Another person shot dead this time at a rally and counter protest clash in Denver

Agema

You have no authority here, Jackie Weaver
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Hey it's the present standard being worked with here. If AntiFA is merely an ideology not a group
This is just about the worst semantic sophistry to pollute the forum in ages. Of course Antifa is a group.

It's not a group with a formal organisation, structure and hierarchy, but it most certainly is a group. A "movement", if you like. Just because a person has similar beliefs to Antifa does not mean that person is automatically part of Antifa.
 

Dwarvenhobble

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Yeah, but this is entirely unhelpful without the context of the Freikorps, communist street brawlers and various other groups that existed in Germany in the 20's and 30's and that all existed to exercise violence for political gains. The brown shirts, despicable as they were, were not exceptional or strange in 1920's Germany. Their foremost martyr, Horst Wessel, was killed in a street brawl with communists, because everyone on the political fringes at the time had street thugs fighting.
Antifa shares a lot more with the Antifa formed in the 30's to oppose "fascism" (which ironically mainly was social democrats) then it does the actual brown shirts. Antifa also remained as a fighting anti-nazi organisation post-1933 and forced dissolution of the communist party.

If you want to give a history lesson, know the history you want to teach.
Yes shame modern AntiFA isn't fighting Nazis for the most part and instead just labelling people Nazis for various reasons now for the most part and attacking them for it. As shown in said videos.


No, that's anti free speech at worst and even that's dubious if you're trying to stop people who explicitly want to stop free speech and take away civil liberties from getting their way. The US military is not a democratic organization, yet it fights to protect democracy. Antifa sees itself as something similar. Antifa does not have authoritarian traits. They are not a hierarchical organization, they do not have a strong leader nor do they want a strong, centralized political leadership. Antifa is not ideological, it is a fighting organization and as such they are defined by what they fight and not what they believe. One can absolutely criticize Antifa's choice of targets and tactics (as stated earlier, I am not an antifa supporter) but using violence and wanting to eradicate or intimidate your opponents with violence is not an authoritarian trait in itself.
Yet some of those they've gone after and tried to shut down speeches have been people advocating people speaking. They targeted and even where Daryl Davis was a speaker. The guy whose has convinced 200+ people to leave the KKK just by talking with them. That's some-one they claimed was defending White Supremacists because he advocates not trying to stomp them to death but to prove their beliefs wrong and turn them away from said groups. With AntiFA it's about fighting a perceived enemy not actual change.

I mean FFS one of the videos Iinked was them disrupting an event calling out the terrible response by institutions to pedophiles......... AntiFA fighting people think the Catholic Church hiding pedophile scandals is wrong? How was that fighting fascism again?
 
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Dwarvenhobble

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This is just about the worst semantic sophistry to pollute the forum in ages. Of course Antifa is a group.

It's not a group with a formal organisation, structure and hierarchy, but it most certainly is a group. A "movement", if you like. Just because a person has similar beliefs to Antifa does not mean that person is automatically part of Antifa.
Good so we're now deciding it is a group. Thus can be classified as such. Thus people can argue what it says isn't how it acts. You know like how the US National Centre for Sexual Exploitation doesn't actually fight real sexual exploitation and is just a moral censorship group renamed who want to push puritan values into entertainment?
 

Agema

You have no authority here, Jackie Weaver
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Good so we're now deciding it is a group.
As far as I'm aware, no-one but you thought it wasn't, so don't put that on us.

Thus can be classified as such. Thus people can argue what it says isn't how it acts.
Do you genuinely not understand what Antifa is, or are you deliberately wasting everyone's time with bullshit for the sake of it?
 
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Dreiko

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'US in the left'?!
Wow, I've really misconstrued your orientation from your posting history, so sorry.
No prob. If anything it's a good thing to not fit the stereotype of a Bernie supporter lol. It's not a very flattering one. You can agree with people's economic policy and disagree with their social policy. If you simply value economic policy way more than social issues that makes you their supporter but not their acolyte. People tend to treat parties and their representatives like a cult that you must follow all the teachings of to be a member of it. Too many people treat politics like something you "join" and "belong to" when it in fact is something you pick what you want from and go with what has more of what you like. I don't need to agree with everything a politician thinks, I just need to agree with their approach on the issues I deem as important. If anything, it is the establishment of the left that is the worst about being virtue signaling SJWs with no substance, Bernie's message was mainly what I care about, economic issues, that he got smeared as having the SJW side on his back by the people who will jump at those types of people as long as they protect the status quo was a travesty.

