Gaming Journalists Make No Damn Sense

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Nick Calandra

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This is one thing that has seriously annoyed me: Gamers have been whining for years "video games are art just like any other medium; they deserve respect", but the instant people start examining games from a political angle- y'know, like has been done for every other medium since time immemorial- those very same gamers whine "it's just a video game; don't take it so seriously". It's a classic case of wanting to have their cake and eat it too, and it exposes the fact that those gamers just want to stop being called "children" for playing games but don't want any actual adult criticism of their hobby.
Yea, that's the crux of it. But you know, they typically find their home in a few specific places. There's a lot of people that DO like that sort of analysis, and you CAN build an audience around that and have meaningful, civil and engaging discussions. At least that's the hope, and for the most part I feel like we've been achieving that on the rebuilt Escapist for the most part.

A lot of it just comes down to moderation, which I know is a word people hate, but that's why I'm pretty on top of it on the website, because a lot of times people interject into conversations just to be an ass, and then the whole thread is derailed by that one person. Can't handle discussing topics that challenge you and expand your line of thought? Stick to Reddit and Twitter haha.
 
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Worgen

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Whatever, just wash your hands.
I never implied that. I don't mind discussing politics, I just don't deal with going off base with their reviews insulting their, supposedly, target audience.


You and your friends opinions. Not everyone else's. It worked for some people, yes. But if it was a knock out success, we would not be having this discussion. DMC5 would not exist and DmC 2 would been out by now. Sales were underwhelming, because most of the casual audience did not care for it, and the hardcore audience hated it. The problem with DmC story is that it takes itself too seriously and acting like it's saying something important. When it's not. Dante is a bigger douche in the "I don't care, too cool for school' attitude. The DE edition sold even less, in spite of many improvements. All falling on death ears. DMC4 Special Edition sold more than DmC. DmC may not be the worst game, but is defintely getting less relevant each year and falls in to the weird voids of reboot no one was asking for. Lost to time. There are awesome combo videos of course, but that is only the most dedicated.


You not caring about DMC does not change damn thing. Nor does it make it a lesser example. You keep blowing off or undermining the examples I do bring up.
Just be more careful with your language, cause it can be saying something you might not be meaning for it to say in the moment.

All of this is opinions, art is like that, there is no objectively best art you can use to gauge everything. When we see reviews of games, we aren't generally getting objective fact, we are getting the opinion of the reviewer. My friends would also be included in that hardcore crowd since they had played and mastered all the other DMC games, they just happen to also really like DmC. Wouldn't the "I'm too cool for school" attitude be a fit for Dante? I mean this is supposed to be younger Dante, generally people chill out a bit as they get older, but he was always over the top with that kinda attitude.

I'm saying I don't care about it because I don't, I have no emotional connection to it or really the series as a whole, I like the games but the only ones I played were Devil May Cry(quite liked it), Devil May Cry 2(didn't like it), a little Devil May Cry 3(liked it but I was only borrowing it), some DmC (it was ok) and Devil May Cry 5(good but no Bayonetta 2). I feel like you probably wouldn't be making these same points with another game series since I get the feeling you are really emotionally invested in the series.
 

Worgen

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Whatever, just wash your hands.
Yea, I agree with pretty much everything you said, though, aside from loud people online, I think most would be OK with politics that challenge them in their media, and that's on either side of the spectrum, as long as it's got proper context and it's presented in an interesting and engaging way.

I think a lot of members of the media get their bad rap from doing the same thing as the people they detest in regards to politics though, if they don't agree with it, they don't like it, and then they constantly generalize people and group them into any number of terms nowadays. Just like OP did in saying all journalists suck or whatever, ya know?

On Twitter, we wouldn't even be having this debate lol.
I would like to agree that people would like to have a discussion about politics that challenge them. But, in the aforementioned Dark Souls Sterling video, it not only got way fewer viewers initially, people also ended up leaving his patreon for things he said in it, so that vid actually impacted his earnings.

