So are people going to finally admit the shit about the ok hand sign is stupid?

tstorm823

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Where do you find those communists that call Democrats their allies?
Nowhere, when you phrase it that way. No communist is going to say Democrats are their allies, much the same as the far right does not say Republicans are their allies. But a Democrat or a Republican is a different story. Like, Bernie Sanders isn't a communist. A right-wing person might call him a communist as an attack. A communist might say "yes, we do like him, he's popular, therefore we're popular". It's a case-by-case basis, of course, there aren't communists for Joe Manchin that I'm aware of. The far right has the same thing, where honestly most Republicans are resented by the far right, but they embrace some when they get the opportunity to say "yes, we do like him, he's popular, therefore we're popular."
 
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Hawki

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Swastika, Triskelion, Odal rune, Celtic Cross, The double Sig rune, Roman Salute, The Fasces(obv), Roman Standard(Vexillium), shaved head...

Most of it work in context of, or tandem, course. Some have fallen out of fashion. But there's plenty that's been "adopted" over the years.
How many of those bar the Swastika have been irrevocably tained though?
 

Avnger

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How many of those bar the Swastika have been irrevocably tained though?
I would personally say at least the double Sig rune and Roman Salute are irrevocably tained. Even with proper context, there's no avoiding the Nazi associations.
 

Eacaraxe

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O-KKK was never about getting people to sincerely believe that people who used that symbol were white supremacists (even though, let's be real, a lot of them were), it was about getting people to believe that stupid people (people who in most cases were never actually real) believed that. In that regard, it succeeded because people are still perpetrating this weird idea about 4chan psyops owning the libs, when in reality the real trick was getting everyone to stop looking into those unanswered questions.

The fact that we're at the point where literal mass murdering terrorists and full on pro-genocide neo-Nazis are using that symbol to convey their beliefs and people still won't shut up about some sad boys on 4chan is symptomatic of who in this situation is actually gullible.
The point was corporate, sensationalist, hypercapitalist media wags the dog and creates self-fulfilling prophecies about what are and aren't things like hate symbols. It's the national cable news version of ridiculous bullshit "ARE SNAKES HIDING IN POOL NOODLES KILLING YOUR CHILDREN? FIND OUT TONIGHT AT ELEVEN!" stories local news stations yank out of their asses on slow news days.

Especially in the context of the full-blast, record-breaking ratings and profit, full-on three-ring media circus that was the 2016 election, where anything and everything became a political wedge issue dividing good, right-thinking, Americans and full-bore Swastika-kissing Nazis. Every idiot with so much as a Wordpress account trying to get a two-minute talking head segment on MSNBC, was trying to break some massive Watergate-scale story about Trump, the internet, and white supremacy. Ergo, they fabricated and planted a story about the hand symbol being the new AYAK?/AKIA, and some greedy clout-chasing little shits took the bait and ran with it.

Then did actual white supremacists start using it, because they saw the press around it, and being stupid rather than greedy, thought it was legit. Thereby proving the entire point about media creating self-fulfilling prophecies for ratings.
 
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Ender910

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Thank you for that perspective.

I find it interesting, because where is the expectation that we get over something, and something being offensive? The fact you were originally annoyed suggests to me there is at base offence, which you had to learn to deal with. But there are likely to be those who don't, there will always be this little niggle that this an imposition that they have to put up with. Just like in the past black people had to put up with the n- word and women with sexual harassment.

Which is a way of saying that the basic principle we should just deal with it could in theory exist for absolutely anything - including of course terms which this forum itself will censor into asterisks, such as the n- word. Even many people who defend the right to use these terms more freely don't pretend that they aren't deeply offensive, and would not themselves use those terms in polite company for that reason. So what is the point where something potentially offensive is a thing offended individuals just have to deal with, or something it should be some degree of wrong for someone to say?

I don't pretend to have an answer, and as above I'm no paragon of virtue myself on the issue. But when people complain about the censoriousness of progressive busybodies complaining about how they talk, I think those progressives often have a point, because they taking rules about how society already deems it appropriate to talk to/about some people, and extending those principles to other people in a logically consistent way.
I think why it might cause some initial offense sometimes comes in a small little package of even smaller reasons. At least in my case, it was mainly little bits of emotional baggage from growing up. IE, family and educators who overemphasized it and brought it up far more frequently than was necessary, as well as any family drama I had to put up with growing up.

I got over most of that baggage by the time I was more or less able to be my own man. I found what worked for me treatment-wise, and at that point in my life I didn't have as many people bringing it up all the time. It was my own problem to take care of, not someone else's.

Based on that, I think the bottom line was how sometimes people were overly focused on those little traits and forgot to treat you like... you. An actual living and breathing person perfectly capable of taking care of themselves. And in a way, I actually find the... overly protective measures often employed to safeguard people against offense, to actually be not too dissimilar from the kind of special treatment people would often try to hoist on me. I didn't ask for it, didn't necessarily need it, and don't really want it.