In a quick phrase, I'm a left wing class reductionist, I think if you fix the economic stuff, all the other problems SJWs are mad with will disappear in due time as well. Or at least people will stop minding them nearly as much.


I disagree, the use of illegitimate and unlawful violence is one reason why fascists and antifa are bad, but fascists have so much more shit going on for them to make them worse. Fascism is not primarily about violence, it is just a tool they use to get what they want. To disregard all the ideologically distinct traits of fascism to only focus on their use of unlawful violence is almost disingenuous because it completely misses what fascism is.

If we only focus on unlawful violence then fascism is equal to communism, BLM, Trump supporters, antifa, college protests and any other movement or ideology that ever used violence for any reason. See how very unhelpful that is as a distinguishing trait?
As long as there's no violence and there's someone protecting our current laws, and maintains them, which I support, all you have is an empty threat, which we should be able to live with. If you put up obstacles to people expressing that empty threat it will turn some of them more radical than they would otherwise have been, and give them a valid complaint about their freedoms being taken away, which will spread their message further than it would have otherwise gone.

As long as someone isn't actively using violence, using it yourself to prevent them from using it in the future is more wrong, by a lot, than their idle dreams of one day using violence.


See, this is the kinda thing people on the right mean when they say that antifa hate america or stuff like that, they mean that antifa believe that fundamnetally our laws are hollow and there's no justice or order or anything and they really need to take personal action out of the fact that nobody is taking action, when the reality is that no, we actually DO have laws and justice (the government just caught those guys trying to kidnap a governor, it did not assist them with procuring hi grade ductape to tie her up with) and they just don't like what justice looks like because it doesn't lead to the abolition of capitalism and the end of white culture being seen as dominant in countries white people conquered or founded.

Those things, they are not fascism.
 
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SupahEwok

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3 deflections, congrats on the hat trick. You obviously at least saw the title, because you started going off on how this was totally different from his situation.
Yo fam, I'm gonna tell ya cuz you're my third favorite poster: this is literally the same thread that has happened upteen times this year and the years previous, every time an outlier happens at one of these protests one side of these forums lines up for or against the agent provocateur, and the other side takes the other position, and the exact same mental gymnastics happens for all involved, us included. Go post about videogames or something instead, you'll be much more satisfied than this continued staring into the abyss.
 

SupahEwok

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Please do not insult your fellow Escapist users
You know like how the US National Centre for Sexual Exploitation doesn't actually fight real sexual exploitation and is just a moral censorship group renamed who want to push puritan values into entertainment?
It never fails: even outside the pedo threads, the nonces out themselves.

Please tell me more about hebephilia, how drawings don't have ages, and the age of consent in France. I need to fill my Internet Right-Wing Nonce Bingo Card, Escapist edition, for the 5th time.
 

TheMysteriousGX

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The reason is that in our system, we do not allow those things the first guy wishes to do, they are already illegal, and vigilantism is bad, just as illegal, in fact. The second guy is acting above their station, taking up a task that is not for them, an in the process is violating the rights of people who have only committed thought crimes so far.

It is more wrong to violate the rights of a person who wishes could violate other people's rights, than to wish to violate people's rights but not yet do it because you lack the opportunity. The reason is that merely wishing something is not an act, and we do not punish thought crimes in a free society. We only punish acts. If you fail to grasp this basic moral premise you do not get how this system is supposed to work, or what freedom is.
Please, tell me more about how this can't happen here and would be illegal:

EDIT: Like, the FBI knows this shit is a problem: https://www.cbsnews.com/news/racial...hreat-priority-fbi-director-christopher-wray/
"In many cases, perpetrators can move quickly from rhetoric to violence, Wray said."
But what we cannot do is prevent the spread of said rhetoric in anyway, violently or non-violently, because rights.
Because that makes us just as bad, apparently

Just let the nazis have their rallies, recruit with no pushback, march through neighborhoods full of people they want to abuse and intimidate, and trust the police to go after any fas that crosses the li--
Oh
 
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Agema

You have no authority here, Jackie Weaver
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This all maybe, but it is still not showing how Antifa is fascist. Just because we disagree with Antifa's goals or methods that does not make them fascists, no matter how problematic they are.
It's simple, isn't it? The fascists are the people who think political violence is okay to achieve political goals...