Would we not on twitter? I only just signed up for a twitter and it was mainly to follow some artists I like, despite it apparently being kinda crap for that. I just want to see a list of people I'm following, not have every damn post they make show up in a timeline.

So it's not necessarily "you're being political", it could be "I think what you said is political"?

If so, I wouldn't be so quick to accuse others of "being political" or "pushing politics" if it could be just as possible that it's all just in my head.


That seems like you're generalizing everyone who says "I don't want politics..." as having double standards. That isn't very nice.
Well, its kinda both. I still think the choice of language was deliberately designed be political, but if I also straight up agreed with that then I probably wouldn't have noticed or called it out.

Ultimately I think it is kind of a double standard. If everyone agrees then its not political, its only political when someone disagrees. Its like the first amendment, its not there for speech you agree with, its kinda for speech you don't. You don't have to protect what everyone agrees with since that is already protected.
 

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Ultimately I think it is kind of a double standard. If everyone agrees then its not political, its only political when someone disagrees. Its like the first amendment, its not there for speech you agree with, its kinda for speech you don't. You don't have to protect what everyone agrees with since that is already protected.
Or, it could be as Nick said: By saying "keep politics out" they mean "keep propaganda out/stop trying to influence my beliefs". That way, we give the benefit of the doubt to everyone and we don't have to accuse anybody of having double standards.

Do you have any reason to believe that they don't really mean "stop trying to influence my beliefs"? It seems consistent with what we've seen.

Nobody (any by that I mean gamers, not 'journalists' writing clickbait) had a problem with the MGS games and their commentary on war and censorship. Nobody had a problem with Bioshock's politics. Is that because everybody just coincidentally agreed with the political messages of these games? Or is it because these games didn't try to propagandize and shove a particular belief down your throat?

On the one hand, we have evidence of how games are treated when they don't propagandize. This is giving the benefit of the doubt and would cost you nothing. On the other hand, you have your personal anecdote on how politics you agree with don't "pop out" at you, and Jim Sterling's video (which I admit I haven't watched). This is assuming bad faith and can be seen as an insult.

Which seems more likely to you?
 
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Just be more careful with your language, cause it can be saying something you might not be meaning for it to say in the moment.
I am careful. Nobody else misinterpreted what I've been saying. How else could have meant it? Dont' assume or project. Nor put words in to other peoples mouths. I've done so before back in my imdb days, and the results ain't pretty. Start paying extra attention and don't assume the worst. I did not assume the worst or put words in to your mouth when reading your posts.

All of this is opinions, art is like that, there is no objectively best art you can use to gauge everything. When we see reviews of games, we aren't generally getting objective fact, we are getting the opinion of the reviewer. My friends would also be included in that hardcore crowd since they had played and mastered all the other DMC games, they just happen to also really like DmC.
That's a no brainer and no duh. I already know everything is subjective when it comes media.They're allowed to like whatever they want. All just said was that the DmC reboot failed to do what it suppose to accomplish and the sales show. DMC5 exists and not DmC 2; that part is an actual fact.

"I'm too cool for school" attitude be a fit for Dante? I mean this is supposed to be younger Dante, generally people chill out a bit as they get older, but he was always over the top with that kinda attitude
Nope. Reboot Dante fits that attitude better in this case. DmC!Dante is that punk kid that takes himself too seriously, has the "I (pretend I) don't care about anything, so that makes me cool". The asshole that thinks he's everything and a bag of chips. Dante, no matter the version (other than 2 & anime), knows how to make fun of himself. DmC!Dante is just a worse version of Nero and DMC3!Dante. DmC should have been its own game or spin-off (exactly like DMC1 and RE4), because the name did not live up to the legacy. DmC!Dante I barely tolerate now, but before 2016, I could not stand him. The only characters I like were Kat, Phineas, and Bob Barbas. Mundus was generic, bald, evil Bruce Willis combined with Kingpin, Areus, and Arkham. With none of the otherworldly, eldritch, threat that was the original. Lilith was a waste of space and uninteresting, and I hate DmC!Vergil more than DmC!Dante. DmC should have either been a spin-off with Nero or a different demon hunter. Or a completely different name. Call it Limbo City and be done with it. Definitely would have fared better.



