Trump Town Hall Disaster
- Thread starter lil devils x
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USA
There isn't an unironic first step to revolution and installing a dictatorship in the US. Like I said these guys trying to run in giant Undies are less ridiculous than this plan:
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At least someone in that scenario is having fun.There isn't an unironic first step to revolution and installing a dictatorship in the US. Like I said these guys trying to run in giant Undies are less ridiculous than this plan:
You fundamentally misunderstand communist philosophy. Classed based societies are already, functionally, bourgeoisie dictatorships. What Marx and Engals proposed was a dictatorship of the proletariat, which is morally the same. The proletariat dictatorship would proceed to destroy resistance to the new form of society, and gradually dismantly the social and economic strctures that underpinned capitalism. The fundamental difference is that the key goal of this new form of government is that it would ultimately make itself obsolete. Once a classless communist society was formed, it would dismantle itself.
Either way you drown. A course of action is only as good as its outcome. The outcome you are all proposing is that corporate billionaires continue to siphon of trillions of dollars from the working class for their own benefit, enjoy bailouts when then destroy the economy, and then burn the planet to the ground. Morally, I don't see the people who support this structure as being any better then the billionaires themselves.
I mean, the democrats were the ones in charge when the 2008 housing crisis occurred. I don't blame them for its occurrence, but I absolutely blame them for not holding wall street accountable and sending people to prison. You all may as well be republicans.
Not if the transition is gradual and well organized. The main reason so many communist and anarchic projects failed in the past was because the U.S. imperialists sabotaged the project, or because the leaders weren't real communists in the first place, and simply wanted to be members of the new bourgeoisie.
I " Fundamentally misunderstand communist philosophy" When I actually come from one of those anarcho communist cultures that US imperialists sabotaged you are talking about. The crisis actually occurred under Bush. I lost like 22k in one day. Obama was just expected to walk in and fix it while it was already crumbling in all directions. Obama had to scrap his own agenda due to the mess Bush handed him.
I am telling you that the Us has technologically advanced to the point that your ideas will not work the way you intend them to. The American people themselves too, are not in a place to shift to a communistic society, hell they are not even ready to shift to the European idea of "we take care of our people". The American people are still too busy stomping each other into the ground to grab their tiny morsel of poo on a platter and are glad they are standing in each other's necks to do it.
I come from a culture that believes we respect all things in our universe, that we take care of the earth as well and all that dwell upon it. The general population in the US has no such core beliefs and would be too busy tearing themselves apart instead of living as intended. You have to change society itself and cure them of greed before they would be ready to live in such ways. It is delusional to think that these same American people who elected a blatant gluttonous repugnant monster like Trump, who Jesus himself said not to even dine with such a man because his behavior is so abhorrent, that are so willing to kill off their most vulnerable would be anywhere near ready to share equally all they have and care for one another. That isn't happening.
The best you have hope for right now is try to work within the current system changing it slowly over time until people are ready to live better. Forcing them to take care of one another through taxation is the best hope you have right now because they sure as hell are not going to do so otherwise.
Please correct me if I'm wrong: wasn't one of your criticisms of other positions that we don't have time for gradual change?
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You either ignored or misinterpreted f0x's point, it wasn't that Obama didn't fix things, it was that he outright supported the Wall Street ghouls that caused the crisis in the first place, therefore showing that expecting Democrats to fix things is absurd given that they are beholden to the same masters.
Anyways you can vote and advocate for more measured laws that's fine, but you're mistake is thinking that is the only solution, it's a half-measure purposefully designed to be easily repealed in the future if these corporate ghouls can get away with it, you're not fighting anything you're nor are you being realistic you're conforming to the pest that is Capitalism and begging for scraps, nothing more.
That being said, it doesn't have to be like that and revolution doesn't necessarily mean a violent uprising, at least not yet you could help educate the masses in these matters that filthy Capitalist society purposefully educate them to hate, promoting the message that we don't have to compete, we can all work together towards a better society, that we can look out for each other and informed them that it has worked in the past, not in a massive scale but independent Anarchist states do exist and are better off for it, until then I'll continue to risk my life showing up at protests and working towards the betterment of society because even if I'm not willing to kill I can't just stand around as these filth leaves us without drinking water for the sake of profit, as these filth charges us exorbitant prizes for the Electricity we generate because they sell it to the USA, as these filth continue to destroy the environment, and here in México we have a "leftist" president, but it doesn't solve anything Lil, capitalism is corrupt, change cannot come within it, at least not permanent meaningful change.
