Will Joe Biden Drop Out of the Presidential Race

[Agema]

A certain kind of freedom and autonomy-- the bourgeois kind-- they had no respect for, true. But a major point of the Bolshevik revolution(s) was to secure other kinds of freedom and autonomy for many more individuals. For example, liberating the peasants from domination by landowners. One of the main motivations of Marx was his observation that capitalism had not even remotely delivered on the French revolution's slogan of "Liberty, Equality, Fraternity", and that spirit also animated the Bolshevik revolution(s). That spirit may eventually have been corroded by a powerful central bureaucracy, but it did exist.

Marx certainly appears to have had an idea that communism would eventually grant freedom and autonomy. However, that's not the same attitude as Lenin and the Bolsheviks, who were more likely to squash it wherever they found it. They were anti-democratic and autocratic right from the start: the actual libertarian left was as vigorously suppressed as anyone else.

The irony of the Soviet Union is that it was that after the October revolution it was formed with power supposedly residing in the actual soviets themselves, which represented local communities. However, the Bolsheviks, having toppled the Kerensky government and acting as an interim administration, were operating a council that had the ability to overrule the council of soviets. Which of course they immediately did when the soviets, which had only elected about 25% of members from the Bolsheviks, declined to do what they were told. Eventually the Bolsheviks just banned all the other parties and thoroughly subjugated the soviets to central control. Countless times in the early days, Lenin carried out measures intended to grant freedom, and then snatched it away instantly. The farms were taken from landowners and given to the peasants, but when the peasants didn't run the land and production the way the Bolsheviks wanted, the Bolsheviks massacred a load of them and reorganised them from the top down.

I wouldn't waste my time saying the Bolsheviks ever had any meaningful commitment to individual freedom and autonomy, because whatever those nice ideas that they might have taken from Marx to motivate the proletariat, they never seem to have had any interest in occurring.

 

[Trunkage]

You can dredge through the old forum if you like, I'm not gonna call people out who I'm not currently engaged with, that'd just be picking fights.

Yes. Of course. That's resounding proof. Here's what I remember - a desperate plea for someone to take it seriously

Well, let me say it outright then. You are pretending that people asking questions of Trump is insulting to him.

You are being like Trump. Trump keeps pretending he's the most attacked person ever. The media are just asking him question as they always done. Are they biased? Yes just like they've always been.. All that has changed is that he wants the media to agree with him, because disagreements aren't allowed.

 

[tstorm823]

Well, let me say it outright then. You are pretending that people asking questions of Trump is insulting to him.

That's not the problem. Question all you want. Insult all you want. Have a field day.

The problem is that people are so thoroughly blinded by the bias against Trump, they've lost their sense of reason. Anything Trump says it met with hatred and disgust, without regard to what it is. The current crisis is packed full of people denying science, conventional wisdom, and even their own words from a few days before solely because Donald Trump said something.

The IFR was always going to be substantially less than the CFR in the early stages, regardless of what Trump said about it, but people can't agree with Trump.
Viruses spread less in the summer than the winter, everyone knows this, that's why flu season exists. But people can't agree with Donald Trump.
The media spent a week or two comparing it to the flu and telling people not to worry, Trump says the literal same thing, people flip instantly cause they can't agree with Trump.
Experts suggest Hydroxychloroquine might be an effective treatment for covid patients, Donald Trump repeats what the experts told him, suddenly that drug is literal poison because people can't agree with Trump.
People blame China while Trump is praising their response, then Trump starts blaming China too, and suddenly blaming China is racist because people can't agree with Trump.

I don't care if people dislike Trump, question him, insult him, even want him removed from office. But those things shouldn't be prioritized over truth and reason, and people just toss those things aside when they conflict with the perpetual hatred of Donald Trump.

 

[Agema]

The problem is that people are so thoroughly blinded by the bias against Trump, they've lost their sense of reason.

Yeah, we're all a bunch of thickos. That explains everything.

The IFR was always going to be substantially less than the CFR in the early stages, regardless of what Trump said about it, but people can't agree with Trump.
Viruses spread less in the summer than the winter, everyone knows this, that's why flu season exists. But people can't agree with Donald Trump.
The media spent a week or two comparing it to the flu and telling people not to worry, Trump says the literal same thing, people flip instantly cause they can't agree with Trump.
Experts suggest Hydroxychloroquine might be an effective treatment for covid patients, Donald Trump repeats what the experts told him, suddenly that drug is literal poison because people can't agree with Trump.
People blame China while Trump is praising their response, then Trump starts blaming China too, and suddenly blaming China is racist because people can't agree with Trump.