I feel like you probably wouldn't be making these same points with another game series since I get the feeling you are really emotionally invested in the series.
I have emotional investments to a lot of series. DMC just happens to be one of them.
 

Thaluikhain

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Eh, you can't really take politics out of games, gaming journalism, or really, anything else. More or less everything is political, to a greater or lesser extent. Now, you can take "politics I don't like" out of such things, but that's not the same at all, even if it's often claimed to be.
 
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hanselthecaretaker

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I would like to agree that people would like to have a discussion about politics that challenge them. But, in the aforementioned Dark Souls Sterling video, it not only got way fewer viewers initially, people also ended up leaving his patreon for things he said in it, so that vid actually impacted his earnings.

If they’d truly been following the lore, then they simply chose to ignore what should’ve been pretty obvious. Maybe it was the fact he blatantly stated it as such that ruffled the feathers of those who “don’t want politics in my games”, but it reveals the fragile nature of how we perceive entertainment and how we draw our own limits around what it could or should mean.

The irony would be it is ultimately just entertainment, yet how much would those people’s attitudes differ from Lord Gwyn’s if given the choice.


*edit* it’s so nice being able to edit without ?’s replacing all the apostrophes now.
 

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Or, it could be as Nick said: By saying "keep politics out" they mean "keep propaganda out/stop trying to influence my beliefs". That way, we give the benefit of the doubt to everyone and we don't have to accuse anybody of having double standards.

Do you have any reason to believe that they don't really mean "stop trying to influence my beliefs"? It seems consistent with what we've seen.

Nobody (any by that I mean gamers, not 'journalists' writing clickbait) had a problem with the MGS games and their commentary on war and censorship. Nobody had a problem with Bioshock's politics. Is that because everybody just coincidentally agreed with the political messages of these games? Or is it because these games didn't try to propagandize and shove a particular belief down your throat?

On the one hand, we have evidence of how games are treated when they don't propagandize. This is giving the benefit of the doubt and would cost you nothing. On the other hand, you have your personal anecdote on how politics you agree with don't "pop out" at you, and Jim Sterling's video (which I admit I haven't watched). This is assuming bad faith and can be seen as an insult.

Which seems more likely to you?
The fact that you don't see the attempts to "propagandize and shove [particular beliefs] down your throat" that exist in MGS and Bioshock is rather worrying and not a great indicator for your grasp of this topic; those games aren't exactly subtle with them. It also shows how the "stop trying to influence my beliefs" line really just boils down to yet another form of "don't say things I disagree with."
 

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Then they should say what they mean (and mean what they say). Besides, what is the point of having a discussion on anything if everybody's forbidden from saying something someone else disagrees with? The whole "keep politics out"-argument overwhelmingly means "keep post-modern status quo criticism out" (as in feminism, GLBTQ and social justice).



These people don't mind, even praise, the anti-war message of Modern Warfare or the deconstruction of Objectivism in BioShock or the ardent anti-proliferation and anti-jingoism in MGS because those are traditional politics and not part of the "culture war" that rages on the internet. All three of those games are very in your face with their messages, MGS even halts gameplay for half an hour at a time so that the supporting cast can keep telling you that nuclear weapons are bad, the military industrial complex is dangerous and we need to be cognizant of information control. MGS2 is even hailed as nigh-prophetic because of its message of manipulation and information control, despite it being a very political message.

