Election results discussion thread (and sadly the inevitable aftermath)

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Silvanus

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Like, I'm perfectly willing to entertain the idea that ballots put in the mail by election day should count. My problem with the court isn't the idea of the policy they ordered. It's that they ordered it. Not in response to election laws being illegal as written. Nothing in the federal or state constitutions dictates we have to count late mail-in ballots. The court shouldn't be able to just decide that because they want to. But they did, literally because the Democratic Party asked them to. Like, look at this:
It's a legal and constitutional principle that voting must be accessible and within means. The pandemic changed the parameters for what is necessary to meet that standard.

Honestly, ease-of-voting has never been out of the reach of the judiciary. There's no reason it would be. But PA's voting arrangements should be out of the reach of another fucking state.
 
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Houseman

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After a recount, Biden lost ~2000 and Trump gained ~5000


Things that make you go "hmmmm"
 

tstorm823

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It's a legal and constitutional principle that voting must be accessible and within means. The pandemic changed the parameters for what is necessary to meet that standard.
Funny it only changed the parameters of the constitution in Pennsylvania, and not the 27 other states that don't accept late ballots. It's also funny that in an effort to avoid congregating in person, they instituted physical locations where one could do a mail-in ballot by congregating in person.
 

TheMysteriousGX

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Funny it only changed the parameters of the constitution in Pennsylvania, and not the 27 other states that don't accept late ballots. It's also funny that in an effort to avoid congregating in person, they instituted physical locations where one could do a mail-in ballot by congregating in person.
It's not "funny", it's literally how states are run. They all take care of their own elections. Some states either didn't need to change or didn't give enough of a shit
 
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SilentPony

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Nope, it was 12. Stop lying




The table you posted is fraudulent. It's not real. The numbers you are quoting are lies. And you're going to say "Oh these are official numbers" And no they're not. They're numbers from a pro-Trump lawyer trying to get Trump's campaign to hire him for "legal work".
 

Houseman

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Nope, it was 12. Stop lying
What I posted is the difference between election night results and the final hand recount.

That's why the tweet says "note the difference between the 12/17 hand recount (should have been an audit but they wouldn’t do one) and the 11/3 vote"
 

Silvanus

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Funny it only changed the parameters of the constitution in Pennsylvania, and not the 27 other states that don't accept late ballots.
Yes, every state determines their own electoral rules, that's true. And protected in the constitution.

It's also funny that in an effort to avoid congregating in person, they instituted physical locations where one could do a mail-in ballot by congregating in person.
...which still lessens the necessity of going all at the same time to the same place.
 

crimson5pheonix

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What I posted is the difference between election night results and the final hand recount.

That's why the tweet says "note the difference between the 12/17 hand recount (should have been an audit but they wouldn’t do one) and the 11/3 vote"
Where did the numbers in their chart even come from? Trump won Antrim county in the first place. The 11/3 total was Trump: 9,748 to Biden: 5,960
Where did they even get 7769 vs 4509? Did they just pluck the numbers from the aether?
 

Houseman

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Where did the numbers in their chart even come from? Trump won Antrim county in the first place. The 11/3 total was Trump: 9,748 to Biden: 5,960
Where did they even get 7769 vs 4509? Did they just pluck the numbers from the aether?
What I posted is the difference between election night results and the final hand recount.
 

crimson5pheonix

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tstorm823

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It's not "funny", it's literally how states are run. They all take care of their own elections. Some states either didn't need to change or didn't give enough of a shit
Yes, every state determines their own electoral rules, that's true. And protected in the constitution.
Do none of you understand how the government is supposed to work here? The state legislature is free write its election laws. They did that. Those laws didn't include many changes pushed through by local election officials and the state court system. The courts should only be involved if the rules formulated by the legislature violate other laws.

If the state had changed the rules by the methods prescribed by law, there'd be no problem. We didn't do that. The Democrat run PA Supreme Court decided to overrule the Republican run legislature and order whatever changes they felt like, even though the rules as they were written are perfectly legal with every level of government.
 

TheMysteriousGX

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Do none of you understand how the government is supposed to work here? The state legislature is free write its election laws. They did that. Those laws didn't include many changes pushed through by local election officials and the state court system. The courts should only be involved if the rules formulated by the legislature violate other laws.

If the state had changed the rules by the methods prescribed by law, there'd be no problem. We didn't do that. The Democrat run PA Supreme Court decided to overrule the Republican run legislature and order whatever changes they felt like, even though the rules as they were written are perfectly legal with every level of government.
Which rule are we talking specifically? Because it looks like you're very wrong on every count
 

Phoenixmgs

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That's not the proper perspective when considering judicial decisions. The organization of the government here is the legislature makes the rules, the executive enacts the rules, the judiciary interprets the rules.

