expense of the truth.

Texas Republican Party

"Knowledge-Based Education – We oppose the teaching of Higher Order Thinking Skills (HOTS) (values clarification), critical thinking skills and similar programs that are simply a relabeling of Outcome-Based Education (OBE) (mastery learning) which focus on behavior modification and have the purpose of challenging the student’s fixed beliefs and undermining parental authority.
"
 

Elijin

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The idea of teaching children to be patriotic feels off to me.

Patriotism should be something an adult is inspired to by their nation and fellow countrymen, not a taught response.
 

gorfias

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Both can't work unless you get rid of people's biases.

For 1.), Get fired? For not sexually abusing a child? Not likely.

And then, we have the 'you have the freedom to move to another district' argument. And that never held up water. If people were poor and were free to move in to a Rich area, do you think they would not?

Of course they would. But it takes money to move to a rich area. Money that the Middle Class doesn't have any more. Let alone the poor.

Not to mention you have people voting on policies and representative government based on lies. It's one thing if you're taught that all humans are the same species, but due to racism you don't believe it. It's another thing that you're taught that Whites and Blacks are different animals that happen to look superficially similar but are not.

Now, let's add it up.

Firing is such an impossibility I don't think we should address it more. But if you do, please feel free to bring it up again. But 'Free to move' actually means less opposition to falsehoods. Towns become echo chambers. Hate begins to fester. And then very soon, areas become unhospitable to people who do not look like them.

I was once challenged with the idea with the idea that BLM's message was harmful and misleading. Now, The mindset of being able to move while idiotic notions are being pushed (such as the softening of America and Slavery) is odious. Because it solves nothing, and removes obstacles of pushing more agenda.

2.) What I demand are the facts. Slavery happened, Suffrage needed to happen, Trial of Tears happened. Manhattan was bought without properly explaining to the Native Americans what was transpiring, and they were just being nice. America was built on sham after sham after sham. It can only be great if we make it great now. It never was. It was just a sweet deal for some.

The fact that people try their best to hide that shows how not great this nation is. The fact that we as a nation even have to have discussions about teaching nothing but the truth of the matter is... well, frankly mind boggling to me.
I like some of what you write, particularly that the freedom to move creates the danger that those left behind get to form an echo chamber of hate.

It is extremely hard to fire a unionized government employee. But it is a racket. Bad teachers are shuffled around rather than let go. Federalizing education will only make this more difficult.

I agree that educating our young about the nation's sins is vital to understanding who we are and where we came from and how to avoid mistakes of the past.

But you also write America was never great.

This suggests to me that you need much more saturation education in why others would state that is not the case.
I recently saw the musical "Hamilton" and was amazed. I am ashamed to admit all I knew of him was that he was killed in a duel. And that was... dooohhh... because of the Star Trek episode "Squire of Gothos". Much of the show amazed me due to it reminding me of things I knew. That our Founding Fathers were pretty sharp people. That they created a radical state where one could legally say what they wanted. Even against the state. That is radical. I promise you, there are many who do not want people to have these rights anymore. Their project was far from a certainty. Until the War of 1812, England acted like the US hadn't even won.... The English just didn't feel like continuing to fight for a while. We were that out matched. Dang. Now I gotta look up more on 1812 because the US wouldn't be a global power for another 100 years so I'm not sure how we got out of that one.
Global history is full of incredible savagery. But in the USA we have a lot of exceptional stuff we dare not lose. And we didn't get here from nowhere. And that's something I think is lacking in our current educational environment. I just really hope I can acquire that cat that barks because it may take some Federal elbow grease to make it happen.
 

dreng3

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Texas Republican Party

"Knowledge-Based Education – We oppose the teaching of Higher Order Thinking Skills (HOTS) (values clarification), critical thinking skills and similar programs that are simply a relabeling of Outcome-Based Education (OBE) (mastery learning) which focus on behavior modification and have the purpose of challenging the student’s fixed beliefs and undermining parental authority.
"
That is a horrifying statement, this is basically throwing away thousands of years of philosophy and all the educational theory of the modern age in favour of indoctrination and obeying your elders.
 