Don't be a defeatist, rather than preaching this liberal Capitalist bullshit, preach a real solution, because you won't change a thing through these half-measures.
There's an indication between a change to a green caplistist mode and a green communist/socialist mode.
If the former's possible and able to be done quickly then of course the latter can wait.
I don't feel like you really read anything I post before spamming links and posts. I don't blame obama for the housing crisis. I blame him for not holding the people responsible accountable.
Out of curiosity, what communist community were you living under?
It's honestly more like we have two options leading to that and he's berating people for wanting to pick one that results in less suffering while he fails to produce a third option.
And it's not like voting for one option here is excluding any other radical option that has yet to appear either. It's just pointless berating for people not taking some path that he can't even suggest a step to.
And what's the real solution? Because if no one is providing me with another I'd rather just vote Biden and hope people I care about don't just flat out lose healthcare. And as far as I know, voting Biden doesn't stop some other choice either. I'm not seeing anyone preaching a practical solution. And revolution isn't a practical solution as an alternative because it doesn't even begin to state how one starts one, it's a big idea not a start to an alternative
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Look, I can't tell you how to start one there, because things are different here, it's easier to start a revolution here because it never ended, we've been engaged in this since 1910 here in México and we already have a separatist anarcho-socialist federation that has existed 1995 which in itself is based on a very brief Anarchist federation that existed for a very short time in the 1910s, which was in itself based on pre-hispanic native ideology of the still existing tribes, so here it's a bit different because the Revolution is real, we're fighting for real, people are genuinely dying for the cause some in actual battle others just by government suppression because they don't want this to be known, but it's getting too big to be silenced lately.
As I see it, what you need on the USA is to establish a movement in the first place, because if there is one I'm completely unaware of it, then decide what the core-ideology is, here in México it's taking back what's rightfully ours that includes our land, our resources and our culture, things are going to be harder there, no doubt after all a big part of why the movement is picking up steam here is that it's not based on nothing, it's not ideas, it's based in a long history and culture and again we've already established a separatist federation in Chiapas, you can literally go and see that it's working, so you guys need to find that core, that thing that people can rally behind, once that's done you need to successfully establish a community, one that like here proves that in a microcosm these aren't just ideas, they're practical solutions, unfortunately though that's the hard part, the government is going to oppose and there's likely going to be bloodshed, but it's the only way, we can't go on living like this, it's simply not satisfactory and if we keep pushing these movements back because it's risky, because it's a pipe dream or whatever there will be nothing left to live in, I don't know if you're paying attention but things are getting worse out there, and you've got to remember one thing just because people aren't dying in the USA it doesn't mean this ideological war isn't taking victims already, I need to remind you that the continuing operations of Coca-Cola, Nestlé, Pepsico, Budweiser, etc are already killing people by the thousands due to hoarding their resources and selling them in other countries, tell the people in Africa and South América how little risk there is in the current régime, please.
Lives are already at risk, this war is already killing people en masse, we have to stop pretending that it isn't, that "Peaceful" protest really is peaceful just because it doesn't kill people in the USA, we're killing everyone, the World is close to an absolute environment catastrophe, the time for moderate action is over, how is it that you people can't see it?
Are you people blind or are you just cowards? I really want to know because things are different now, they can't hide the information like they used to, pretty much all I've said is common fucking knowledge not to mention child labour, across the world as a result of specifically western capitalism, the main mistake you people are making is that you're assuming moderate socialist democracies like the ones in Europe work, but they still promote this capitalist mindset of hoarding resources, of taking them from poorer communities and selling them on cities, they'll still kill us, they don't solve shit, they're just a fucking distraction.
Seriously this unchecked consumption of resources because of Capitalism is draining us, we're consuming more than we even need to the point where most just ends up in the garbage and yet millions of people still die of hunger, it's absolutely absurd! A complete fucking joke, an absolute mockery of life.
