There isn't an unironic first step to revolution and installing a dictatorship in the US. Like I said these guys trying to run in giant Undies are less ridiculous than this plan:This, but unironically.
At least someone in that scenario is having fun.There isn't an unironic first step to revolution and installing a dictatorship in the US. Like I said these guys trying to run in giant Undies are less ridiculous than this plan:
You fundamentally misunderstand communist philosophy. Classed based societies are already, functionally, bourgeoisie dictatorships. What Marx and Engals proposed was a dictatorship of the proletariat, which is morally the same. The proletariat dictatorship would proceed to destroy resistance to the new form of society, and gradually dismantly the social and economic strctures that underpinned capitalism. The fundamental difference is that the key goal of this new form of government is that it would ultimately make itself obsolete. Once a classless communist society was formed, it would dismantle itself.NOTHING! I get to be the DICTATOR! MWHAHAHA! Now we fight to the death and this goes on until everyone is dead and the world goes on without us. XD
Because that is just how you determine who is going to be the dictator. Because dictatorships always work out so well...
Either way you drown. A course of action is only as good as its outcome. The outcome you are all proposing is that corporate billionaires continue to siphon of trillions of dollars from the working class for their own benefit, enjoy bailouts when then destroy the economy, and then burn the planet to the ground. Morally, I don't see the people who support this structure as being any better then the billionaires themselves.I know it wouldn't be enough. That's a given. But "not enough" or even "not nearly enough" compares favourably to "nothing". Clutching at straws when you're drowning is better than talking about the design for a great lifeboat that's not ever going to get built. You'll still likely drown each way, but it's something.
Not if the transition is gradual and well organized. The main reason so many communist and anarchic projects failed in the past was because the U.S. imperialists sabotaged the project, or because the leaders weren't real communists in the first place, and simply wanted to be members of the new bourgeoisie.Right. But what this actually means is that having taken the means of production, there's no guarantee that the people we put to run it really know how to do it, which means production nosedives, jobs are lost, living standards decline. With the global interrelatedness of production, your industry actually comes to a grinding halt because being dysfunctional, it probably can't afford all the parts and raw materials etc. to maintain production. You can't buy in much of the vast panoply of modern living that your country doesn't make any more. And so it also goes with state apparatus which also degrades, and much more - no international credit, the government cannot borrow, and cannot spend. Very likely, there's heavy emigation, especially of the highly skilled and educated as they're the people who tend to be persecuted and have their opportunities denied.
The people are likely to become unhappy, and the revolutionary model becomes tarred with failure and loses respect, which causes a drive to return to the pre-revolutionary state, which causes the revolutionaries to crack down. Another wave of emigration.
What this all means is that the country actually spends 10-20 years not solving a load of the world's problems but sorting itself the fuck out, with at least a reasonable chance that the revolution fails and it ends up back exactly where it was.
I " Fundamentally misunderstand communist philosophy" When I actually come from one of those anarcho communist cultures that US imperialists sabotaged you are talking about. The crisis actually occurred under Bush. I lost like 22k in one day. Obama was just expected to walk in and fix it while it was already crumbling in all directions. Obama had to scrap his own agenda due to the mess Bush handed him.You fundamentally misunderstand communist philosophy. Classed based societies are already, functionally, bourgeoisie dictatorships. What Marx and Engals proposed was a dictatorship of the proletariat, which is morally the same. The proletariat dictatorship would proceed to destroy resistance to the new form of society, and gradually dismantly the social and economic strctures that underpinned capitalism. The fundamental difference is that the key goal of this new form of government is that it would ultimately make itself obsolete. Once a classless communist society was formed, it would dismantle itself.
Either way you drown. A course of action is only as good as its outcome. The outcome you are all proposing is that corporate billionaires continue to siphon of trillions of dollars from the working class for their own benefit, enjoy bailouts when then destroy the economy, and then burn the planet to the ground. Morally, I don't see the people who support this structure as being any better then the billionaires themselves.
