#Boycottgenshin and #Boycottgenshinimpact start trending on twitter but not over lootboxes or monetisation

TheMysteriousGX

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1 does, but as the thing becomes canon as such then it becomes an expectation to deal with that outside of the specific use and can and will cause arguments.

Also from what I've been hearing the present incarnation of the magic wheelchair is knda game breaking. Like traps don't trigger for it and it has high toughness + magic resistance or something.
Oh no, something in D&D might be overpowered in specific white-room simulations, let me fetch my fainting couch, which I left next to my summoning druids and chain-trip fighters.
Do you have any specific knowledge of any of this at all? Like, it's slippery slopes all the way down and yet the worst case scenario is that the "canon" of a game changes. A "canon" which you've already claimed does not matter. Why are you fighting changes that you believe do not matter?
People pushing to have an impact and have their desires be made real. In some media it's getting it to become canon for some it goes further and they want it to be real life and have that power over real life too.
True of literally anything, including the people trying to prevent these changes. Not an argument
More be careful who you listen to. Why you listen to them and don't just do it to appease people or a happy clappy feel good thing.
True of literally anything, including the people trying to prevent these changes. Not an argument.

It's like you've never been in an edition war, the thing that literally always happens
 

Dwarvenhobble

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Oh no, something in D&D might be overpowered in specific white-room simulations, let me fetch my fainting couch, which I left next to my summoning druids and chain-trip fighters.
Do you have any specific knowledge of any of this at all? Like, it's slippery slopes all the way down and yet the worst case scenario is that the "canon" of a game changes. A "canon" which you've already claimed does not matter. Why are you fighting changes that you believe do not matter?
More like the combat wheelchair on paper without modification offers better stuff than most other classes and protection from a lot of traps.
"Why fight the changes?"
Because it now pushes the DM to have to deal with more crap rather than go "Well you chose this you figure it out mr player"

True of literally anything, including the people trying to prevent these changes. Not an argument
Yet the people opposing this aren't the ones sending real life actors death threats and spurious malicious lies trying to break up relationships for their own selfish desires.......

It's like you've never been in an edition war, the thing that literally always happens
Except now the edition war is becoming more of an case of feel good changes that aren't as thought out vs previously stat changes to attempt to balance things and bringing in new spells (and often not quite balancing them right).

I just realized that The Gamers™️ are worried that the Socialist SJWs are going to infest the Socialist Chinese game with their Western Socialist SJW values and I need to go lie down for a bit.
I mean no-one want both of the commie groups to join together on the same page they're bad enough as solo groups already.
 

Eacaraxe

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Of course, goblin folklore also doesn't generally describe them as hook nosed and gold obsessed. Until you get to more modern interpretations.
You're confusing cause and effect, and conflating several different issues. "Goblins" arose from a mish-mash of pan-European mythologies that share similar characteristics, those being a materialistic and greedy trickster spirit. Given the cultural groups that share this myth, its deviations, and the shared cultural predecessors of those cultural groups, it likely originated in Urnfield or Hallstatt culture -- an assertion that admittedly cannot be proven because we basically know fuck-all about either. That's about a thousand years prior to the destruction of the Second Temple and Jerusalem in 70 CE, which is as definitive an event as you're going to get for the start of the Hebrew diaspora.

However...

The chief issue you're raising originates from around the 14th Century, when European Catholics decided to attribute the characteristics of this mythical creature to Jews (or perhaps more pointedly, as far as they were concerned vice versa), tying it into blood libel and all that. And that hybridization is what still exists today.

So, is it "an antisemitic trope"? Yes and no. The myth predates the arrival of the Jewish diaspora in Europe, and likely predates the end of the Second Temple era entirely. But, the myth was weaponized to disparage European Jews in the Medieval era all the way through to the Modern era. But, that's not the question we should be aiming to answer here.

What is, is "is it necessarily an antisemitic trope?". That is to say, is it impossible to discuss or employ this myth without raising the spectre of antisemitism. The answer to that, in my opinion, is "no".
 

TheMysteriousGX

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What is, is "is it necessarily an antisemitic trope?". That is to say, is it impossible to discuss or employ this myth without raising the spectre of antisemitism. The answer to that, in my opinion, is "no".
Agreed. Goblins, in and of themselves, aren't inherently antisemitic. Huge nosed, gold living goblins that run the banks, though...

Might not have been Rowling's intent, but it certainly rhymes.
 