I don't care if people dislike Trump, question him, insult him, even want him removed from office. But those things shouldn't be prioritized over truth and reason, and people just toss those things aside when they conflict with the perpetual hatred of Donald Trump.

Oh for heaven's sakes.

Trying to argue a few individual items along the way as being technically correct in some form just doesn't come close to making up for all the flaws. This is like arguing we're being unfair to fail a student for an essay he got 2/10 for, because at least he got 2 marks. You see what you get in information quality when Fauci or Birx walks up to the mic? That's how it should be from the president. That's how it would be from virtually any other president in living memory.

The government, particularly the President, is to convey important and useful information in a consistent and easy-to-understand manner for the benefit of the country, to help educate and guide the population. If what the president said is too vague to reasonably ascertain he is right, then he has failed. If he portrayed potential cures in an unbalanced and unrealistic light, he has failed. If he has made people think the potential impact of a disease is far less than it might be, he has failed. If he has waffled opinion and "hunches" rather than the best evidence of the best experts, he has failed.

And thus he has duly failed, consistently, in spades, for months on end.

 

[tstorm823]

Oh for heaven's sakes.

Trying to argue a few individual items along the way as being technically correct in some form just doesn't come close to making up for all the flaws. This is like arguing we're being unfair to fail a student for an essay he got 2/10 for, because at least he got 2 marks. You see what you get in information quality when Fauci or Birx walks up to the mic? That's how it should be from the president. That's how it would be from virtually any other president in living memory.

The government, particularly the President, is to convey important and useful information in a consistent and easy-to-understand manner for the benefit of the country, to help educate and guide the population. If what the president said is too vague to reasonably ascertain he is right, then he has failed. If he portrayed potential cures in an unbalanced and unrealistic light, he has failed. If he has made people think the potential impact of a disease is far less than it might be, he has failed. If he has waffled opinion and "hunches" rather than the best evidence of the best experts, he has failed.

And thus he has duly failed, consistently, in spades, for months on end.

It's not about Trump. It's about everyone else.

Take your test suggestion. Hypothetically, you'd want a consistent 10/10 from the president. Imagine Trump gets a 5/10 on an issue. That's bad, that's a failure, I agree. But half of the country is looking over Trump's shoulder and filling in the opposite bubbles, because "Trump is always wrong" is their method of determining truth, that's a bigger problem. Because half the room just failed.

Like, my brother is not a dumb person. He's a college professor. In truth, he's probably more conservative than I am, but he lives in the city and works at a university and votes blue, because that's what people do in that situation, so I'm sure he wouldn't describe himself that way. Anyway, in a conversation about covid-19, he mocked the "open by Easter" comment Trump made, and I suggested we might be past the peak here by Easter, and then the summer would do a lot of good. And like, he rolled his eyes at that, like I was being a ridiculous Trump person. Oh hey look, turns out both of those comments are accurate. And if his understanding of current events wasn't determined primarily by news sources hyper-saturated with Trump hit pieces, he'd have thought it through for 6 seconds and understood that. But no, disagreeing with Trump is all you need.

That's dumb, that's dangerous, and people need to stop.

 

[Silvanus]

Take your test suggestion. Hypothetically, you'd want a consistent 10/10 from the president. Imagine Trump gets a 5/10 on an issue. That's bad, that's a failure, I agree. But half of the country is looking over Trump's shoulder and filling in the opposite bubbles, because "Trump is always wrong" is their method of determining truth, that's a bigger problem. Because half the room just failed.

The population is going to be making assumptions, coming to wrong conclusions, interpreting what they hear. This happens in every situation of this gravity and severity. That's exactly why clarity and consistency is so vital, and it's why experts have been so emphatic about the importance of clear communication.

Now, when Trump says one thing and then contradicts himself, or when he says something against expert advice, or when he speculates about random things he reckons might work during a press briefing, it opens a huge area of ambiguous information. The truth could be anywhere in there, amongst the avalanche of free-form speculative thoughts and contradictions.