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TheMysteriousGX

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But you also write America was never great.

This suggests to me that you need much more saturation education in why others would state that is not the case.
I recently saw the musical "Hamilton" and was amazed. I am ashamed to admit all I knew of him was that he was killed in a duel. And that was... dooohhh... because of the Star Trek episode "Squire of Gothos". Much of the show amazed me due to it reminding me of things I knew. That our Founding Fathers were pretty sharp people. That they created a radical state where one could legally say what they wanted. Even against the state. That is radical. I promise you, there are many who do not want people to have these rights anymore.
John Adams, second president ever, passed the Sedition Act, which criminalized making "false statements" critical of the government.

America was never great. However, it's ideals are good, and should be fought for. Just don't pretend we've ever held to them.
 

Hawki

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And yes, Hawki. This is the only reason why I added you into this post. This is why identity politics is a thing. The past is literally being re-wrote in efforts to make one side feel better, and negate any wrong done to the other.

You keep saying you don't have a dog in the fight, but if you are tired of identity politics, you better find one. Because all this does is draw the lines in deeper and make people grab more weapons because they are being attacked. You do not tell the oppressed to relax and stop worrying about it, you tell those in charge to quit it so everyone can live their own damn lives.
What I do or say won't have much relevance to the United States, so in the 'fight' between 1619 and 1776, I don't really have a dog. Not to the extent that those living inside the country do. At best, I'm the guy who can look at the pet store window, at two dogs growling at each other, deciding I want little to do with either, even if one of those dogs is much, MUCH worse than the other.

And I still have little want or need for identity politics, because I don't see that leading anywhere good. I could say the US is an example of this, but if you want to see how bad things can get, look at Lebanon, where identity politics (in its case, religious sectarianism) was so extreme that different wings of government were reserved entirely for certain sects. Hence the corruption, hence why a huge part of Beiruit went kapow, hence why the state is on the verge of collapse.
 

gorfias

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John Adams, second president ever, passed the Sedition Act, which criminalized making "false statements" critical of the government.

America was never great. However, it's ideals are good, and should be fought for. Just don't pretend we've ever held to them.
Never? The end of Slavery, the civil rights movements for women, gay people and Black people? You think that could have happened in 19th Century France? Today's China? Pol Pot's Cambodia? Not always living up to our ideals does not detract from our achievements. The US has a lot of natural resources but on a per capita basis, I don't think we are special. Our nation prospers because of our institutions and human capital. And people from around the world would love to come live here. Uzbekistan? Not so much.
 
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Secondhand Revenant

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Never? The end of Slavery, the civil rights movements for women, gay people and Black people? You think that could have happened in 19th Century France? Today's China? Pol Pot's Cambodia? Not always living up to our ideals does not detract from our achievements. The US has a lot of natural resources but on a per capita basis, I don't think we are special. Our nation prospers because of our institutions and human capital. And people from around the world would love to come live here. Uzbekistan? Not so much.
Perhaps some people don't decide greatness by comparing ourselves to bad things.
 
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Revnak

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Never? The end of Slavery, the civil rights movements for women, gay people and Black people? You think that could have happened in 19th Century France? Today's China? Pol Pot's Cambodia? Not always living up to our ideals does not detract from our achievements. The US has a lot of natural resources but on a per capita basis, I don't think we are special. Our nation prospers because of our institutions and human capital. And people from around the world would love to come live here. Uzbekistan? Not so much.
I would like to go to Uzbekistan.
 
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Avnger

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Never? The end of Slavery, the civil rights movements for women, gay people and Black people?
Imagine thinking that acknowledging the basic human rights of people who aren't straight, cis, white, and male is an "achievement" especially after decades of abuse, slavery, and worse. Keep in mind that those people are still fighting currently to actually have those rights respected...