TheMysteriousGX

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More like the combat wheelchair on paper without modification offers better stuff than most other classes and protection from a lot of traps.
"Why fight the changes?"
Because it now pushes the DM to have to deal with more crap rather than go "Well you chose this you figure it out mr player"
The combat wheelchair doesn't give a character any advantages that a character with functional legs doesn't get. It's a fan-made supplement that makes it so the DM *doesn't* have to come up with more rules. And now there's one adventure out of 17 in a supplement that doesn't have stairs. Turns out, when people like you say "just make your own" often enough, somebody actually *does* and it's still somehow categorically unacceptable

Oh God, the horror those SJWs are wreaking. How come only they have to ignore "canon" and make up their own stuff? Why don't you practice what you preach?

Yet the people opposing this aren't the ones sending real life actors death threats and spurious malicious lies trying to break up relationships for their own selfish desires.......
John Boyega faced abuse for being a black stormtrooper and "fans" bullied Kelly Marie Tran off social media with death and rape threats. I'd be interested in seeing the Venn diagram
Except now the edition war is becoming more of an case of feel good changes that aren't as thought out vs previously stat changes to attempt to balance things and bringing in new spells (and often not quite balancing them right).
Yes, the true death of D&D started with #NotAllOrcs.
 
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Eacaraxe

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Agreed. Goblins, in and of themselves, aren't inherently antisemitic. Huge nosed, gold living goblins that run the banks, though...

Might not have been Rowling's intent, but it certainly rhymes.
No, it was 100% Rowling's intent. You're leaving out the other half of that story.

The wizarding world hated and feared them for no good reason. Wizards generally refused to understand them, made no attempt to respect them, unilaterally deemed themselves culturally and morally superior to them, and demanded goblins assimilate to cater to their demands rather than the other way around. Which meant goblins were a hated, feared, and thoroughly oppressed group within the wizarding world, while wizarding society was were paradoxically and hypocritically reliant on them to function on even a basic level.

In other words, it was the exact relationship European gentiles had to European Jews throughout the entirety of the Medieval period. This relationship was framed within the context of Rowling's writings as fundamentally unjust, with wizards bearing final responsibility for that unjust state of affairs. And, that goblins ought to be accepted for who they are, and their culture understood and respected, in order for them to be considered equals in a just, pluralist, society.

This is the exact problem with the line of reasoning you're employing. You cannot look at the invocation of racial stereotypes in a given work of fiction in a vacuum; it must be examined in the context of the greater work itself in order to ascertain what social commentary, if any, is being made. Yeah, absolutely, no shit Rowling was invoking Jewish stereotypes in her depiction of goblins.

She was invoking those stereotypes to attack them, and by extension, antisemitism.
 

TheMysteriousGX

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No, it was 100% Rowling's intent. You're leaving out the other half of that story.

The wizarding world hated and feared them for no good reason. Wizards generally refused to understand them, made no attempt to respect them, unilaterally deemed themselves culturally and morally superior to them, and demanded goblins assimilate to cater to their demands rather than the other way around. Which meant goblins were a hated, feared, and thoroughly oppressed group within the wizarding world, while wizarding society was were paradoxically and hypocritically reliant on them to function on even a basic level.

In other words, it was the exact relationship European gentiles had to European Jews throughout the entirety of the Medieval period. This relationship was framed within the context of Rowling's writings as fundamentally unjust, with wizards bearing final responsibility for that unjust state of affairs. And, that goblins ought to be accepted for who they are, and their culture understood and respected, in order for them to be considered equals in a just, pluralist, society.

This is the exact problem with the line of reasoning you're employing. You cannot look at the invocation of racial stereotypes in a given work of fiction in a vacuum; it must be examined in the context of the greater work itself in order to ascertain what social commentary, if any, is being made. Yeah, absolutely, no shit Rowling was invoking Jewish stereotypes in her depiction of goblins.

She was invoking those stereotypes to attack them, and by extension, antisemitism.
Don't seem to recall that from the movie, but I didn't watch the later ones.

One thing I've picked up on though: even if you're attacking a trope, maybe don't directly compare a group of people to their stereotyped monster form? Well meaning as I may be, if I use a group of monkeys as a stand in for why racism against black people is bad, I can and probably should be roasted to hell and back.
 