"Politics" for the "keep politics out" crowd means social justice. It is a dog whistle that everyone understands at this point. "Politics" is a black woman as an important NPC (or even worse, the PC), it is making a party companion an asexual woman, or two seconds of screen time for a transgender flag in the corner of the screen. "Politics" is decreasing the size of a female NPCs breasts in the remake of a game that's 23 years old or changing the short skirt of the female PC to a pair of skorts in the remake of a 21 year old game. "Politics" is not geo-politics, traditional political ideologies or even warfare.

It is telling that the "keep politics out" crowd was fine with the heavy handed anti-capitalism message that is every second of The Outer Worlds, yet they balked at Parvati being asexual and having a sidequest involving a romance between two women. It is equally telling that they don't bat an eye at the weird American jingoism (made by Swedes) that is the Division 2 or the fetishization of the military that's Ghost Recon: Wildlands/Breakpoint but are ready to boycott the remake of FFVII because Tifa has smaller boobs and more clothes or rage against Celeste because a trans-flag showed up as an easter egg for two seconds.

At some point, too much good faith makes you a sucker. When you keep believing people that say they don't want politics in games, yet fawn over the politics of some games (BioShock, MGS), ignore it in others (TWO, TD) and then rage when it is a specific kind of politics that they don't like (Celeste, ME:A), you're definitely a sucker if you keep on believing them. It is not random when they don't want politics and the pattern is not hard to see.
Yea, I know what a lot of the culture war people are referring to in current times about politics. I still think it’s a loud minority of people that get too much attention when they start yelling about it from the media.

Right now it’s a constant action / reaction relationship and social media exasperates it all.
 

Satinavian

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When i look for articles about games, i most of the time want to know, if the game would be fun for me to play. Politics is usually secondary at best. If it is as prominent as in Bioshock, it might warrant two sentences or so, but otherwise i am usually not that interested in the politics of a game.

If one wants to write an article about the politics of a game, that belongs into the title. I might read it, if i am already invested in that game and know about its content, maybe have played it. But it is not what i would be looking for when i google the game.

One example would be BT and how it handles gender. The game is certainly not wrong for it, it is a nice little flavor addition. But it is also completely inconsequential for the actual gameplay. And when a review manages to spend a whole paragraph on it and another one on the races/genders of the NPCs and then on the crowdfundig cameos while being pretty short gameplay details, i would judge that article a failure as review.

I have never in my whole life bought a game for its politics.


As for the games. When i read about "politics in games" in tend to think Bioshock ot maybe how the treatment of China in Paradox' grand strategy games is linked to the question if they get banned there or not. But it would never have crossed my mind that it means "how big are Tifas boobs". But then again i am not on Twitter.


Censorship is an issue however. Especcially as publishers tend to follow the sensibilities of certain countries over others. But compared to other media it is not much of an issue nowadays.
 
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Elfgore

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If the difference between "pushing your politics" and "not pushing your politics" is changing one phrase, then how political is it, really? How much 'politics' can a single phrase "inject" into a sentence, if the meaning stays the same? What's the difference between "corporate overlords" and "the publisher" that makes one political and not the other?
The blatant meaning of the former? It immediately puts his view of publishers as bad. The only way I know if he dislikes them using "the publisher" is if the connotation changes it.
This is one thing that has seriously annoyed me: Gamers have been whining for years "video games are art just like any other medium; they deserve respect", but the instant people start examining games from a political angle- y'know, like has been done for every other medium since time immemorial- those very same gamers whine "it's just a video game; don't take it so seriously". It's a classic case of wanting to have their cake and eat it too, and it exposes the fact that those gamers just want to stop being called "children" for playing games but don't want any actual adult criticism of their hobby.
This is just the answer. Maybe add a little bit of... product identity(?). "You c
The fact that you don't see the attempts to "propagandize and shove [particular beliefs] down your throat" that exist in MGS and Bioshock is rather worrying and not a great indicator for your grasp of this topic; those games aren't exactly subtle with them. It also shows how the "stop trying to influence my beliefs" line really just boils down to yet another form of "don't say things I disagree with."
People not getting BioShock, MGS, or Fallout is probably one of the most enjoyable parts from internet gaming culture. "Liberty Prime is amazing, fuck the commies!" Meanwhile, the weapon of mass destruction throwing, propaganda spouting, death robot kinda just whiffed on by.
 