When legislature writes laws, you ask "what of that is against the constitution"? In fact, that's the courts job, to determine what is and isn't against the laws established by the constitution and legislature.
The courts are supposed to act when the law has been violated. You understand the states are largely allowed to conduct their elections as they see fit. The PA legislature has large discretion on what the election laws for the state are. The court should not be involved unless those laws are in conflict with state or federal constitutions or existing law.

Like, I'm perfectly willing to entertain the idea that ballots put in the mail by election day should count. My problem with the court isn't the idea of the policy they ordered. It's that they ordered it. Not in response to election laws being illegal as written. Nothing in the federal or state constitutions dictates we have to count late mail-in ballots. The court shouldn't be able to just decide that because they want to. But they did, literally because the Democratic Party asked them to. Like, look at this:


The Democratic majority of the court decided, because the Democratic Party asked them to, to extend the deadline (because of conspiracy theories that Trump was going to stop the mail, lest we forget that nonsense), to keep open de facto early voting stations, and to kick the Green Party candidate off the ballot for faxing paperwork instead of delivering the original copy. (That last one, a lower court had said "ok, just let them hand in the originals now, problem solved", and they overturned that.)

Seriously, these people acted like scum. Partisan scum. It's really infuriating.
What are you talking about? In the article you linked to, the court was acting because lawsuits were filed. Who is supposed to act on these lawsuits then? How was the court the originator of these orders?

As others have posted, what in the federal or state constitutions dictates late mail-in votes are not to be counted? Why are you against counting votes that were legitimately cast? What other process discards something because it was delayed in the mail? Because any other official paperwork that you have to turn in by a set date is fine as long as you mailed it at or before that time. How isn't that just common sense policy?

Why aren't posting about voter how bad the voter suppression laws are in the South like Georgia that cause more voter disenfranchisement than counting some late mail-in votes? The whole electoral college (my vote in the presidential election didn't count for example) and the fact that we don't have rank-choice voting causes far more voter disenfranchisement as well.
 

Phoenixmgs

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Funny it only changed the parameters of the constitution in Pennsylvania, and not the 27 other states that don't accept late ballots. It's also funny that in an effort to avoid congregating in person, they instituted physical locations where one could do a mail-in ballot by congregating in person.
What about the 23 other states that, I'm assuming, accept late ballots?
 

Houseman

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It's not though


The official count given to the state after the election vote was tallied is so wildly different from what you posted that it beggars belief. Like, they just picked numbers out of nothing.
Yeah, they changed their numbers


" The retracted version said President Trump only had 4,509 votes in Antrim County. Election officials began working towards new unofficial results after learning early Wednesday morning that something wasn’t right. "
 

crimson5pheonix

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Yeah, they changed their numbers


" The retracted version said President Trump only had 4,509 votes in Antrim County. Election officials began working towards new unofficial results after learning early Wednesday morning that something wasn’t right. "
Oh so it is bullshit, got it. They're using an unofficial number made before the tallying finished, which has no bearing anywhere on anything related to this, since this was an audit of the Dominion voting machines if I understand correctly, and the audit done on the 17th shows that the machines did not do anything untoward to the vote total.
 

Silvanus

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Do none of you understand how the government is supposed to work here? The state legislature is free write its election laws. They did that. Those laws didn't include many changes pushed through by local election officials and the state court system. The courts should only be involved if the rules formulated by the legislature violate other laws.
I'd say you don't really understand the proscribed role of the judiciary very well. The state legislature is free to determine its election laws. It's meant to do so according to the legal principle that voting should be reasonably accessible. The PA judiciary decided that in order to keep to that principle, additional measures were justified to make mail-in voting easier.

Because of that legal principle, that call is entirely within their jurisdiction. It's a complete irrelevance that other state judiciaries didn't make the same call.

But, to be honest, this entire discussion is a distracting farce. To argue that this pedantic little technicality justifies overturning the result of a popular vote-- which is supposed to be the very fundamental basis of the American system-- shows how little they care for law or democracy.
 

Houseman

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Oh so it is bullshit, got it. They're using an unofficial number made before the tallying finished, which has no bearing anywhere on anything related to this, since this was an audit of the Dominion voting machines if I understand correctly, and the audit done on the 17th shows that the machines did not do anything untoward to the vote total.
That's one story.


The Antrim County Clerk and Secretary of State Jocelyn Benson have stated that the election night error (detailed above by the vote "flip" from Trump to Biden, was the result of human error caused by the failure to update the Mancelona Township tabulator prior to election night for a down ballot race. We disagree and conclude that the vote flip occurred because of machine error built into the voting software designed to create error.
 
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