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Dwarvenhobble

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The combat wheelchair doesn't give a character any advantages that a character with functional legs doesn't get. It's a fan-made supplement that makes it so the DM *doesn't* have to come up with more rules. And now there's one adventure out of 17 in a supplement that doesn't have stairs. Turns out, when people like you say "just make your own" often enough, somebody actually *does* and it's still somehow categorically unacceptable
Yes they did make their own.
Then said they wanted it to be recognised

Which goes back round to everything we've been talking about and the issues with it.

I mean take Reylos for example who are still pushing the whole bring back Ben Solo thing so hard they ended up harassing Star Wars social media manager off her personal social media accounts.

Also does it really count as "Make your own thing" when it's an already existing property having peoples demanded changes hammered into it?


Oh God, the horror those SJWs are wreaking. How come only they have to ignore "canon" and make up their own stuff? Why don't you practice what you preach?
Because in the end you can't include everyone without creating a compromised experience for all and that is ultimately the flaw with the ideology pushing for many of the changes.

John Boyega faced abuse for being a black stormtrooper and "fans" bullied Kelly Marie Tran off social media with death and rape threats. I'd be interested in seeing the Venn diagram
And yet the actor behind Jar Jar was harassed and bullied by people who saw him as portraying and offensive stereotype. With Jelly Marie Tran we may never truly know who was behind it but who knows maybe it was some Rinn Shippers or is it Fey shippers.

Yes, the true death of D&D started with #NotAllOrcs.
Not the start just an escalation it would seem

Don't seem to recall that from the movie, but I didn't watch the later ones.

One thing I've picked up on though: even if you're attacking a trope, maybe don't directly compare a group of people to their stereotyped monster form? Well meaning as I may be, if I use a group of monkeys as a stand in for why racism against black people is bad, I can and probably should be roasted to hell and back.
The movies missed a fair bit out though I don't think it was shown that much in the book though the stuff about the descriptions of the fountain in the Ministry of Magic kind of hinted rather strongly about it.
 

Gergar12

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Why does Twitter love to virtue signal? For one thing, we haven't even gotten to the other regions, and it's basically China and Germany. 2 I always assumed hillichurls were based on caveman, and 3 if anything here's what I would protest
  1. Pay to play, win, etc.
  2. Lack of permanent content
  3. Lack of enemy diversity
  4. Putting Barbara, and Xiangling on every banner.
  5. Lack of pity on weapon draws
 

Dwarvenhobble

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Why does Twitter love to virtue signal?
It's a platform that rewards hot takes and knee jerk reactions and "feel good" moves. Add that to the fact people from Tumblr migrated to it and the platform now has people who want to seem to be revealing the truth or feeling they're doing good even if they're not. On Tumblr there was regular stuff about Mass slave graves being found or similar only for it to turn out the OP in most cases has deliberately taken screencaps from shows like Bones or other shows and added a fake story all because they wanted to be seen as the one exposing injustice and to be praised for doing so. It was predicated on people not bothering to check the stories or claims and just sharing them thinking they were doing good.
 

Eacaraxe

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Don't seem to recall that from the movie, but I didn't watch the later ones.
That would be why. It's not a huge plot point until the last two or three books/films, and doesn't get "mallet to the face" levels of subtle until the last.

One thing I've picked up on though: even if you're attacking a trope, maybe don't directly compare a group of people to their stereotyped monster form? Well meaning as I may be, if I use a group of monkeys as a stand in for why racism against black people is bad, I can and probably should be roasted to hell and back.
maxresdefault.jpg

As in, literally. Rod Serling wrote the original with that exact racial stereotype in mind.
 

Hawki

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You're confusing cause and effect, and conflating several different issues. "Goblins" arose from a mish-mash of pan-European mythologies that share similar characteristics, those being a materialistic and greedy trickster spirit. Given the cultural groups that share this myth, its deviations, and the shared cultural predecessors of those cultural groups, it likely originated in Urnfield or Hallstatt culture -- an assertion that admittedly cannot be proven because we basically know fuck-all about either. That's about a thousand years prior to the destruction of the Second Temple and Jerusalem in 70 CE, which is as definitive an event as you're going to get for the start of the Hebrew diaspora.
Thanks for the history lesson.

(No, that isn't sarcasm.)

is it impossible to discuss or employ this myth without raising the spectre of antisemitism. The answer to that, in my opinion, is "no".
That, however, I'll have to disagree with.

Personal arguments aside, I'm only going to have to appeal to "the masses" here. "Hook-nosed goblin who loves gold" is such a common trope, yet accusations of anti-semitism haven't followed universally from them.