I mean, the democrats were the ones in charge when the 2008 housing crisis occurred. I don't blame them for its occurrence, but I absolutely blame them for not holding wall street accountable and sending people to prison. You all may as well be republicans.
Not if the transition is gradual and well organized. The main reason so many communist and anarchic projects failed in the past was because the U.S. imperialists sabotaged the project, or because the leaders weren't real communists in the first place, and simply wanted to be members of the new bourgeoisie.
Please correct me if I'm wrong: wasn't one of your criticisms of other positions that we don't have time for gradual change?Not if the transition is gradual and well organized.
You either ignored or misinterpreted f0x's point, it wasn't that Obama didn't fix things, it was that he outright supported the Wall Street ghouls that caused the crisis in the first place, therefore showing that expecting Democrats to fix things is absurd given that they are beholden to the same masters.I " Fundamentally misunderstand communist philosophy" When I actually come from one of those anarcho communist cultures that US imperialists sabotaged you are talking about. The crisis actually occurred under Bush. I lost like 22k in one day. Obama was just expected to walk in and fix it while it was already crumbling in all directions. Obama had to scrap his own agenda due to the mess Bush handed him.
I am telling you that the Us has technologically advanced to the point that your ideas will not work the way you intend them to. The American people themselves too, are not in a place to shift to a communistic society, hell they are not even ready to shift to the European idea of "we take care of our people". The American people are still too busy stomping each other into the ground to grab their tiny morsel of poo on a platter and are glad they are standing in each other's necks to do it.
I come from a culture that believes we respect all things in our universe, that we take care of the earth as well and all that dwell upon it. The general population in the US has no such core beliefs and would be too busy tearing themselves apart instead of living as intended. You have to change society itself and cure them of greed before they would be ready to live in such ways. It is delusional to think that these same American people who elected a blatant gluttonous repugnant monster like Trump, who Jesus himself said not to even dine with such a man because his behavior is so abhorrent, that are so willing to kill off their most vulnerable would be anywhere near ready to share equally all they have and care for one another. That isn't happening.
The best you have hope for right now is try to work within the current system changing it slowly over time until people are ready to live better. Forcing them to take care of one another through taxation is the best hope you have right now because they sure as hell are not going to do so otherwise.
There's an indication between a change to a green caplistist mode and a green communist/socialist mode.Please correct me if I'm wrong: wasn't one of your criticisms of other positions that we don't have time for gradual change?
I don't feel like you really read anything I post before spamming links and posts. I don't blame obama for the housing crisis. I blame him for not holding the people responsible accountable.I " Fundamentally misunderstand communist philosophy" When I actually come from one of those anarcho communist cultures that US imperialists sabotaged you are talking about. The crisis actually occurred under Bush. I lost like 22k in one day. Obama was just expected to walk in and fix it while it was already crumbling in all directions. Obama had to scrap his own agenda due to the mess Bush handed him.
I am telling you that the Us has technologically advanced to the point that your ideas will not work the way you intend them to. The American people themselves too, are not in a place to shift to a communistic society, hell they are not even ready to shift to the European idea of "we take care of our people". The American people are still too busy stomping each other into the ground to grab their tiny morsel of poo on a platter and are glad they are standing in each other's necks to do it.
I come from a culture that believes we respect all things in our universe, that we take care of the earth as well and all that dwell upon it. The general population in the US has no such core beliefs and would be too busy tearing themselves apart instead of living as intended. You have to change society itself and cure them of greed before they would be ready to live in such ways. It is delusional to think that these same American people who elected a blatant gluttonous repugnant monster like Trump, who Jesus himself said not to even dine with such a man because his behavior is so abhorrent, that are so willing to kill off their most vulnerable would be anywhere near ready to share equally all they have and care for one another. That isn't happening.
