Hello, Elliot Page

Thaluikhain

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Hey, just noticed in that article Obsidian Jones posted, it's saying "Juno star". C'mon, that film was like 15 years ago.

Do I really need to explain why someone who claims to be trans but still has a penis and has had numerous girls say he's asked for pictures of them and he's been involved in lots of other scummy stuff with the ball waxing incidents, is untrustworthy?
Having a penis, or asking girls for pictures doesn't mean someone isn't trans, or untrustworthy, though the latter can be done really badly and often is.

Having been involved in lots of other scummy stuff doesn't make someone not trans, either.
 

Specter Von Baren

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Hey, just noticed in that article Obsidian Jones posted, it's saying "Juno star". C'mon, that film was like 15 years ago.



Having a penis, or asking girls for pictures doesn't mean someone isn't trans, or untrustworthy, though the latter can be done really badly and often is.

Having been involved in lots of other scummy stuff doesn't make someone not trans, either.
So somehow transitioning is the most important thing you can do for someone who says they are trans, so much so that we need to use puberty blockers on kids, yet also not important at all and in fact irrelevant?
 

Seanchaidh

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Do I really need to explain why someone who claims to be trans but still has a penis and has had numerous girls say he's asked for pictures of them and he's been involved in lots of other scummy stuff with the ball waxing incidents, is untrustworthy?
None of that is actually terribly relevant to the question, even if it might seem like it at first glance. Trans people can have the 'wrong' genitals, trans people can be homosexual, trans people can be scummy, and trans people can be dishonest like anyone else.
 

Buyetyen

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As to why not take Yaniv at his word? Do I really need to explain why someone who claims to be trans but still has a penis and has had numerous girls say he's asked for pictures of them and he's been involved in lots of other scummy stuff with the ball waxing incidents, is untrustworthy?
Yes. Yes you do. A lot of trans women still have dicks. Lots of trans women are into women. There are even trans women out there who are just bad people. Explain to me why this means you get to arbitrate who is and is not trans. If you're sorry for blowing up at me, then you should also be apologizing to the trans community. Saying, "You can't be a trans woman because you still have a penis," is one of the most offensive things you can possibly say to a trans woman.
 

Specter Von Baren

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None of that is actually terribly relevant to the question, even if it might seem like it at first glance. Trans people can have the 'wrong' genitals, trans people can be homosexual, trans people can be scummy, and trans people can be dishonest like anyone else.
Would he still be on the street and being defended by you if he didn't claim to be trans? Because we learned about all this stuff over a year ago yet he was still free to try to get into a beauty pageant a month ago? Seems like he has a lot of protections from what would usually happen just because of that claim.
 

Buyetyen

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Would he still be on the street and being defended by you if he didn't claim to be trans? Because we learned about all this stuff over a year ago yet he was still free to try to get into a beauty pageant a month ago? Seems like he has a lot of protections from what would usually happen just because of that claim.
This is a bit like saying it's okay to use racial slurs so long as the person you're referring to is a bad person. Yes, you could do that. The question is, should you?
 

Revnak

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So somehow transitioning is the most important thing you can do for someone who says they are trans, so much so that we need to use puberty blockers on kids, yet also not important at all and in fact irrelevant?
Do hormone blockers remove the penis?
 
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Casual Shinji

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Yep, from this moment until the end of time, I will look upon your thumbnail and think "that is a disembodied, transgender penis, on the run after being liberated due to hormone therapy" :D
Don't symbolize me, I'm too fragile.
 

Eacaraxe

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"Lack the capacity to talk about it", because I wasn't making a point that was limited to trans men specifically. This particular deflection is actually pretty pathetic. I mean, you yourself posted a link to an article primarily about Caitlyn Jenner, which by this tortured logic is the same kind of "erasure".
An article about Caitlyn Jenner and Aydian Dowling, a trans man, who you conveniently seem to have left out of your cunning analysis, written by whom I wonder? I mentioned the selfsame author in a quite specific list, of a certain demographic entirely relevant to the conversation...I wonder which demographic that might be...

Unbelievable. Even in your rebuttal to my argument you're erasing trans men, you still erase trans men and then have the absolute gall to act self-righteous.

...The author even says she's being courageous and "beyond brave", and that the article isn't a criticism of her...
Well, you clearly at least parsed the article for things that agreed with you. Little wonder then, you seemed to have missed the author's point about centering the conversation about trans people around celebrity...

