Bill Cosby sex assault conviction overturned by court

CM156

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Not knowing how something would work does not make it impossible.
Yes, and as soon as you come up with a simple system of laws that addresses all the major legal issues that arise in day-to-day life, while allowing people to navigate it without a lawyer, we can critique it on its merits.
 
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Seanchaidh

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Yes, and as soon as you come up with a simple system of laws that addresses all the major legal issues that arise in day-to-day life, while allowing people to navigate it without a lawyer, we can critique it on its merits.
the people best qualified to figure that out have a class interest in preventing that from being done.
 

CM156

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the people best qualified to figure that out have a class interest in preventing that from being done.
You speak so authoritatively in a field of study I'm fairly certain you have no formal education in.
I wonder if there's a term for that.

There are legal scholars of all stripes and ideologies, publishing their ideas either online or in law review articles. The fact that you don't see your idea being pushed has nothing to do with "class interests." It's because your idea is not compatible with reality.

Your statement is difficult to criticize because it's vague. You earn a benefit of the doubt by not making specific proposals that can be criticized by those far more learned than either of us on the topic. Simply put: there will always be those who need trained individuals to speak for them. Maybe this is because they are not capable of defending themselves, or because it's a group that can't have every member acting as a lawyer in a case. Also, if you're going to have professional prosecutors (which is really a universal necessity in a modern age), then laypeople will always be at a disadvantage. No matter how simple you make a system of law, those that do it professionally will always be more skilled than those who don't.
 
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Seanchaidh

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You speak so authoritatively in a field of study I'm fairly certain you have no formal education in.
I wonder if there's a term for that.
I haven't made any legal determinations, offered legal advice, or made use of any particular fact other than some very obvious conclusions about the economics of the legal profession-- namely that there exist jobs that are made valuable by the impenetrability of the law. Maybe you're confused.

There are legal scholars of all stripes and ideologies, publishing their ideas either online or in law review articles. The fact that you don't see your idea being pushed has nothing to do with "class interests." It's because your idea is not compatible with reality.
A class interest is independent of ideology or "stripe". I'm proposing that lawyers would lose their reason to exist and judges, professors of law and so forth would lose substantial prestige and probably income; there is absolutely a relevant class interest.

The fact that you don't see your idea being pushed has nothing to do with "class interests."
No one is proposing that the law be simpler? That seems unlikely, even despite the class interest I've gestured at.

Your statement is difficult to criticize because it's vague.
Authoritative and vague? Not impossible, but seems unlikely in this case that it could be both. Maybe the difficulty you are having is a clue that you shouldn't.

You earn a benefit of the doubt by not making specific proposals that can be criticized by those far more learned than either of us on the topic. Simply put: there will always be those who need trained individuals to speak for them. Maybe this is because they are not capable of defending themselves, or because it's a group that can't have every member acting as a lawyer in a case. Also, if you're going to have professional prosecutors (which is really a universal necessity in a modern age), then laypeople will always be at a disadvantage. No matter how simple you make a system of law, those that do it professionally will always be more skilled than those who don't.
All that suggests is that approaches should curtail the effect of the quality of legal advocacy on the results of legal proceedings. That is something anyone interested in justice should want anyway. A non-adversarial process already does this in comparison to adversarial systems.
 

Eacaraxe

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I don't know if that's quite achievable.
Or even desirable.
We could get most of the way there simply by removing or reducing fees, fines, and penalties for infractions and non-violent misdemeanors. Most of those are simply crutch revenue-generators for county and municipal governments thanks to decades of stripping progressive taxation, grist to the for-profit private incarceration/convict labor mill, and frankly either way punishment for simply being poor. Something like 70% of the prison population vanishes overnight if we decriminalize and expunge non-violent and generally victimless "public order" crime.

That all but eliminates excessive case load on prosecutors' and defenders' offices, then we could start talking funding and resource disparities, regulating prosecutorial discretion, and limitations on plea bargaining. Thus, allowing the justice system to focus upon violent misdemeanors and felony offenses -- what it was supposed to from the beginning, at least until Jim Crow, the proliferation of for-profit convict labor, and the rise of the modern carceral state.

When we start talking about civil court, the first thing that needs to happen is a federal anti-SLAPP statute. Then, strict limitations on forum shopping, abolition of forced arbitration agreements, and restoration of class rights for purposes of certification and when acting as plaintiffs. Following that, maximums on punitive damages awarded by clients and mandatory minimums on forms of injunctive relief with stricter penalties for failing to meet court-mandated standards and orders.

Why yes, I am thinking specifically about the environmental law racket with that statement, thanks for asking.

And of course, stricter standards for malicious and punitive abuse of procedure by litigants, with tighter deadlines and constrained capacity to delay proceedings. Something as simply as making "delay and dump during discovery" grounds for summary judgment or dismissal with prejudice, would go a long way towards a more equitable civil court.

There are legal scholars of all stripes and ideologies, publishing their ideas either online or in law review articles. The fact that you don't see your idea being pushed has nothing to do with "class interests." It's because your idea is not compatible with reality.
This is the result of cross-talking and conflating two different issues. Class interest enters talk about the justice system for the reasons I stated.