No, it was 100% Rowling's intent. You're leaving out the other half of that story.

The wizarding world hated and feared them for no good reason. Wizards generally refused to understand them, made no attempt to respect them, unilaterally deemed themselves culturally and morally superior to them, and demanded goblins assimilate to cater to their demands rather than the other way around. Which meant goblins were a hated, feared, and thoroughly oppressed group within the wizarding world, while wizarding society was were paradoxically and hypocritically reliant on them to function on even a basic level.

In other words, it was the exact relationship European gentiles had to European Jews throughout the entirety of the Medieval period. This relationship was framed within the context of Rowling's writings as fundamentally unjust, with wizards bearing final responsibility for that unjust state of affairs. And, that goblins ought to be accepted for who they are, and their culture understood and respected, in order for them to be considered equals in a just, pluralist, society.

This is the exact problem with the line of reasoning you're employing. You cannot look at the invocation of racial stereotypes in a given work of fiction in a vacuum; it must be examined in the context of the greater work itself in order to ascertain what social commentary, if any, is being made. Yeah, absolutely, no shit Rowling was invoking Jewish stereotypes in her depiction of goblins.

She was invoking those stereotypes to attack them, and by extension, antisemitism.
I'm really not sure about that.

The HP books absolutely invoke anti-semitic imagery within them - see the seventh book and the Ministry-issued books on Muggles/Muggle-borns. That, and the concept of "pure-bloods"/"blood-supremacy" is basically the Wizarding World's own version of racism (probably classism as well).

However, if we're discussing the goblins themselves, I'm not sure it holds up. On one hand, there's a brilliant line from Dumbledore in Book 5 that goes (roughly) "the fountain told a lie. We wizards have mistreated our fellow magical creatures for too long, and now we're paying the price for it." So yes, the books are aware that if you act like shit to certain groups, those groups might bite you back (in the case of the Dementors, nearly literally).

However, discussing goblins themselves, the books come off as far-less sympathetic. I checked the wiki to make sure, and for starters, here's a quote:

We are talking about a different breed of being. Dealings between wizards and goblins have been fraught for centuries ... There has been fault on both sides, I would never claim that wizards have been innocent. However, there is a belief among some goblins, and those at Gringotts are perhaps most prone to it, that wizards cannot be trusted in matters of gold and treasure, that they have no respect for goblin ownership


Griphook ends up being a villain in the seventh book. This, and the no. of goblin rebellions that occur. Now, the books never really go into the details of these rebellions, but if we're using Griphook as proxy, the books are more neutral on the wizard-goblin thing. There's no equivalent of SPEW for the goblins for instance, even though the house elves at large are happy with their condition.

Don't seem to recall that from the movie, but I didn't watch the later ones.
It's in the books.

Shock of all shocks, the movies don't go into nearly as much detail as the books, to the extent that some plot points don't make sense, or are severely butchered (the whole prophecy thing going from subversion/tragedy/self-fulfilling prophecy in the books to "you're the special" in the films).

And yet the actor behind Jar Jar was harassed and bullied by people who saw him as portraying and offensive stereotype. With Jelly Marie Tran we may never truly know who was behind it but who knows maybe it was some Rinn Shippers or is it Fey shippers.
No, I'm pretty sure Tran was hounded off social-media because of racists, and the whole idea that her presence was based on "forced diversity." Doesn't help that Rose arguably isn't the best character in the world, but none of that excuses it.

No-one does, be it Best, or Lloyd, or even George himself.
 
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TheMysteriousGX

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View attachment 3601

As in, literally. Rod Serling wrote the original with that exact racial stereotype in mind.
Like, I knew it explored the idea of racism, but I didn't catch the specific racial component. Probably because I'm not nearly as clever as Rod Serling and the apes didn't exactly have stereotypically "black" traits (according to my white Montanan child brain, anyway)
 

TheMysteriousGX

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Yes they did make their own.
Then said they wanted it to be recognised

Which goes back round to everything we've been talking about and the issues with it.

I mean take Reylos for example who are still pushing the whole bring back Ben Solo thing so hard they ended up harassing Star Wars social media manager off her personal social media accounts.
How's it like living in a world where everybody with any opinion you don't like all belong to the same gestalt group responsible for everything "bad"?

Like, I didn't figure that the Reylos were the ones pushing for sentient creatures in D&D to not have set alignments and then wrote one adventure out of a book of 17 to have a wheelchair accessible dungeon for their fan-made battle wheel chair while also pushing for Mihoyo to do better on the representation front while simultaneously harassing Game of Thrones actors.