The best you have hope for right now is try to work within the current system changing it slowly over time until people are ready to live better. Forcing them to take care of one another through taxation is the best hope you have right now because they sure as hell are not going to do so otherwise.
Can't speak for anyone else, but I'm not so much proposing it as predicting it. Humanity isn't going to magically get it's act together to avoid this, but there's not quite nothing we can do to prepare for it.The outcome you are all proposing is that corporate billionaires continue to siphon of trillions of dollars from the working class for their own benefit, enjoy bailouts when then destroy the economy, and then burn the planet to the ground
It's honestly more like we have two options leading to that and he's berating people for wanting to pick one that results in less suffering while he fails to produce a third option.Can't speak for anyone else, but I'm not so much proposing it as predicting it. Humanity isn't going to magically get it's act together to avoid this, but there's not quite nothing we can do to prepare for it.
And what's the real solution? Because if no one is providing me with another I'd rather just vote Biden and hope people I care about don't just flat out lose healthcare. And as far as I know, voting Biden doesn't stop some other choice either. I'm not seeing anyone preaching a practical solution. And revolution isn't a practical solution as an alternative because it doesn't even begin to state how one starts one, it's a big idea not a start to an alternativeYou either ignored or misinterpreted f0x's point, it wasn't that Obama didn't fix things, it was that he outright supported the Wall Street ghouls that caused the crisis in the first place, therefore showing that expecting Democrats to fix things is absurd given that they are beholden to the same masters.
Anyways you can vote and advocate for more measured laws that's fine, but you're mistake is thinking that is the only solution, it's a half-measure purposefully designed to be easily repealed in the future if these corporate ghouls can get away with it, you're not fighting anything you're nor are you being realistic you're conforming to the pest that is Capitalism and begging for scraps, nothing more.
That being said, it doesn't have to be like that and revolution doesn't necessarily mean a violent uprising, at least not yet you could help educate the masses in these matters that filthy Capitalist society purposefully educate them to hate, promoting the message that we don't have to compete, we can all work together towards a better society, that we can look out for each other and informed them that it has worked in the past, not in a massive scale but independent Anarchist states do exist and are better off for it, until then I'll continue to risk my life showing up at protests and working towards the betterment of society because even if I'm not willing to kill I can't just stand around as these filth leaves us without drinking water for the sake of profit, as these filth charges us exorbitant prizes for the Electricity we generate because they sell it to the USA, as these filth continue to destroy the environment, and here in México we have a "leftist" president, but it doesn't solve anything Lil, capitalism is corrupt, change cannot come within it, at least not permanent meaningful change.
Don't be a defeatist, rather than preaching this liberal Capitalist bullshit, preach a real solution, because you won't change a thing through these half-measures.
Look, I can't tell you how to start one there, because things are different here, it's easier to start a revolution here because it never ended, we've been engaged in this since 1910 here in México and we already have a separatist anarcho-socialist federation that has existed 1995 which in itself is based on a very brief Anarchist federation that existed for a very short time in the 1910s, which was in itself based on pre-hispanic native ideology of the still existing tribes, so here it's a bit different because the Revolution is real, we're fighting for real, people are genuinely dying for the cause some in actual battle others just by government suppression because they don't want this to be known, but it's getting too big to be silenced lately.And what's the real solution? Because if no one is providing me with another I'd rather just vote Biden and hope people I care about don't just flat out lose healthcare. And as far as I know, voting Biden doesn't stop some other choice either. I'm not seeing anyone preaching a practical solution. And revolution isn't a practical solution as an alternative because it doesn't even begin to state how one starts one, it's a big idea not a start to an alternative
You're talking as if I don't know that we're in a dire situation that people refuse to fix. But what I'm seeing is not someone coming in to say "Hey this is how you fix it", what I'm mostly seeing is someone use it as an excuse to just promote apathy among the current options.Look, I can't tell you how to start one there, because things are different here, it's easier to start a revolution here because it never ended, we've been engaged in this since 1910 here in México and we already have a separatist anarcho-socialist federation that has existed 1995 which in itself is based on a very brief Anarchist federation that existed for a very short time in the 1910s, which was in itself based on pre-hispanic native ideology of the still existing tribes, so here it's a bit different because the Revolution is real, we're fighting for real, people are genuinely dying for the cause some in actual battle others just by government suppression because they don't want this to be known, but it's getting too big to be silenced lately.