But as far as the legal profession itself, and its connections to and interdependence to political systems, the vested interest of those in it lie with maintenance of the status quo. Class interest enters the equation because most attorneys, especially those in more prestigious fields -- and those typically pursued by those looking to enter electoral politics -- are on the better-paid end of the spectrum. Voters love a prosecutor, and a prosecutor elected to public office is never going to act against their own vested interests given a choice in the matter.

I don't really feel as if I need to name drop Kamala Harris here, but I'll do it for posterity's sake.

Yes, there will always be a need for lawyers. However, the state of western liberal democracy is such that lawyers don't just argue law, they're the only ones who write it, and in circumstances under which legal positivism is the dominant theory of law -- meaning underlying principles of justice, legislative intent, and voters' will play woefully small and easily-subverted role in law-making.
 
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Schadrach

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No one is proposing that the law be simpler? That seems unlikely, even despite the class interest I've gestured at.
I'm sure there are plenty who do, but none who think it should be so simple as to reach the point where the average layman can maneuver within it as well as a trained professional, largely because then it isn't comprehensive enough to deal with many (if not most) situations that occur.
 

CM156

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I haven't made any legal determinations, offered legal advice, or made use of any particular fact other than some very obvious conclusions about the economics of the legal profession-- namely that there exist jobs that are made valuable by the impenetrability of the law. Maybe you're confused.
Authoritative and vague? Not impossible, but seems unlikely in this case that it could be both. Maybe the difficulty you are having is a clue that you shouldn't.
You made a statement that not only is a broad and overarching policy possible, but it is desirable. Your statement is both authoritative and vague at the same time. Quite impressive.

No one is proposing that the law be simpler? That seems unlikely, even despite the class interest I've gestured at.
Oh, plenty have proposed the law be made simpler. Just none have proposed that it's possible to make the law so simple that lawyers are not needed.

All that suggests is that approaches should curtail the effect of the quality of legal advocacy on the results of legal proceedings.
Another thing I don't know how exactly you plan on dealing with. Quality of advice will always have a major effect, in this as well as any specialized field.

A non-adversarial process already does this in comparison to adversarial systems.
I've seen non-adversarial procedures in process (in this case, inquisitorial). I'm not impressed.

We could get most of the way there simply by removing or reducing fees, fines, and penalties for infractions and non-violent misdemeanors. -snip[
Thank you for making concrete policy proposals I can respond to.
They also happen to be ones I don't disagree with, so I have no real objections.

Yes, there will always be a need for lawyers. However, the state of western liberal democracy is such that lawyers don't just argue law, they're the only ones who write it, and in circumstances under which legal positivism is the dominant theory of law -- meaning underlying principles of justice, legislative intent, and voters' will play woefully small and easily-subverted role in law-making.
I happen to believe in legal positivism myself, so I don't object to its supposed ascendency.
 

Dirty Hipsters

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Not knowing how something would work does not make it impossible.
Let's have a little thought experiment.

Please write a law outlawing murder. Make it as simple as possible so that anyone with only the most basic education can understand it while also making sure that it's all encompassing of what murder is and is not, and which is also completely non-subjective to prevent unintended misinterpretations.

We all agree that murder is wrong and should be illegal, and there's not a whole lot of gray area when it comes comes to murder right? Have at it.
 
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Seanchaidh

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Please write a law outlawing murder. Make it as simple as possible so that anyone with only the most basic education can understand it while also making sure that it's all encompassing of what murder is and is not, and which is also completely non-subjective to prevent unintended misinterpretations.

We all agree that murder is wrong and should be illegal, and there's not a whole lot of gray area when it comes comes to murder right? Have at it.
*copy pastes existing law*

I'm not sure you could think of a worse example if you tried. How many murders do you think are a result of people being mistaken about the laws surrounding killing of humans? How many are prevented by the existence of lawyers?
 

Dirty Hipsters

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*copy pastes existing law*

I'm not sure you could think of a worse example if you tried. How many murders do you think are a result of people being mistaken about the laws surrounding killing of humans? How many are prevented by the existence of lawyers?
If you think that the existence of lawyers is meant to stop people from breaking the law then I don't think you understand the purpose of lawyers.

Also, if the laws about murder is so easy to understand that you wouldn't change a single thing about any of them to make them easier for a layman to understand then why exactly are lawyers so necessary in cases of self-defense? Why so many arguments about the definitions of murder and manslaughter and their classifications?
 
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Seanchaidh

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Also, if the laws about murder is so easy to understand that you wouldn't change a single thing about any of them to make them easier for a layman to understand then why exactly are lawyers so necessary in cases of self-defense?
trial procedure in an adversarial system is subject to arbitrary and complicated rules for the presentation of cases, examination of witnesses and so on, and most of all the adversary can do whatever the hell they want if you don't know how to properly register an objection to what they are doing. because it is treated as the responsibility of the advocate to call for the enforcement of rules of evidence and so forth.