So, people drawing their own conclusions are not just assuming the opposite of what Trump says. They're assuming that whatever he says has no bearing whatsoever on the truth, positive or negative. And... that's accurate. The safest thing to do is just entirely disregard his nonsense and listen directly to Dr. Fauci or whomever else.

But it's Trump's failure to present any coherent message that has opened the door ever wider for the growth of misinformation and assumption. People are supposed to be able to get a single, relatively clear and straightforward set of instructions from the head of government: that's what deference to authority would generally lead people to do. But people in the US cannot listen to their President. So we just have to hope they have the good sense to listen to the experts, rather than coming to their own disparate conclusions.

Anyway, in a conversation about covid-19, he mocked the "open by Easter" comment Trump made, and I suggested we might be past the peak here by Easter, and then the summer would do a lot of good. And like, he rolled his eyes at that, like I was being a ridiculous Trump person. Oh hey look, turns out both of those comments are accurate.

"Open by Easter" wasn't accurate in the slightest. That would've been insanely premature. The mortality rate was still rising into the second half of April in the US. And Summer hasn't even begun in the Northern Hemisphere.

 

[Agema]

It's not about Trump. It's about everyone else.

Of course it's about Trump.

I know it's hard to remember because they've been pretty rare, but Trump has actually managed to give effective, fluent on-message speeches which don't descend into boasting, insults and inappropriate partisanship. The media actually write nice things about him when he does that. So they're perfectly happy to give him credit... he just needs to do a proper job to earn it.

Like I said, look at the precision and clarity of Fauci or Birx when they address an issue. Then compare Trump. It's really, really bad, isn't it? Remember Obama? I mean, you might not like his policies, but boy could he communicate clearly and effectively. GWB might have mangled his words amusingly at times, but at least you knew what he was talking about, and it was sane even if you disagreed with it.

I repeat for the millionth time, guidelines for effective communication stress clarity and consistency in government messaging, because the media aren't going fix foul-ups for them and the public are easily confused. Clarity and consistency. Clarity and consistency. So not burbling waffle about injecting bleach because, "they say maybe you can, maybe you can't, I'm not a doctor, I'm like, a person that has a good you-know-what". Not responding to early covid concerns and what plans the government has with "[it will] maybe go away. We’ll see what happens. Nobody really knows... it is going to disappear. One day it’s like a miracle – it will disappear."

 

[tstorm823]

So, people drawing their own conclusions are not just assuming the opposite of what Trump says. They're assuming that whatever he says has no bearing whatsoever on the truth, positive or negative. And... that's accurate. The safest thing to do is just entirely disregard his nonsense and listen directly to Dr. Fauci or whomever else.

You're trying to tell me that people disregard Trump. I feel I've made a thorough rebuttal of what you're saying in just that sentence. You're trying to tell me that people disregard Trump. Ok then.

Of course it's about Trump.

Well that's not my fault. When I said it's not about Trump, I was referring to what I was saying. That you all can't stop talking about Trump isn't my doing. I suggest something about Democrats, "but Trump", I talk about covid-19 "yeah but Trump", abstract concepts of political ideologies "can't we just bring the conversation back to Trump?" Truuuuuuuump.

I point out lists of concrete ways that mainstream discourse has lost touch with reality in the course of criticizing Trump, and the only response I can get here is "but Trump sucks". To which I get to say "ok, but that's not my point". Followed by "but Trump sucks!" Round in circles. You (plural) won't allow the discourse to move beyond this trap.

Do you believe people have espoused untruths in their disagreements with Trump that could have been avoided if they weren't so intent on doing so? I don't know where you stand on that suggestion, because despite responding to me you haven't expressed much beyond "How does thee suck, Trump? Let me count the ways..."

Edit: I responded to this before I saw what the Flynn thread turned into. I couldn't ask for a more perfect example of the "but Trump" trap.

 

[Silvanus]

You're trying to tell me that people disregard Trump. I feel I've made a thorough rebuttal of what you're saying in just that sentence. You're trying to tell me that people disregard Trump. Ok then.

Disregarding his advice.

You said half the country is looking over his shoulder and "filling in the opposite bubbles", deciding that the opposite of whatever he says is the truth.

But nobody is actually assuming the opposite to be true. The people you're describing are actually just ignoring his advice altogether, in practice, except to comment on it.

And that's the safest approach. The safest approach is just to disregard whatever advice the highest political authority in the country gives.