As I see it, what you need on the USA is to establish a movement in the first place, because if there is one I'm completely unaware of it, then decide what the core-ideology is, here in México it's taking back what's rightfully ours that includes our land, our resources and our culture, things are going to be harder there, no doubt after all a big part of why the movement is picking up steam here is that it's not based on nothing, it's not ideas, it's based in a long history and culture and again we've already established a separatist federation in Chiapas, you can literally go and see that it's working, so you guys need to find that core, that thing that people can rally behind, once that's done you need to successfully establish a community, one that like here proves that in a microcosm these aren't just ideas, they're practical solutions, unfortunately though that's the hard part, the government is going to oppose and there's likely going to be bloodshed, but it's the only way, we can't go on living like this, it's simply not satisfactory and if we keep pushing these movements back because it's risky, because it's a pipe dream or whatever there will be nothing left to live in, I don't know if you're paying attention but things are getting worse out there, and you've got to remember one thing just because people aren't dying in the USA it doesn't mean this ideological war isn't taking victims already, I need to remind you that the continuing operations of Coca-Cola, Nestlé, Pepsico, Budweiser, etc are already killing people by the thousands due to hoarding their resources and selling them in other countries, tell the people in Africa and South América how little risk there is in the current régime, please.
Lives are already at risk, this war is already killing people en masse, we have to stop pretending that it isn't, that "Peaceful" protest really is peaceful just because it doesn't kill people in the USA, we're killing everyone, the World is close to an absolute environment catastrophe, the time for moderate action is over, how is it that you people can't see it?
Are you people blind or are you just cowards? I really want to know because things are different now, they can't hide the information like they used to, pretty much all I've said is common fucking knowledge not to mention child labour, across the world as a result of specifically western capitalism, the main mistake you people are making is that you're assuming moderate socialist democracies like the ones in Europe work, but they still promote this capitalist mindset of hoarding resources, of taking them from poorer communities and selling them on cities, they'll still kill us, they don't solve shit, they're just a fucking distraction.
Seriously this unchecked consumption of resources because of Capitalism is draining us, we're consuming more than we even need to the point where most just ends up in the garbage and yet millions of people still die of hunger, it's absolutely absurd! A complete fucking joke, an absolute mockery of life.
All I can say is, you people need to get your head out of your asses and start it for real, whether the rallying cry is there you can use the class divide, the massive racial inequality, the environmental catastrophe, the health crisis, I mean pick your poison and start spreading the word, tell your friends, tell your colleagues at work and spread it, plant the seed of the revolution, that's literally my job in this I have successfully converted most of my office to the cause to the point when I'm fucking considering preaching in the street even though I hate public speaking, I show up to protests and stuff too but you know just start taking action, it doesn't have to be super radical like a call to revolution, empathise with their class struggle, show them that we're on this together, remind everyone the value of solidarity and that we can't just give up, we can't let the Bezos, Gates, Trumps, Musks and Zuckerbergs of this world defeat us, there's more of us we just have to teach the people that we're all in this together.
Also a thing that we do here, is that we fund repairs to public spaces that the government doesn't touch, people are more receptive to the cause if you're actually helpful to the community, you know fixing streets, cleaning, building bridges, that kind of stuff generates a lot of good will and show the people that we really care for the community.