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BrawlMan

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"Politics" for the "keep politics out" crowd means social justice. It is a dog whistle that everyone understands at this point. "Politics" is a black woman as an important NPC (or even worse, the PC), it is making a party companion an asexual woman, or two seconds of screen time for a transgender flag in the corner of the screen. "Politics" is decreasing the size of a female NPCs breasts in the remake of a game that's 23 years old or changing the short skirt of the female PC to a pair of skorts in the remake of a 21 year old game. "Politics" is not geo-politics, traditional political ideologies or even warfare.

It is telling that the "keep politics out" crowd was fine with the heavy handed anti-capitalism message that is every second of The Outer Worlds, yet they balked at Parvati being asexual and having a sidequest involving a romance between two women. It is equally telling that they don't bat an eye at the weird American jingoism (made by Swedes) that is the Division 2 or the fetishization of the military that's Ghost Recon: Wildlands/Breakpoint but are ready to boycott the remake of FFVII because Tifa has smaller boobs and more clothes or rage against Celeste because a trans-flag showed up as an easter egg for two seconds.
You know the Joker's, "Nobody panics when things go according to plan. Even if the plan is horrifying."? Yeah, there are some truths to that. These are some of the same people who claimed people of color/women never fought in WWI or WWII or claimed they were minor exception. They never picked up a history book in their life, and get info from either TV, movies, or their racist relatives. Shows how dumb they actually are.

People not getting BioShock, MGS, or Fallout is probably one of the most enjoyable parts from internet gaming culture. "Liberty Prime is amazing, fuck the commies!" Meanwhile, the weapon of mass destruction throwing, propaganda spouting, death robot kinda just whiffed on by
We call that the misaimed fandom crowd. There are idiotic fans that want the Big Boss's Soldier's Paradise, or Armstong's survival of the fittest USA. Most of them would not make past the first day, if it were to happen.

Yea, I know what a lot of the culture war people are referring to in current times about politics. I still think it’s a loud minority of people that get too much attention when they start yelling about it from the media.

Right now it’s a constant action / reaction relationship and social media exasperates it all.
I've was always weary of Twitter. It's nothing more than glorified chat room everyone can see. I kinda predicted this. I know there are good people on twitter

When i look for articles about games, i most of the time want to know, if the game would be fun for me to play.
That used to be the case, but around 2012/13 a lot of reviewers were forgetting this. Or docking points because of fan-service, sexual content, or the game does not have enough female characters. Basically, nothing related to gameplay. They kinda backed off from this, but it's still noticeable. I am not crazy in to fan-service, but as long as the game is fun, I don't care. Not every game needs titillating fan-service, I agree. But when you start docking points that have nothing to do with gameplay, the person in question comes off as petty.

Speaking of difficulty, I never mind easier or harder modes in any game, as long as there is proper balance between Easy, Normal, Hard, or whatever harder difficulties the games' in question have. If there is no easy mode, then it's usually not a big deal. The Souls games or Souls style games do not work for me, so it's a non-issue regardless. But when you start complaining about an Easy mode being too easy (when it's there for people who just want to enjoy the story), you have issues. Either bump up the difficulty, or shut up and continue on easy mode. You can't have it both ways. From what I've seen, most gamers are getting through Normal mode just fine. I know some games have an challenging Easy Mode, but that is a rare exception, and the game is usually balls-busting hard to start.