 

[SupahEwok]

Disregarding his advice.

You said half the country is looking over his shoulder and "filling in the opposite bubbles", deciding that the opposite of whatever he says is the truth.

But nobody is actually assuming the opposite to be true. The people you're describing are actually just ignoring his advice altogether, in practice, except to comment on it.

And that's the safest approach. The safest approach is just to disregard whatever advice the highest political authority in the country gives.

Well, no, let's be fair. When Trump was talking about injecting bleach and UV rays, I did go do the opposite: when people in my household returned from outside, I sprayed them down with bleach before they could blink, and shoved them in a man sized microwave for a decontamination sequence.

I had some doubts at first, and the results were less than ideal, but man, I sure showed that Trump what-for.

 

[Trunkage]

That's not the problem. Question all you want. Insult all you want. Have a field day.

The problem is that people are so thoroughly blinded by the bias against Trump, they've lost their sense of reason. Anything Trump says it met with hatred and disgust, without regard to what it is. The current crisis is packed full of people denying science, conventional wisdom, and even their own words from a few days before solely because Donald Trump said something.

I was going to do my normal turn your arguments against yourself thing. I mean, if we were always against, we say that giving out $1200 is evil. But that wouldn’t make a story, would it. Trump can’t make it turn into his favour when people AGREE with him.

The reason I say this, despite all my misgivings of Obama, Bushes or Reagan, they at least took hits like a man. Well, half credit to a Reagan because he sometimes didn’t handle it well and threw around jail time far too much. Trump is no where near the most criticised president ever. He’s just the one who throws a tantrum the best. I mean, Hillary lost because she insulted once. Dukakis lost because he got into a tank. Bush lost from one broken promise. Trump’s behaviour would have sunk any other presidency. Reagan has done way worse things but he was way better at hiding it.

But, let’s talk about blinded bias. Because a Trump has lost all sense of reason when it comes to the media. Like, I can’t believe journalists act so NICELY around him. Man, just throw some insults at him during press conferences ,MSM. It’s what he does to you and he’s never showed an once of respect for you.

The IFR was always going to be substantially less than the CFR in the early stages, regardless of what Trump said about it, but people can't agree with Trump.

People have been saying that it may or may not because these are unprecedented times. Making predictions on previous information may be not a great idea, especially since the US is opening up. Take precautions because it’s unpredictable. But sure, it’s about Trump

Viruses spread less in the summer than the winter, everyone knows this, that's why flu season exists. But people can't agree with Donald Trump.

The US is opening up. It’s highly likely that you will get a spike. We have some data on UV but it’s Too early to Be conclusive. Thinking that summer will be great is preemptive and doesn’t bode well for 6mths from now. But sure, it’s about Trump

The media spent a week or two comparing it to the flu and telling people not to worry, Trump says the literal same thing, people flip instantly cause they can't agree with Trump.

The media got it wrong. They changed their tune when better data came up that proved that they were wrong. But sure, it’s about Trump

Experts suggest Hydroxychloroquine might be an effective treatment for covid patients, Donald Trump repeats what the experts told him, suddenly that drug is literal poison because people can't agree with Trump.

No, Trump Said we should use it ASAP, fast track it, without the context of getting tested properly. This one is actually about Trump, he needs to be aware that things take time and you can’t bully a cure into existence

People blame China while Trump is praising their response, then Trump starts blaming China too, and suddenly blaming China is racist because people can't agree with Trump.

The media blames the Chinese GOVERNMENT. Trump keeps saying China without the government part. It’s like when the media attacks Netenyuha. That isn’t racist, because they’re not attacking all Jews, they’re attacking a government. All he has to do is add one word and he’d be fine. Attack a government, not a whole race. If you don’t, you will have racially based attacks on your hands

I want to be clear here. A lot of these problems would have been nipped in the bud if Trump was clear about what he said. But he isn’t and gets infuriated when people ask follow up questions. Just apologise when you’ve made mistake isn’t of blaming others. Think before you speak. Understand, your words carry weight with people, and they will follow it, which will lead to violence or peace

 

[tstorm823]

I was going to do my normal turn your arguments against yourself thing. I mean, if we were always against, we say that giving out $1200 is evil. But that wouldn’t make a story, would it. Trump can’t make it turn into his favour when people AGREE with him.