...say the people enthusiastically defending militia and cops shooting their political opponents.
 

Dwarvenhobble

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As far as I'm aware, no-one but you thought it wasn't, so don't put that on us.
Lol sure sure. Funny how quickly people forget.


Do you genuinely not understand what Antifa is, or are you deliberately wasting everyone's time with bullshit for the sake of it?
Oh I do.


It never fails: even outside the pedo threads, the nonces out themselves.

Please tell me more about hebephilia, how drawings don't have ages, and the age of consent in France. I need to fill my Internet Right-Wing Nonce Bingo Card, Escapist edition, for the 5th time.
I'm sorry what kind of weird ass projection is this? I'm not even going to dignify this utter bovine excrement you're throwing about with more of a response other than this.

This is one of the games they object to being sold.

Madison-Art-room.jpg

Are you telling me you believe she's a young teen?
 

Dreiko

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Please, tell me more about how this can't happen here and would be illegal:



"In many cases, perpetrators can move quickly from rhetoric to violence, Wray said."
But what we cannot do is prevent the spread of said rhetoric in anyway, violently or non-violently, because rights.
Because that makes us just as bad, apparently

Just let the nazis have their rallies, recruit with no pushback, march through neighborhoods full of people they want to abuse and intimidate, and trust the police to go after any fas that crosses the li--
Oh
We now know that eugenics is wrong. It's like with blood-letting, when you work with complex issues like medicine, you're bound to get it wrong. It's not wrong for leaders to act based on what they at the time believe to be credible information, even if that thing happens to be cutting off the skin off of newborn penises for magic reasons. As long as people legit think that's the way to go to advance their civilization, it is not them being fascist but just catastrophically ignorant when they do this sort of stuff.

The thing about the Ice doctor involves like, one crazed maniac, it's not an official policy set up by the government that is treated the same way eugenics was back in the day. Apples and oranges.


And yes, you can only ever prevent the violence, not the rhetoric, because people are free.

Do you know of people who fight for the rights of prisoners and convicts and other such types, who try to make a case for them still having human rights? It's kinda like that, only these people aren't EVEN convicts of anything to begin with. If you wanna get the right of convicts to vote back and wanna advocate for more humane treatment and not stigmatizing them when they get out of jail like I do, you will also have to advocate for the rights of people who merely thought the bad thing but didn't do it to not be a hypocrite. You don't have to like them to respect their rights.


And yes, that's why we're not a fascist country, because we have the FBI (F stands for FEDERAL, it refers to our government) that catches all those bad people.


All workers of all jobs are people, even cops and gynecologists. Statistics show that a % of them will be criminals, insane, addicts, etc. That, does NOT mean that these institutions are corrupt. It just means they're imperfect, because they're run by people, and people are imperfect. To ask to tear em down and rebuild them is like the right wingers asking to privatize everything cause the DMV sucks and they want a smaller government. Both views fail to comprehend that as long as people run these systems there will be people-related faults within them which have nothing to do with the systems being bad or in need of change.

If a place is fascist, their FBI works in cahoots with the violent nationalists or whatever other group you have, it does not track, arrest and prosecute them.
 

Agema

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Lol sure sure. Funny how quickly people forget.
"Group" is an imprecise term. "People over 60 years old" is a group, but they don't have a unified organisation, structure, official membership scheme or speak with a common voice. The Democratic Party is a group, and mostly has an organised structure, membership scheme and mostly common voice. The FBI is a group, and is very heavily structured, with very clear identification of membership and a very unified voice.

Antifa is more along the loose end of a group. It doesn't have a formal organisation, an official membership, it has no official spokespeople. But quite obviously there are people who voluntarily affiliate / associate themselves with it and ones that don't. There are certain ideological commonalities between the people who do associate with it, but nor does the group represent everyone with those ideological leanings (in much the same way there can be multiple political parties representing similar ideals).

None of this is actually difficult unless you want to make it so. And if you want to make it so, basically you're just mucking around with the people you're talking to for no purpose other than being obstructive.
 