All I can say is, you people need to get your head out of your asses and start it for real, whether the rallying cry is there you can use the class divide, the massive racial inequality, the environmental catastrophe, the health crisis, I mean pick your poison and start spreading the word, tell your friends, tell your colleagues at work and spread it, plant the seed of the revolution, that's literally my job in this I have successfully converted most of my office to the cause to the point when I'm fucking considering preaching in the street even though I hate public speaking, I show up to protests and stuff too but you know just start taking action, it doesn't have to be super radical like a call to revolution, empathise with their class struggle, show them that we're on this together, remind everyone the value of solidarity and that we can't just give up, we can't let the Bezos, Gates, Trumps, Musks and Zuckerbergs of this world defeat us, there's more of us we just have to teach the people that we're all in this together.
Also a thing that we do here, is that we fund repairs to public spaces that the government doesn't touch, people are more receptive to the cause if you're actually helpful to the community, you know fixing streets, cleaning, building bridges, that kind of stuff generates a lot of good will and show the people that we really care for the community.
You're talking as if I don't know that we're in a dire situation that people refuse to fix. But what I'm seeing is not someone coming in to say "Hey this is how you fix it", what I'm mostly seeing is someone use it as an excuse to just promote apathy among the current options.
Maybe you need to get your head out of your ass and see that between the current options, some are more harmful for people than others so we care about that. And that someone just saying "Don't care, destroy the system!" isn't really laying out anything easily actionable. And doesn't really even bother to acknowledge the difference in people being hurt either.
And like, okay, suppose I tell everyone this. What am I actually telling them to *do*? What does that accomplish but raise some sort of awareness? What happens with that awareness? When does it get acted on and in what way? And *why* is it relevant to people preferring Biden over Trump? This is like I'm about to eat a stale piece of bread over a shoe, and people are screaming I should start up some kind of collective farm with my community. Nothing about it is immediate or has anything to do with an actual choice I'd be making right now, not mutually exclusive or in any way relevant to it.
And honestly, it's nothing new from f0x, it's just a different flavor of "Don't hate on Trump" than the one he peddled in 2016 which was "Don't be mean to his followers, no wonder they all hate you"
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Look, I don't know f0x very well, I definitely have no idea what his arguments from 2016 were, I rarely ever involve myself in foreign affairs, but you're using your arguments with him as an excuse to do nothing, like seriously who cares if he doesn't propose a solution he's just some random dude on the Internet, I don't think it's realistic to expect him to have the answers.
So disregarding f0x's arguments for a moment though first of all, he's right about one thing which is that the establishment doesn't work in the people's favour or the environment's favour by design, it's meant to work in favour of gathering profits, because that's simply what capitalism, so instead of focusing on his lack of solution let's try to figure it out, first of all the point of an Anarcho-Socialist society which is what I'm personally fighting for is that we need to figure these things out together, as a collective, that the decisions of the the community are made by the community, it's worked in Chiapas for the EZLN for 15 years so far and we want to apply it in a larger scale.
Anyways, the purpose of rallying random people most of which aren't really going to fight to the cause is simple, there has been almost a century of non-stop anti-communist anti-anarchist propaganda, to the point that most people are unaware that Anarchy is a legitimate political ideology and somehow think it's just dumb people trying to incite chaos, which isn't at all what we want, so we have to teach them with patience so once we call for an uprising we'll have their support or at least once the uprising is successful we'll have their support, that's why it's important, very important to educate people about this, to plant the seed on their heads so that they can realise we don't have to live like this.
Another thing we do is that we organise gatherings to talk about the cause, where we address some concerns the communities may have and try to gather funding to cover those needs that the government isn't meeting, things such as food, getting water for marginalised communities, paving roads and that kind of thing, to be honest besides protesting things like lately we've been involved in protesting the opening of a beer factory that would severely drain the city's water supplies (Keeping in mind that this city is where most small towns in this state get their water from and opening that factory would stop them from getting access to it), and to be honest that's mostly the kind of action that we focus on here on the cities at least, our job is mainly to raise awareness of the cause in a mostly peaceful manners, like I won't lie we're an openly militant group and we are calling for a revolution because we want all of México to be free but most of what we do is genuinely just activism under a political banner that openly opposes government, which is a drag because that means that there's a high chance of getting attacked by police in protests, but it is necessary, things are very different towards the South though, where there is actual armed conflict though there are other movements that we sympathise with here that don't gain as much traction because they are very small.