The internet spent several weeks calling the US a hellhole for only giving out a $1200 dollar stimulus compared to Canada giving $2000/month to the recently unemployed, ignoring the extra $600 a week in unemployment the US also added along with the stimulus. Then, when tax filing companies hadn't provided correct direct deposit information to give people their stimulus, and the IRS started sending out paper checks to those individuals, people spread the conspiracy that Trump had stopped their direct deposit process so that people had to see his name on the checks.

People literally made your example of agreement into multiple attacks on Trump.

 

[Trunkage]

The internet spent several weeks calling the US a hellhole for only giving out a $1200 dollar stimulus compared to Canada giving $2000/month to the recently unemployed, ignoring the extra $600 a week in unemployment the US also added along with the stimulus. Then, when tax filing companies hadn't provided correct direct deposit information to give people their stimulus, and the IRS started sending out paper checks to those individuals, people spread the conspiracy that Trump had stopped their direct deposit process so that people had to see his name on the checks.

People literally made your example of agreement into multiple attacks on Trump.

Giving $1200 is not evil. No one has ever said this

Thinking that this is enough to survive more than a few of weeks is not going to work. People were pointing out the flaw in Trump's plan. There is a reason why people are turning up with guns at legislatures. It's because $1200 is not enough

It's great that he's helping. But the people need more or there is going to be violence

Now, as far as I'm aware he did ask Mnuchin to put his name on the check which slowed everything down. But they also didnt take into account the limit on checks he can create per day. I dont remember him explaining that problem Also, the website crashed, just like the ACAs. Governemnt arent very good at gauging demand. But, to be fair, demand is never as high as a government policy. Lastly, promising to be able to send money as a direct deposit is an oversight that somone should have picked up beforehand (although I remember commenters pointing this out at the same time they were complaining about the request to Mnuchin .ie. about a week before they were scheduled to start. But, you know Fake News media is always wrong) Yes, there was a conspiracy theory adding all these elements together. No, these are all failures were mostly foreseen BEFORE any checks were sent out. I give him a slight pass on the website as he didnt have a lot of time.

And I want to repeat. No one thought giving out $1200 is evil. They thought it wasn't enough. Now, if you want to complain how this is unfair on Trump, go right ahead. He hasnt done enough mostly because he hasnt understood the problem. And its mostly because he doesn't listen to experts, doesnt listen to (most) media, fired anyone who disagreed with him and filled it with yes men which has lead to an echo chamber that doesnt give him the information he needs. Most of that is his own doing

 

[Silvanus]

The internet spent several weeks calling the US a hellhole for only giving out a $1200 dollar stimulus compared to Canada giving $2000/month to the recently unemployed, ignoring the extra $600 a week in unemployment the US also added along with the stimulus. Then, when tax filing companies hadn't provided correct direct deposit information to give people their stimulus, and the IRS started sending out paper checks to those individuals, people spread the conspiracy that Trump had stopped their direct deposit process so that people had to see his name on the checks.

Again, you're acting as if these criticisms are just plucked out of the air. In this instance, two senior members of the IRS told the Washington Post that it could cause a delay, because coding would need to be changed. That's a potential legitimate fear, with sources, and it's the media's job to report on these things.

For what it's worth, Mnuchin has said it was his idea, not Trump's.

 

[Agema]

Well that's not my fault. When I said it's not about Trump, I was referring to what I was saying. That you all can't stop talking about Trump isn't my doing. I suggest something about Democrats, "but Trump", I talk about covid-19 "yeah but Trump", abstract concepts of political ideologies "can't we just bring the conversation back to Trump?" Truuuuuuuump.

It's not Nancy Pelosi who is the executive leader of the USA who stands up giving coronavirus briefings every day. What's she done that we should regularly discuss her? It's not like people weren't noting and critical of some of the Congressional shenanigans trying to pass bills about covid-19 back when it was occurring. It's not like people haven't commented on state governors like Cuomo or deWine as they've been relevant.

I'm not particularly interested in scouring through the internet for wilder, far-fetched anti-Trump conspiracy theories. I know you want to talk about them because you keep bringing them here (e.g. #192), but we don't. We're already full up criticising the real stuff.