Still tho, if you don't like those D&D rules, follow your own advice and change the canon in your games! Don't let your players use the wheelchair if their characters get crippled. Have all the Orcs be chaotic evil primitives with no exception. Exercise some of your own advice

Thank you for reminding me of the inanity that led you to be put on my ignore list in the first place.
 

Dwarvenhobble

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How's it like living in a world where everybody with any opinion you don't like all belong to the same gestalt group responsible for everything "bad"?

Like, I didn't figure that the Reylos were the ones pushing for sentient creatures in D&D to not have set alignments and then wrote one adventure out of a book of 17 to have a wheelchair accessible dungeon for their fan-made battle wheel chair while also pushing for Mihoyo to do better on the representation front while simultaneously harassing Game of Thrones actors.

Still tho, if you don't like those D&D rules, follow your own advice and change the canon in your games! Don't let your players use the wheelchair if their characters get crippled. Have all the Orcs be chaotic evil primitives with no exception. Exercise some of your own advice

Thank you for reminding me of the inanity that led you to be put on my ignore list in the first place.
I don't know, cause that's not what I've said.
Based on some of your posting though, how is it living in that world?

I only showed similarities in the actions said groups seem to take not that they're the same groups as shippers are quite a big fandom group often subdivided a lot with some of those divisions having weird kinda Nazi esc fetishism to them (and by that I mean Ilsa, She Wolf of the SS with the genders reversed stuff) I mean how true it is but there may or may not be some SnowBarry shippers who very much do fall into certain ideologies because Iris in the Flash series in Black.

Nice to know I'm going back on ze list though guess I challenged your world view a bit too much for comfort
 

Eacaraxe

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Griphook ends up being a villain in the seventh book.
I'd argue he doesn't; in my opinion, he's more a tragic figure who was undone by his own...let's call it accidental genre-savviness.

Griphook was responsible for the fake sword being locked away in Bellatrix's vault, and did aid Harry and company in the theft of Hufflepuff's cup from the bank in exchange for a promise from Harry the real sword be returned to the goblins once Voldemort had been dealt with. Which was a promise Harry couldn't make, and never should have, because Harry was damn well aware of the sword's magical properties by that point. Griphook was absolutely right not to trust Harry, because the damn sword would have magicked itself right back away the moment some wizard who belonged to the right arbitrary social clique as predetermined by a stupid fucking hat, needed to whack some kind of fart-beast from terrorizing the Gryffindor dormitory's shitter or some equally vapid task.

That's why he absconded with it, for all the good it did him. And later, when Griphook was brought before Voldemort for his role in the theft of Hufflepuff's cup, the other goblins were the ones who sold him out -- because to them he was a traitor, because he betrayed the good faith of the bank regardless of why.

There's no equivalent of SPEW for the goblins for instance, even though the house elves at large are happy with their condition.
That's why Griphook decided to help Harry, Hermione, and Ron in the first place.

Like, I knew it explored the idea of racism, but I didn't catch the specific racial component. Probably because I'm not nearly as clever as Rod Serling and the apes didn't exactly have stereotypically "black" traits (according to my white Montanan child brain, anyway)
Well, bear in mind the first movie was released in '68. The visuals were more than adequate to convey the message, especially in the context of an inverted scenario as written wherein white people were hunted, oppressed, enslaved, and murdered by the titular apes.
 

TheMysteriousGX

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Well, bear in mind the first movie was released in '68. The visuals were more than adequate to convey the message, especially in the context of an inverted scenario as written wherein white people were hunted, oppressed, enslaved, and murdered by the titular apes.
White people and the black guy, yeah. Hence me missing it.F249E128-C927-48F1-8B69-D3E937B1982A.png

I'm not a terribly observant person. On more than a few occasions, I've missed the implied racism of stories told to me as a kid. Looking back decades later it's like "oh, that's what they meant. I just thought it was a fun myth about why some people were white and some people were black"
 

Dalisclock

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It's a mobile gacha weeb game from China, that should be enough reason for it to be blasted off into space and never to be seen again.
Yeah, when I first read about it, I was like "Breath of the Wild for PC....tell me more" and then I read "Gacha game", at which point I ran out of fucks to give and stopped caring at all.

So that was a fun 30 seconds of interest.

So that's my Hot take and thank you for attending my TED Talk.
 
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