Like I said I can't really tell you how to solve your problems unless like you guys want to join the Mexican rebellion and expand the movement to the USA, you guys are going to have to figure it out on your own, but I can at least suggest some organisation and starting community services for action, which will in turn help the people see that the cause is for real, that it's not just all talk, particularly more important there since US culture does seem to really hate Socialism, perhaps what I would suggest is finding out about other existing Anarchist communities (I'm going with Anarchy because again it's my cause) and to use those as an example while your people build the first larger scale American Anarchy, which really is disingenuous because Native Americans lived in mostly Anarchic societies, which could actually be something that you should take a look at, it might help as a rallying cry, much how the Chiapas separatists work here.
Anyway that's where I would suggest starting, of course there are people far smarter than me that could probably come up with something better, or maybe if you guys discussed it as a community you could reach a much better consensus about what to do, you don't need the Democrats though, like it's fine you can vote for them since this is going to take time and Trump sucks really bad, but like the Democrats are still the enemy, they are still the disgusting authoritarian state.
When did I use it as an excuse to do nothing? You leapt in when tbh all that's happening is this was a thread about Trump's town hall thing, turned into Trump vs Biden stuff, and f0x is spouting "None of this *really* matters". I'm pointing it out what seems to have lead to this and that regardless of any value to this idea of revolution, people aren't reacting to the idea on it's own, they're reacting to someone spouting it without anything useful to it as an alternative to thing it's not an alternative to all, when all the real point is he's arguing for apathy to a choice. I added on the comment about what f0x was doing separate to anything about your suggestions, because I'd rather not overlook what lead to this conversation.
I also don't see anarchy as a solution or desirable end goal in a world where many things we have rely on large scale structure, nor do I think much of what choices people would make overall. Seems like quality would vary region to region. Sure as hell wouldn't wanna live in Alabama if the local communities are determining what shit flies. I'm for a change in a lot of things, but having a nation this size go to anarchy is not one of them.
Fair enough on the spreading ideas bit, changing people's views. Just, without a plan you're not selling them on much. Sell them to be friendlier to socialism? Okay. But that's not selling them on a particular plan of action, or a particular revolution. If you don't know what a thing's gonna look like you really can't sell people on it except in the most general sense.
If you don't know how to solve it, then I'd suggest not berating people for failing to solve it. Unless I'm sorely mistaken you joined a thing, didn't start it yourself.
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Fair enough, f0x did end up changing the topic, and he is rather apathetic, while I do disagree with him to some extent in that voting at least will yield you a slightly less evil capitalist overlord, he is right on the fact that it's ultimately meaningless and that things will continue to get worse, especially in the US since it's a bipartisan system which honestly is even worse than most capitalist democracies, like while our government is awful here in México at least we get to choose from a wide variety of capitalist pigs, which all suck because these kind of systems just don't work at all, but the system itself is marginally better than yours even if the government isn't, though it's not like the US government isn't as corrupt as ours, they just have better PR and are better at hiding it.
Distaste for Anarchy is fair enough, especially considering what mockery modern culture has made of our philosophy boiling us down simply to chaotic agitators, which is very much disingenuous, and yes quality would vary by region quite greatly, after all the system itself isn't perfect and it would still allow the majority to oppress the minority if they so choose, the purpose of the Anarchic regime is to be able to be a bit more fair since the system itself has a horizontal structure in theory everyone gets a say but you're right it's far from a perfect solution, but I think that so far we haven't seen any authoritarian government not abuse that authority, even the Soviet Union which for some stupid reason a lot of leftists treat as if it was good just because they were socialists was absolutely appalling in that regard, but if that's the case I would like to hear what solution you would propose instead, or Lil or any other moderate, because this, choosing Democrats it won't solve all the unjust deaths caused by the Capitalist regime, nor will it solve the environmental problems we're currently facing since it's not profitable to do so, to establish laws and rules to control these issues is just applying a band-aid to a gaping gushing wound, it won't even stop bleeding.
It is selling them an action though, it's either selling them on the action that this is worthwhile and that they need to fight for this or at least selling them on the idea that things will be better and they should not resist change, but you're right the movement is very poorly organised, we're not in particularly good contact with other regions which is very bad, perhaps we should do something about that, I'll see what I can do by speaking to other people and to see if we can start coordinating at a national level rather than just the local level.
Sure, I joined a group, not started it and that's fair, but you know at least we're trying something rather than just giving up, the clock is ticking we're going to need to take action soon and that's why we must start preparing now, the more that we delay it the more probability that things will not be fixable by the time we act, maybe you should see if there's already a group which more or less fits your ideals?