 

[tstorm823]

It's not Nancy Pelosi who is the executive leader of the USA who stands up giving coronavirus briefings every day. What's she done that we should regularly discuss her? It's not like people weren't noting and critical of some of the Congressional shenanigans trying to pass bills about covid-19 back when it was occurring. It's not like people haven't commented on state governors like Cuomo or deWine as they've been relevant.

Have they though? Have we been talking about New York sending people covid-19 patients back to nursing homes? Have we talked about them just last week starting to disinfect the subways? How about after all the criticism of states that held primaries, Democrats in California are setting up in person polling in only a few places for a special election after early mail-in voting is weighted in Republican's favor? Can I complain about my governor threatening to revoke business licenses if they open, the same guy who released a list of essential businesses and forgot to list pharmacies at first, and then gave his personal cabinet company an exception to keep working?

What's the percent chance you engage with any of those things without referencing Donald Trump?

 

[lil devils x]

Have they though? Have we been talking about New York sending people covid-19 patients back to nursing homes? Have we talked about them just last week starting to disinfect the subways? How about after all the criticism of states that held primaries, Democrats in California are setting up in person polling in only a few places for a special election after early mail-in voting is weighted in Republican's favor? Can I complain about my governor threatening to revoke business licenses if they open, the same guy who released a list of essential businesses and forgot to list pharmacies at first, and then gave his personal cabinet company an exception to keep working?

What's the percent chance you engage with any of those things without referencing Donald Trump?

I would like to point out that while it is nice to have clean subways, and they should have always been kept clean as it is, however that is going to do little to nothing to protect the people riding the subway from COVID-19. Due to the close proximity people are to one another on the subway, and the sheer numbers of people involved, they would essentially need all passengers and staff to be in hazmat suits for that to be safe for them to use it. Disinfecting it is more of just a public gesture than it is in actually being an effective means of reducing the spread since they are not disinfecting it in between each passenger that uses it , keeping passengers 6 feet a part with masks and goggles and providing hand sanitizer stations and wipes throughout the subway cars. Since none of that is possible, the subway is in no way going to be safe.

The closing of the subways at night is more of an inconvenience and added expense to late night workers in an attempt to promote a false sense of security among the less informed with an otherwise meaningless gesture.

 

[tstorm823]

I would like to point out that while it is nice to have clean subways, and they should have always been kept clean as it is, however that is going to do little to nothing to protect the people riding the subway from COVID-19. Due to the close proximity people are to one another on the subway, and the sheer numbers of people involved, they would essentially need all passengers and staff to be in hazmat suits for that to be safe for them to use it. Disinfecting it is more of just a public gesture than it is in actually being an effective means of reducing the spread since they are not disinfecting it in between each passenger that uses it , keeping passengers 6 feet a part with masks and goggles and providing hand sanitizer stations and wipes throughout the subway cars. Since none of that is possible, the subway is in no way going to be safe.

The situation is actually dumber than just a public gesture. They're closing down and cleaning a few hours a night as an front to move the homeless out of the subways. That way there won't be riders around to see that process happen. Like, it's difficult to imagine a more at covid risk person than the homeless taking shelter in NYC subway cars, yet there they were for an entire month of pandemic. Coupled with stories of parties having to be broken up, swanky clubs opening for invite-only rich guests, central park more crowded than ever, it's unclear whether the city is doing anything other than shut businesses down.

 

[Agema]

What's the percent chance you engage with any of those things without referencing Donald Trump?

We've just had about a week's worth of conversation about covid-19 in another thread on this forum that pretty much didn't mention Trump once.

Trump would be furious about that - hurts his ratings.

 

[lil devils x]

We've just had about a week's worth of conversation about covid-19 in another thread on this forum that pretty much didn't mention Trump once.

Trump would be furious about that - hurts his ratings.

No kidding, After polls came out showing Fauci was far more popular than Trump, he started retweeting " fire Fauci" nonsense. He has a history of firing people who are more popular than he is and appears to get angry when that happens.

• President Donald Trump's approval rating when it comes to his coronavirus response is underwater in Florida, a key swing state that's being hit hard by the pandemic.
• Meanwhile, 85% of registered Florida voters approve of infectious disease expert Dr. Anthony Fauci's response effort, according to a poll published by the University of North Florida on Monday.

Anthony Fauci's coronavirus approval rating in Florida is almost double Trump's, according to a new poll

Almost 60% of Florida voters said they don't trust the president to provide reliable information about the pandemic.

www.businessinsider.com