Buyetyen

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Do you genuinely not understand what Antifa is, or are you deliberately wasting everyone's time with bullshit for the sake of it?
Always assume the latter. You'll be proven right more often than not.

We now know that eugenics is wrong. It's like with blood-letting, when you work with complex issues like medicine, you're bound to get it wrong. It's not wrong for leaders to act based on what they at the time believe to be credible information, even if that thing happens to be cutting off the skin off of newborn penises for magic reasons. As long as people legit think that's the way to go to advance their civilization, it is not them being fascist but just catastrophically ignorant when they do this sort of stuff.
Are those leaders responsible or not for the damage caused by their policies that they based on incorrect information?

And yes, that's why we're not a fascist country, because we have the FBI (F stands for FEDERAL, it refers to our government) that catches all those bad people.
How charmingly naive. The FBI is subject to many of the same biases as the local pigs. And in fact the right wing has been actively interfering with the bureau's ability to do its job by defunding all the departments monitoring right wing radicals, white supremacists, anti-government militia groups, etc. And that's to say nothing of the number of mass shootings we have in this country and how many are politically motivated that the FBI wasn't able to stop.

That, does NOT mean that these institutions are corrupt.
Being corrupt does. Which the pigs most assuredly are. When one of their own murders a fellow cop by shooting through his door hoping to hit a protester after his boss specifically told him that is illegal, the FOP came to his defense. There has never been a crooked cop that the FOP did not defend.
 

Dwarvenhobble

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"Group" is an imprecise term. "People over 60 years old" is a group, but they don't have a unified organisation, structure, official membership scheme or speak with a common voice. The Democratic Party is a group, and mostly has an organised structure, membership scheme and mostly common voice. The FBI is a group, and is very heavily structured, with very clear identification of membership and a very unified voice.

Antifa is more along the loose end of a group. It doesn't have a formal organisation, an official membership, it has no official spokespeople. But quite obviously there are people who voluntarily affiliate / associate themselves with it and ones that don't. There are certain ideological commonalities between the people who do associate with it, but nor does the group represent everyone with those ideological leanings (in much the same way there can be multiple political parties representing similar ideals).

None of this is actually difficult unless you want to make it so. And if you want to make it so, basically you're just mucking around with the people you're talking to for no purpose other than being obstructive.
So how without organisational structure of any kind are Riot Kitchen able to get supplies, produce things and then organise where to deliver the things to and who to deliver them to?
 

Silvanus

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So how without organisational structure of any kind are Riot Kitchen able to get supplies, produce things and then organise where to deliver the things to and who to deliver them to?
Underlining mine. I thought we were talking about Antifa?
 

Dreiko

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Always assume the latter. You'll be proven right more often than not.



Are those leaders responsible or not for the damage caused by their policies that they based on incorrect information?



How charmingly naive. The FBI is subject to many of the same biases as the local pigs. And in fact the right wing has been actively interfering with the bureau's ability to do its job by defunding all the departments monitoring right wing radicals, white supremacists, anti-government militia groups, etc. And that's to say nothing of the number of mass shootings we have in this country and how many are politically motivated that the FBI wasn't able to stop.



Being corrupt does. Which the pigs most assuredly are. When one of their own murders a fellow cop by shooting through his door hoping to hit a protester after his boss specifically told him that is illegal, the FOP came to his defense. There has never been a crooked cop that the FOP did not defend.
If you listen to your doctor when you're not yourself a doctor and have no idea either way about something, you're not responsible for whatever ill follows, the doctor is.


The FBI is not perfect, our system is founded upon the principle that when someone does something bad even within these organizations, they will also go to jail too. This idea helps allow justice to exist. When something unjust occurs, that's just people being imperfect, the system is fine.

And yes, corruption should already be illegal (political donations are legal which is absurd and should change). Just arrest all those corrupt pigs. No resistance here. If you wanna form an anti-police cop force which only works on policing corrupt police I'm all up for that, but the actual intended function of the police is fine the way it is.
 

Agema

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So how without organisational structure of any kind are Riot Kitchen able to get supplies, produce things and then organise where to deliver the things to and who to deliver them to?
Not having a formal organisational structure is not the same as not having any organisation.