Somehow you just continue to double down on your inability to understand others, particularly anyone who isn't straight, cis, white, and male...
 
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gorfias

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Imagine thinking that acknowledging the basic human rights of people who aren't straight, cis, white, and male is an "achievement" especially after decades of abuse, slavery, and worse. Keep in mind that those people are still fighting to actually have those rights respected decades later...
Worst torture I ever heard of. They put you in something like a bath tub and seal you up in it with only your neck and head sticking out. They force feed you so you defecate in the tub. Over days (I think 17 the record) your own body breaks itself down until your enzimes and maggots eat you alive. 17 days.
I bring this up to remind you of the savagery of human history.
Creating a civilization that gives a flying crap about human rights is huge. It was never guaranteed. And we can lose it if you don't appreciate it.
 
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Mister Mumbler

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Never. As much as I love this country, there has never been a point in the history of this country you could describe as being "great" without qualifying it:

Our founding to mid 1800's: slavery.
1850's to 1900: genocide of the native Americans.
1900-1940: segregation, violent suppression of labor protests, and lynchings.
1945-1991: the cold war and all of the shit we pulled during it (for a fun read, check out the early history of South Korea and the entirety of South Vietnam's short history).

Shit, even our greatest accomplishments have these same qualifiers on them:
Civil rights came about after 100 years of segregation and Jim Crow, hell, we were war profiteers at the beginning of both world wars, and only chose a side when circumstances forced us to (Mexico letter in WWI, and the blockade of Germany in WWII).

The only thing that the idea that America is great does is that it makes us complacent to actually achieving greatness.
 

gorfias

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Never. As much as I love this country, there has never been a point in the history of this country you could describe as being "great" without qualifying it:

Our founding to mid 1800's: slavery.
1850's to 1900: genocide of the native Americans.
1900-1940: segregation, violent suppression of labor protests, and lynchings.
1945-1991: the cold war and all of the shit we pulled during it (for a fun read, check out the early history of South Korea and the entirety of South Vietnam's short history).

Shit, even our greatest accomplishments have these same qualifiers on them:
Civil rights came about after 100 years of segregation and Jim Crow, hell, we were war profiteers at the beginning of both world wars, and only chose a side when circumstances forced us to (Mexico letter in WWI, and the blockade of Germany in WWII).

The only thing that the idea that America is great does is that it makes us complacent to actually achieving greatness.
Radical over simplification of US history though I concede how much history can we cover in a discussion thread. I wrote above about the horrors of human history. We were never guaranteed to have a nation that even pretends to care about human rights. I worry if you cannot appreciate that, you will lose it.
 
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Mister Mumbler

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Radical over simplification of US history
I think the real radical simplification of our history is taking a look at our history and then putting a big rubber "great" stamp on it. Like, you think if we don't appreciate our country then human rights will get washed away, but somehow air brushing out of our history all the times human rights took a back seat (if they even got brought along in the first place) strengthens them?
 

gorfias

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I think the real radical simplification of our history is taking a look at our history and then putting a big rubber "great" stamp on it. Like, you think if we don't appreciate our country then human rights will get washed away, but somehow air brushing out of our history all the times human rights took a back seat (if they even got brought along in the first place) strengthens them?
I've written multiple times that we need to educate our young about this nations sins. But on balance, if they are teaching our kids to be ashamed of their country?? Great way to end up with a sovereign who would shove me into an oven if he thought it convenient to do so.
 
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Revnak

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Worst torture I ever heard of. They put you in something like a bath tub and seal you up in it with only your neck and head sticking out. They force feed you so you defecate in the tub. Over days (I think 17 the record) your own body breaks itself down until your enzimes and maggots eat you alive. 17 days.
I bring this up to remind you of the savagery of human history.
Creating a civilization that gives a flying crap about human rights is huge. It was never guaranteed. And we can lose it if you don't appreciate it.
I too read the edgy version of various children’s encyclopedias.
 
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