In any case I'll admit that I was a bit harsh, I confused this thread with another one, where the moderates were being very hostile to these ideas, but my first point was right some of the moderates are just turning a blind eye to this, they claim that a Revolution would just cause a lot of deaths and that it's not worth the risk because of that, completely failing to acknowledge that people are dying already in many cases not even from war just from coca-cola factories in places with scarce water, or even things like avocado plantations in Africa where they don't naturally grow hoarding massive amounts of water, there's tons of people dying of hunger too despite the fact that we have food to feed them, like restaurants, they refuse to donate food to shelters because it's not only not profitable but "it will cost them money" this is despite the fact that we've volunteered to cover the transportation costs, yet they still refuse, because Capitalism sucks, and people would rather not do something if it doesn't bring them money, even if it just costs having to wait for a truck to take the damned food.
First of all, I am progressive. I even 100% support basic income and see food, shelter, medicine, education, including higher education, utilities, internet, clothing and transportation as being HUMAN RIGHTS. I see that we should make sure that maintaining a minimum standard of living for all people should be considered a right and see that as a nation's duty included under " looking out for the welfare of the people"
I AM VERY hostile to these STUPID ideas for good reason. First off, the people proposing them here are only trying to get Trump elected, and are doing NOTHING to help save my life, the lives of my friends, family, neighbors and millions of other Americans. They are only shitposting utter nonsense at this point to try to persuade people not to vote and offering no solutions to keep anyone alive until something better happens. Instead, they are actively trying to BLOCK something better happening in the meantime and make sure the party whose policies result in removing food, housing, medicine, and right to life to the poor, disabled and sick instead are able to do so. They are okay with me dying due to their actions, so why shouldn't I be hostile when they are only talking idiocy and have zero concern for me or anyone else for that matter?
Installing a dictatorship is an absurdly stupid idea. Trying to overthrow the Government, US military and police is a stupid idea. Not voting and telling people not to vote is a stupid idea. None of it is a viable solution at all. The only way you control the "US Military" so it doesn't kill you is through VOTING, otherwise you are committing treason and it will kill you if you try to overthrow the government. The sheer level of technology now makes some sort of old style revolution impossible for a nation like the US. Voting is our only current path forward and the only means to get from point A to point B. The reality is that people can only change things in the US by voting. If they want to change who is elected, they have to find a viable means to counteract the disinformation blitz that convinces people not to vote and convinces people that they should vote for scumbags like Trump who literally WANTS banks to foreclose on the poor and actively inflicts harm, suffering and death through his policies.
We can change who is elected in the US, but this has to start on the city, county, and state level, then congress and work our way up to president. IF you control the local, state and congressional races, you then control the electoral college. We have to have actual volunteers willing to do more than just talk online from the comforts of their homes to put a stop to it though. They have to be willing to hit the streets and talk to people to counter disinformation in the cities we need to flip, the congressional races we need to flip. Some can be done online, but you need to be IN those communities to even access many of their local groups in order to do so. It takes involvement, empathy and understanding to be able to make changes and change people's minds.
I am not seeing that they are willing to do so, they aren't even willing to figure out how to keep people alive today, let alone put forth the effort to do what it actually takes to change these things in reality. WHY should you, I or anyone else for that matter put faith in someone or their absurd ideas when they are showing so little disregard for the lives of everyone right now? how easily they just view us, our lives as disposable only goes to show you their intent. If they see that we are disposable for their cause, why would I, or anyone else for that matter want anything to do with their cause? All you would be doing is replacing one government who doesn't care about the people for another that doesn't care about the people. They aren't going to JACK to change anything for the better, they just want to talk people out of changing anything for the better and keeping people alive in the meantime because I do not see that have the best interests of the people in mind at all here to begin with. If they did, they would actually be extremely alarmed by the people's lives at risk today, tomorrow, the next year and make sure ANY plan they have focuses on keeping as many people alive as you can in the process. We have one path here to improvement that means saving the most we can, and one that recklessly kills millions. It isn't difficult to figure out which path to take if you interest is actually saving the people in the first place.
We have a viable path forward, we just have to be smart enough to use it. We have to take the electoral college. Pretending like it can't be done and giving up isn't true and it isn't helping. My own sister was an elector, people acting like this is impossible, either don't understand how this works or they haven't bothered to even try to figure it out. You don't take it by force, you take it by persuasion.
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