Another thing, some RE fans were complaing abour RE3Remake being too easy on Normal or Hardcore. I found this ridiculous. Yes, the two modes are easier compared to RE2Remake, but both modes were challenging for me on a first time playthrough. I died 7 times on Normal (almost the same as my first play of RE2), and died once on Hardcore (RE2 Hardcore I died 6 times). Now, not all, but some fans are complaining that Nightmare and Inferno are too difficult. You just can't win with everyone. The ones complaing, you wanted a harder mode, you got it. No point in bitching.
 
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Houseman

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The fact that you don't see the attempts to "propagandize and shove [particular beliefs] down your throat" that exist in MGS and Bioshock
Such as?

It's also been, like, a decade since I've played MGS 1-3, so forgive me if my memory is a little hazy. I've never played Bioshock 1,2 but I have played Infinite.
 

Worgen

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Whatever, just wash your hands.
Or, it could be as Nick said: By saying "keep politics out" they mean "keep propaganda out/stop trying to influence my beliefs". That way, we give the benefit of the doubt to everyone and we don't have to accuse anybody of having double standards.

Do you have any reason to believe that they don't really mean "stop trying to influence my beliefs"? It seems consistent with what we've seen.

Nobody (any by that I mean gamers, not 'journalists' writing clickbait) had a problem with the MGS games and their commentary on war and censorship. Nobody had a problem with Bioshock's politics. Is that because everybody just coincidentally agreed with the political messages of these games? Or is it because these games didn't try to propagandize and shove a particular belief down your throat?

On the one hand, we have evidence of how games are treated when they don't propagandize. This is giving the benefit of the doubt and would cost you nothing. On the other hand, you have your personal anecdote on how politics you agree with don't "pop out" at you, and Jim Sterling's video (which I admit I haven't watched). This is assuming bad faith and can be seen as an insult.

Which seems more likely to you?
Well, the problem with that is the difference between "keep politics out" and "keep propaganda out" is kinda meaningless on its own. Because what is the difference between them? Is a game with a female main character a "political statement" or "feminist propaganda?" It can really come down to how the viewer sees it. I mean when it came out that Tracer and Solder 76 were gay there was a lot of backlash from people wanting politics kept out of games.

I think both those game series had the benefit of coming out before the... schism that started around 2013 or so. If those came out after, at least Bioshock probably would have seen much more backlash, MGS... probably not, the plots of those games tend to be rather wacky.

Sterling actually goes over that in this video, which is mainly about the difference between what the audience says it wants, and what actually gets views.
But you should check out his politics of Darksouls video, its really good and an interesting take.
 
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09philj

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Such as?

It's also been, like, a decade since I've played MGS 1-3, so forgive me if my memory is a little hazy. I've never played Bioshock 1,2 but I have played Infinite.
Bioshock 1 is a game with a very clear thesis statement; that Objectivism is fucking shit. The ideology of Rapture directly led to it's downfall as the hideous wealth inequality led to the civil war which collapsed the city.

Bioshock Infinite ended up a bit muddled but it's definitely strongly criticising the white patriotic evangelical tradition of the US, but also the propensity of revolutions to devolve into meaningless atrocities. (Although the latter part was not very well written or communicated.)
 
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Worgen

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Whatever, just wash your hands.
I am careful. Nobody else misinterpreted what I've been saying. How else could have meant it? Dont' assume or project. Nor put words in to other peoples mouths. I've done so before back in my imdb days, and the results ain't pretty. Start paying extra attention and don't assume the worst. I did not assume the worst or put words in to your mouth when reading your posts.
Oh cool, I can easily just pull certainly quotes out, that makes things more readable. Anyway, we don't know that, I'm just the only one that called it out.

That's a no brainer and no duh. I already know everything is subjective when it comes media.They're allowed to like whatever they want. All just said was that the DmC reboot failed to do what it suppose to accomplish and the sales show. DMC5 exists and not DmC 2; that part is an actual fact.
Well, it got good reviews so I'm not sure what your point is beyond it still didn't get the sales they hoped for.