The jab about ad-homs, from somebody who furiously insults and denigrates other users as a first recourse, is a bit rich.
As a first recourse? No, not at all, really. It's only when people come back at me with cherry-picked responses that ignore the point I was actually making to build straw men of my posts to attack sidebars, supplementary evidence, and secondary points in order to deflect from my real arguments and then proceed to erroneously accuse me of derailing, that I consider it game on. I won't be held responsible for the forum conduct of a chosen few here, whose etiquette and epistemology are an affront to the principle of charity.

This is a cosy little rewrite. Your original argument on Folsom Street Fair wasn't about how people shouldn't apply "internal pressure or censure"; it was about how its very existence "serves to perpetuate negative stereotypes of the non-heterosexual community".
Do you not believe this sort of behavior to be potentially harmful to others in the community who have no wish to participate in it or identify with it? Because that's kind of my whole-ass point here.

Everything about how the community should drop a street fair to avoid external ire.
Drop? No. That's an incredibly disingenuous read of my post.

Nobody's pretending anybody is "above reproach", and this is all another verbose deflection.
Well, except you, who's trying to poison the well and deflect away from criticism of the LGBTQ movement. Even while simultaneously acting as a case example in real time of the chief criticism levied, no less.

Unless you think the very existence of Folsom Street Fair or the BDSM subculture deserves "reproach and criticism"-- because of course "internal prejudices and phobias, peer pressure, and gatekeeping" played... zero part in the original tract that brought up FSF.
No political movement should be above criticism. Nor should it refuse to engage in collective introspection and adapt its tactics to changing times. End of story.
 

Silvanus

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An article about Caitlyn Jenner and Aydian Dowling, a trans man, who you conveniently seem to have left out of your cunning analysis, written by whom I wonder? I mentioned the selfsame author in a quite specific list, of a certain demographic entirely relevant to the conversation...I wonder which demographic that might be...

Unbelievable. Even in your rebuttal to my argument you're erasing trans men, you still erase trans men and then have the absolute gall to act self-righteous.
Considering this entire tangent was a result of your hyper-focus on a single link I used, in the context of a wider point that was in no way solely or specifically about trans men alone, I'm just going to leave this particular line here. The "erasure" accusation was, from the start, a well-poisoning tactic of your own.

Well, you clearly at least parsed the article for things that agreed with you. Little wonder then, you seemed to have missed the author's point about centering the conversation about trans people around celebrity...
Nope, that point was obvious. It also doesn't vindicate your line of accusation against Page himself. The author of the piece has quite specifically targeted his criticism at the media circus surrounding it, and was at pains not to denigrate the individuals themselves who've come out.

As a first recourse? No, not at all, really. It's only when people come back at me with cherry-picked responses that ignore the point I was actually making to build straw men of my posts to attack sidebars, supplementary evidence, and secondary points in order to deflect from my real arguments and then proceed to erroneously accuse me of derailing, that I consider it game on. I won't be held responsible for the forum conduct of a chosen few here, whose etiquette and epistemology are an affront to the principle of charity.
You tend to resort, from the very beginning of almost every forum dispute you engage in, to scorn, derision, sarcasm, and derogatory comments. It's not just a rejoinder when someone else has engaged in foul play. The default setting appears to be intense aggression.

Do you not believe this sort of behavior to be potentially harmful to others in the community who have no wish to participate in it or identify with it? Because that's kind of my whole-ass point here.
I consider internal peer pressure and intra-community sniping and censure to be harmful to people within the community. I've experienced it first-hand myself, thank you. I do not consider the existence of a gated (as in, kids can't just wander in) subculture street fair to be perpetuating negative stereotypes of the gay community. You wanna go, you go. You don't, you don't, and the fair doesn't reflect on you.

Well, except you, who's trying to poison the well and deflect away from criticism of the LGBTQ movement. Even while simultaneously acting as a case example in real time of the chief criticism levied, no less.
Ah, a prime instance of progressive discussion: a commentator telling a queer person that they're a poor representative of their community. Yeah, no right-wing tropes here, no siree.

No political movement should be above criticism. Nor should it refuse to engage in collective introspection and adapt its tactics to changing times. End of story.
If the tactics involve shutting down conventions & fairs so as to avoid the ire of straight people, then I don't consider them very good tactics. I consider them shrinking-violet nonsense.