Maybe I'd feel differently if I was in a worse place and not quite so "over it", but then, protecting me from offense wouldn't really be of much help to the actual issues I had plaguing me now, would it? Admittedly, I really don't know how I'd feel if people had been actively going out of their way to insult or ridicule me over said labels. Maybe less offended due to the sheer absurdity? Certainly more if my course of treatment options was being systematically targeted and eliminated (which has been something of a growing issue, but more due to cost-cutting, lack of quality assurance/oversight, and corporate ineptitude).

(I'll consider this a blanket response for the rest of the discussion that I was a bit late on responding to as well)
 
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happyninja42

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How many of those bar the Swastika have been irrevocably tained though?
I would personally say at least the double Sig rune and Roman Salute are irrevocably tained. Even with proper context, there's no avoiding the Nazi associations.
I mean if I see someone sporting any of the various runes that collectively get lumped into the white nationalist/nazi imagery, and I do see them fairly regularly, living in Alabama, my first thought isn't "Gosh, I bet they are a really avid historian, that has thoroughly studied the historical significance of those symbols, and their origins, and felt the best way to display that love of history, is to tattoo it on their fucking arm, or stick it on the back of their pickup truck as a detail bit of art."

My first thought is "oh boy, another fucking racist chucklefuck....oh look, what a shock, he's got an american flag in the shape of the Punisher logo next to it as well....and...yep, a don't tread on me snake....and a confederate flag....if I only had my Racist Bingo card handy I could probably win already!"

So yeah, I'd say they've been irrevocably tainted
 
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Avnger

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I mean if I see someone sporting any of the various runes that collectively get lumped into the white nationalist/nazi imagery, and I do see them fairly regularly, living in Alabama, my first thought isn't "Gosh, I bet they are a really avid historian, that has thoroughly studied the historical significance of those symbols, and their origins, and felt the best way to display that love of history, is to tattoo it on their fucking arm, or stick it on the back of their pickup truck as a detail bit of art."

My first thought is "oh boy, another fucking racist chucklefuck....oh look, what a shock, he's got an american flag in the shape of the Punisher logo next to it as well....and...yep, a don't tread on me snake....and a confederate flag....if I only had my Racist Bingo card handy I could probably win already!"

So yeah, I'd say they've been irrevocably tainted
See maybe I just took the question differently. Irrevocably to me means cannot and will never be separated from the nazism. Of course if one sees a collection of such symbols, their meaning is obvious. I limited my response to avoid some of the symbols because those symbols still do have context where they aren't associated with Nazism.

For example, take the mentioned Celtic Cross. I grew up in the (American-)Irish Catholic tradition. Celtic crosses were a regular sight throughout my childhood; I even owned one at one point. In that context, there is no association with Nazism; they are a purely religious symbol tied to the Catholic faith and culture.

The Odal rune and Roman standard I don't see as irrevocably tainted probably because of my interest in history. I see the Odal and think of ancient mythology. It's even used in games like Civ 6 (or at least one of the mods I used?) for "generic faith symbol when founding a religion." The Roman standard, I generally associate with, well, ancient Rome first. It's use by fascists is secondary in my mind at least.
 
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happyninja42

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See maybe I just took the question differently. Irrevocably to me means cannot and will never be separated from the nazism. Of course if one sees a collection of such symbols, their meaning is obvious. I limited my response to avoid some of the symbols because those symbols still do have context where they aren't associated with Nazism.

For example, take the mentioned Celtic Cross. I grew up in the (American-)Irish Catholic tradition. Celtic crosses were a regular sight throughout my childhood; I even owned one at one point. In that context, there is no association with Nazism; they are a purely religious symbol tied to the Catholic faith and culture.

The Odal rune and Roman standard I don't see as irrevocably tainted probably because of my interest in history. I see the Odal and think of ancient mythology. It's even used in games like Civ 6 (or at least one of the mods I used?) for "generic faith symbol when founding a religion." The Roman standard, I generally associate with, well, ancient Rome first. It's use by fascists is secondary in my mind at least.
Sure, not everyone that uses those symbols is a fascist, but also not everyone is, as I pointed out, an avid fan of history, and thinks "civ 6 religion menu" or other innocuous uses. And you also have to consider the source, and context of the application of the symbols. And for me at least, I don't think someone with a tattoo of one of those symbols on their arm is "a really big fan of civ 6" :p
 

Specter Von Baren

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See maybe I just took the question differently. Irrevocably to me means cannot and will never be separated from the nazism. Of course if one sees a collection of such symbols, their meaning is obvious. I limited my response to avoid some of the symbols because those symbols still do have context where they aren't associated with Nazism.

For example, take the mentioned Celtic Cross. I grew up in the (American-)Irish Catholic tradition. Celtic crosses were a regular sight throughout my childhood; I even owned one at one point. In that context, there is no association with Nazism; they are a purely religious symbol tied to the Catholic faith and culture.

The Odal rune and Roman standard I don't see as irrevocably tainted probably because of my interest in history. I see the Odal and think of ancient mythology. It's even used in games like Civ 6 (or at least one of the mods I used?) for "generic faith symbol when founding a religion." The Roman standard, I generally associate with, well, ancient Rome first. It's use by fascists is secondary in my mind at least.
A fellow history fan, huh. You got any particular periods of interest or are you more interested in a certain subject (war, biographies, disasters etc.)?