Look, I don't know f0x very well, I definitely have no idea what his arguments from 2016 were, I rarely ever involve myself in foreign affairs, but you're using your arguments with him as an excuse to do nothing, like seriously who cares if he doesn't propose a solution he's just some random dude on the Internet, I don't think it's realistic to expect him to have the answers.You're talking as if I don't know that we're in a dire situation that people refuse to fix. But what I'm seeing is not someone coming in to say "Hey this is how you fix it", what I'm mostly seeing is someone use it as an excuse to just promote apathy among the current options.
Maybe you need to get your head out of your ass and see that between the current options, some are more harmful for people than others so we care about that. And that someone just saying "Don't care, destroy the system!" isn't really laying out anything easily actionable. And doesn't really even bother to acknowledge the difference in people being hurt either.
And like, okay, suppose I tell everyone this. What am I actually telling them to *do*? What does that accomplish but raise some sort of awareness? What happens with that awareness? When does it get acted on and in what way? And *why* is it relevant to people preferring Biden over Trump? This is like I'm about to eat a stale piece of bread over a shoe, and people are screaming I should start up some kind of collective farm with my community. Nothing about it is immediate or has anything to do with an actual choice I'd be making right now, not mutually exclusive or in any way relevant to it.
And honestly, it's nothing new from f0x, it's just a different flavor of "Don't hate on Trump" than the one he peddled in 2016 which was "Don't be mean to his followers, no wonder they all hate you"
When did I use it as an excuse to do nothing? You leapt in when tbh all that's happening is this was a thread about Trump's town hall thing, turned into Trump vs Biden stuff, and f0x is spouting "None of this *really* matters". I'm pointing it out what seems to have lead to this and that regardless of any value to this idea of revolution, people aren't reacting to the idea on it's own, they're reacting to someone spouting it without anything useful to it as an alternative to thing it's not an alternative to all, when all the real point is he's arguing for apathy to a choice. I added on the comment about what f0x was doing separate to anything about your suggestions, because I'd rather not overlook what lead to this conversation.Look, I don't know f0x very well, I definitely have no idea what his arguments from 2016 were, I rarely ever involve myself in foreign affairs, but you're using your arguments with him as an excuse to do nothing, like seriously who cares if he doesn't propose a solution he's just some random dude on the Internet, I don't think it's realistic to expect him to have the answers.
So disregarding f0x's arguments for a moment though first of all, he's right about one thing which is that the establishment doesn't work in the people's favour or the environment's favour by design, it's meant to work in favour of gathering profits, because that's simply what capitalism, so instead of focusing on his lack of solution let's try to figure it out, first of all the point of an Anarcho-Socialist society which is what I'm personally fighting for is that we need to figure these things out together, as a collective, that the decisions of the the community are made by the community, it's worked in Chiapas for the EZLN for 15 years so far and we want to apply it in a larger scale.
Anyways, the purpose of rallying random people most of which aren't really going to fight to the cause is simple, there has been almost a century of non-stop anti-communist anti-anarchist propaganda, to the point that most people are unaware that Anarchy is a legitimate political ideology and somehow think it's just dumb people trying to incite chaos, which isn't at all what we want, so we have to teach them with patience so once we call for an uprising we'll have their support or at least once the uprising is successful we'll have their support, that's why it's important, very important to educate people about this, to plant the seed on their heads so that they can realise we don't have to live like this.
Another thing we do is that we organise gatherings to talk about the cause, where we address some concerns the communities may have and try to gather funding to cover those needs that the government isn't meeting, things such as food, getting water for marginalised communities, paving roads and that kind of thing, to be honest besides protesting things like lately we've been involved in protesting the opening of a beer factory that would severely drain the city's water supplies (Keeping in mind that this city is where most small towns in this state get their water from and opening that factory would stop them from getting access to it), and to be honest that's mostly the kind of action that we focus on here on the cities at least, our job is mainly to raise awareness of the cause in a mostly peaceful manners, like I won't lie we're an openly militant group and we are calling for a revolution because we want all of México to be free but most of what we do is genuinely just activism under a political banner that openly opposes government, which is a drag because that means that there's a high chance of getting attacked by police in protests, but it is necessary, things are very different towards the South though, where there is actual armed conflict though there are other movements that we sympathise with here that don't gain as much traction because they are very small.