Nope. Reboot Dante fits that attitude better in this case. DmC!Dante is that punk kid that takes himself too seriously, has the "I (pretend I) don't care about anything, so that makes me cool". The asshole that thinks he's everything and a bag of chips. Dante, no matter the version (other than 2 & anime), knows how to make fun of himself. DmC!Dante is just a worse version of Nero and DMC3!Dante. DmC should have been its own game or spin-off (exactly like DMC1 and RE4), because the name did not live up to the legacy. DmC!Dante I barely tolerate now, but before 2016, I could not stand him. The only characters I like were Kat, Phineas, and Bob Barbas. Mundus was generic, bald, evil Bruce Willis combined with Kingpin, Areus, and Arkham. With none of the otherworldly, eldritch, threat that was the original. Lilith was a waste of space and uninteresting, and I hate DmC!Vergil more than DmC!Dante. DmC should have either been a spin-off with Nero or a different demon hunter. Or a completely different name. Call it Limbo City and be done with it. Definitely would have fared better.
This is a reason I wanted a different series to talk about. I beat Devil May Cry over 10 years ago and I don't remember much, I remember Dante's attitude and it still seems like it was fairly in like with DmC, he just developed more as a character since then.

I have emotional investments to a lot of series. DMC just happens to be one of them.
Then lets change series to something else.
 

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Bioshock 1 is a game with a very clear thesis statement; that Objectivism is fucking shit. The ideology of Rapture directly led to it's downfall as the hideous wealth inequality led to the civil war which collapsed the city.

Bioshock Infinite ended up a bit muddled but it's definitely strongly criticising the white patriotic evangelical tradition of the US, but also the propensity of revolutions to devolve into meaningless atrocities. (Although the latter part was not very well written or communicated.)
I think why games like Bioshock and MGS work so well though with the political thesis is that it's fun, and the themes are baked right into the world and story, it feels natural and not forced. But, before you jump on the "forced" thing, cause I know how that might read, those games were released in a different time where games weren't really marketed around their political aspects like they are now.

Bioshock was marketed as a fallen utopia, but it's not until you get into the game that you're introduced to the social class elements and it's just so naturally a part of that world and in its story. I think there's room for both types of games obviously, like Not Tonight is a clear political message of a game about Brexit, but Bioshock uses those themes behind a interesting world with a sci-fi story.

And again, I think a lot of people love that kind of stuff in general. But politics has become such a buzzword with the press at this point and a lot of articles are written up for the sole purpose of drumming up outrage. People are much, MUCH more sensitive to it now than they were when it was just naturally a part of the game, and if you wanted to experience at its base level, that was fine, or if you wanted to really pay attention and think about its core themes, you could do that too.

Not saying you couldn't do that now too, but I mean, a kid playing Fornite and shooting other people with guns probably isn't think about anything other than winning a match, while someone writing an article about politics in games is probably thinking about 2nd Amendment rights lol.
 
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Worgen

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Whatever, just wash your hands.
If they’d truly been following the lore, then they simply chose to ignore what should’ve been pretty obvious. Maybe it was the fact he blatantly stated it as such that ruffled the feathers of those who “don’t want politics in my games”, but it reveals the fragile nature of how we perceive entertainment and how we draw our own limits around what it could or should mean.

The irony would be it is ultimately just entertainment, yet how much would those people’s attitudes differ from Lord Gwyn’s if given the choice.


*edit* it’s so nice being able to edit without ?’s replacing all the apostrophes now.
People have a habit of having an easy time either not seeing the politics of something or even interpreting a different meaning from what can be a pretty blunt message. It's like how Marco Rubio says he loves Killuminati by Tupac and N.W.A.'s Straight Outta Compton, but thinks rap shouldn't be political.
 

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Well, the problem with that is the difference between "keep politics out" and "keep propaganda out" is kinda meaningless on its own. Because what is the difference between them?
Propaganda tries to force belief in something, and leaves no room for making up your own mind. It doesn't give you the evidence, it just demands that you believe. It tells you "this is what you should believe. Everything else is wrong. Trust me". For example, trying to show any nation as a wonderful perfect place without mention of the flaws. Kind of like how Tom Clancy books are all "America can do no wrong. Our enemies are just horrible people who love killing innocent civilians and hate Americans, specifically, but just trust us on that because we're not going to examine their motivations at all".

I actually felt insulted the last time I read a Tom Clancy book because of how little time they spent on the motivations of the antagonist. It was actually just the narrator saying "He was a fanatic. He hated Americans", and that was it. No explanation why. That's propaganda.

To include "politics" in a game would mean viewing an issue from multiple sides, where you can see why people might come to different beliefs about a subject. At the very least, it'd be a fair and nuanced criticism, as opposed to "this is just wrong". These are things that propaganda would never do.

For example, in a certain metal gear game, the antagonist is all about survival of the fittest. The cutscenes before, during, and after the fight are all about the guy explaining how he wants to create a war to burn America to the ground so that a new breed of stronger people can come out the other side. When the protagonist wins, the antagonist says "See? I was right. You were stronger, so your will gets to remain while mine dies off". So does that mean the antagonist is right? If he had carried out his plan, would it have worked out for the better? Since this was averted, would the problems of America continue to fester, like he had forseen? Those questions remain unanswered. It allows the player to make up their own mind. That's politics, as opposed to propaganda.


But you should check out his politics of Darksouls video, its really good and an interesting take.
I watched a bit of it, maybe up to the half-way point, and I think this actually supports my point. The choice to uphold the "status-quo" at the benefit of the ruling class (Gwyn and the gods) and to the detriment of your people "the age of man" is presented as just that. A choice. You could choose to either do it or not. The game doesn't try to force that there's one right answer. Giving the player a choice is a way to keep something from being "propaganda".

I mean when it came out that Tracer and Solder 76 were gay there was a lot of backlash from people wanting politics kept out of games.
I think when evaluating the inclusion of politics in games, one should think about whether or not the inclusion serves the narrative in any way. Does this inclusion matter? Does it enhance the narrative? Is it necessary to the plot? If it doesn't, it might be seen as an annoying attempt to shove a belief down a throat.

For these examples, no, I don't think it matters, nor does it enhance the narrative, nor is it necessary to the plot. If you didn't pay attention to the lore (that you have to watch youtube videos and read comics to understand), you'd have no clue. So why was it included?

Why did the Harry Potter author try to make one of the characters black, and another gay, years after the books had been written and the lore had been established? Same thing.

Bioshock 1 is a game with a very clear thesis statement; that Objectivism is fucking shit. The ideology of Rapture directly led to it's downfall as the hideous wealth inequality led to the civil war which collapsed the city.
Just because an ideology is criticized, it doesn't make it propaganda. The fact that you know what led to the downfall of Rapture is proof that this is good criticism. It's not just "This is what you should believe, just trust us, we won't bother going into why".

Like I said above, just now: Propaganda tries to force belief in something, and leaves no room for making up your own mind. It doesn't give you the evidence, it just demands that you believe. It tells you "this is what you should believe. Everything else is wrong. Trust me".



Then they should say what they mean (and mean what they say). Besides, what is the point of having a discussion on anything if everybody's forbidden from saying something someone else disagrees with? The whole "keep politics out"-argument overwhelmingly means "keep post-modern status quo criticism out" (as in feminism, GLBTQ and social justice).
So you refuse to give people the benefit of the doubt and rephrase "politics" to "propaganda", because "they should say what the mean and mean what they say"?
Fair enough, but then, instead of just taking people at their word and leaving it at "politics" you want to rephrase it to "post-modern status quo criticism"?

We can't have a discussion if we can't agree on the terms being used, and we really can't if we're redefining those terms to paint the "other side" in a bad light. That's like imposing a handicap.
 
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