Like I said I can't really tell you how to solve your problems unless like you guys want to join the Mexican rebellion and expand the movement to the USA, you guys are going to have to figure it out on your own, but I can at least suggest some organisation and starting community services for action, which will in turn help the people see that the cause is for real, that it's not just all talk, particularly more important there since US culture does seem to really hate Socialism, perhaps what I would suggest is finding out about other existing Anarchist communities (I'm going with Anarchy because again it's my cause) and to use those as an example while your people build the first larger scale American Anarchy, which really is disingenuous because Native Americans lived in mostly Anarchic societies, which could actually be something that you should take a look at, it might help as a rallying cry, much how the Chiapas separatists work here.
Anyway that's where I would suggest starting, of course there are people far smarter than me that could probably come up with something better, or maybe if you guys discussed it as a community you could reach a much better consensus about what to do, you don't need the Democrats though, like it's fine you can vote for them since this is going to take time and Trump sucks really bad, but like the Democrats are still the enemy, they are still the disgusting authoritarian state.
Fair enough, f0x did end up changing the topic, and he is rather apathetic, while I do disagree with him to some extent in that voting at least will yield you a slightly less evil capitalist overlord, he is right on the fact that it's ultimately meaningless and that things will continue to get worse, especially in the US since it's a bipartisan system which honestly is even worse than most capitalist democracies, like while our government is awful here in México at least we get to choose from a wide variety of capitalist pigs, which all suck because these kind of systems just don't work at all, but the system itself is marginally better than yours even if the government isn't, though it's not like the US government isn't as corrupt as ours, they just have better PR and are better at hiding it.When did I use it as an excuse to do nothing? You leapt in when tbh all that's happening is this was a thread about Trump's town hall thing, turned into Trump vs Biden stuff, and f0x is spouting "None of this *really* matters". I'm pointing it out what seems to have lead to this and that regardless of any value to this idea of revolution, people aren't reacting to the idea on it's own, they're reacting to someone spouting it without anything useful to it as an alternative to thing it's not an alternative to all, when all the real point is he's arguing for apathy to a choice. I added on the comment about what f0x was doing separate to anything about your suggestions, because I'd rather not overlook what lead to this conversation.
I also don't see anarchy as a solution or desirable end goal in a world where many things we have rely on large scale structure, nor do I think much of what choices people would make overall. Seems like quality would vary region to region. Sure as hell wouldn't wanna live in Alabama if the local communities are determining what shit flies. I'm for a change in a lot of things, but having a nation this size go to anarchy is not one of them.
Fair enough on the spreading ideas bit, changing people's views. Just, without a plan you're not selling them on much. Sell them to be friendlier to socialism? Okay. But that's not selling them on a particular plan of action, or a particular revolution. If you don't know what a thing's gonna look like you really can't sell people on it except in the most general sense.
If you don't know how to solve it, then I'd suggest not berating people for failing to solve it. Unless I'm sorely mistaken you joined a thing, didn't start it yourself.
First of all, I am progressive. I even 100% support basic income and see food, shelter, medicine, education, including higher education, utilities, internet, clothing and transportation as being HUMAN RIGHTS. I see that we should make sure that maintaining a minimum standard of living for all people should be considered a right and see that as a nation's duty included under " looking out for the welfare of the people"In any case I'll admit that I was a bit harsh, I confused this thread with another one, where the moderates were being very hostile to these ideas, but my first point was right some of the moderates are just turning a blind eye to this, they claim that a Revolution would just cause a lot of deaths and that it's not worth the risk because of that, completely failing to acknowledge that people are dying already .
No.First off, the people proposing them here are only trying to get Trump elected, and are doing NOTHING to help save my life, the lives of my friends, family, neighbors and millions of other Americans.