Pope Francis: “Being Homosexual Isn’t a Crime.”

Cheetodust

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That is not exclusive to gay marriages, I have nothing good to say about a straight Catholic couple that decides to get married but deliberately not have kids. But it is all gay marriages. No gay relationship ought be treated the same as people trying to have children.
My ex couldn't have kids. We were together 6 years. What if we wanted to get married? Was I wrong for choosing falling in love with someone who couldn't have children? Should I have left her for someone who could? What if I marry a trans man? That get your approval?
 

Silvanus

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Yes, that is the idea of original sin. Every person to ever exist, with 2 very specific exceptions, has been subject to the inherent tendency toward moral evil. Lust is one of the many manifestations of that.
Riiiight. But the letter wasn't just about "lust" as it could be understood for both gay and straight people, was it? This is a deflection.

Do you believe my bisexuality is a "tendency towards an intrinsic moral evil", in a way that would not apply if I was heterosexual? Because Ratzinger did.

In the case of marriage, absolutely. A marriage for the purpose of creating children, producing the next generation, is a life's vocation. A marriage that does not or cannot do that is not the same. A promise of monogamy for the purpose of children is a promise that serves a purpose for society outside of yourself. A promise of monogamy for the purpose of just an individual's personal relations is an inward facing decision, a self-contained dead-end serving no broader purpose. Yes, I believe there is obligation to treat the two things differently.

That is not exclusive to gay marriages, I have nothing good to say about a straight Catholic couple that decides to get married but deliberately not have kids. But it is all gay marriages. No gay relationship ought be treated the same as people trying to have children.
He didn't say "marriage". He said "work and housing", and that these areas of discrimination are also fine against those who are physically or mentally ill.

This is another subtle shifting, to try to talk about it in a way that isnt specifically discriminatory to gay people. But that wont work when we're discussing a letter specifically about treating gay people differently based on their sexuality.
 
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The Rogue Wolf

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How did consensual sex become a bigger evil in the mind of religious nuts than murder and torture and slavery?
Because what better way to control men than by their dicks? "God will send you to Hell if you get your tip wet without following my- I mean, His rules."

Not to mention the fear of contamination in homophobic imagination (often linked to repressed homosexuality) : the supposed agenda or threat of homosexuals "making" homosexuals.
I'm reminded of a story of a conversation between Dan Savage and his father, where Dan said "You must think that gay sex is the best thing ever- once someone tries it, they never go back!"

I have nothing good to say about a straight Catholic couple that decides to get married but deliberately not have kids.
Again, we come to your utterly disgusting belief that people are lesser if they don't dedicate themselves to making more people. Your God sounds like a capricious asshole- but we all make Him in our image, don't we?
 

tstorm823

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My ex couldn't have kids. We were together 6 years. What if we wanted to get married?
Here's the question: why would you want to get married? What is the purpose you would be pursuing?
Again, we come to your utterly disgusting belief that people are lesser if they don't dedicate themselves to making more people.
Oh no, I value human life. What a heinous thing.
Do you believe my bisexuality is a "tendency towards an intrinsic moral evil", in a way that would not apply if I was heterosexual? Because Ratzinger did.
Do you think he would not apply the same reasoning to any pair of people practicing the same behavior? This is a letter about movements to make sexuality a protected legal class, with specific focus on homosexuality. It is not coincidental that a letter about those things also has specific focus on homosexuality. There are other statements from the Vatican about other related topics.
He didn't say "marriage". He said "work and housing", and that these areas of discrimination are also fine against those who are physically or mentally ill.
The Catholic Church helps people get housing, which some resources specifically for married people. Married by Catholic standards. The Catholic Church hires lots of people, and many of them, particularly teachers, are paid to represent the Catholic faith. This isn't "gay people should all be jobless and homeless", this is "we can't be neutral to this with our own practices."
 

Cheetodust

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Here's the question: why would you want to get married? What is the purpose you would be pursuing.
No answer the question. Should we have been allowed marry? Should I have left her because she couldn't have children? Was our relationship less legitimate because of her health condition? Come on. Stop dancing around and say it with your whole fucking chest you fucking pussy.
 

Eacaraxe

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As I said, it's got less to do with sex than with gender roles. Men with men, women with women, is disorderly. Does not match the religiously/culturally/socially prescribed behaviours and clean categories. And it's even worse with male homosexuals, because they betray the "superior, strong" sex by getting a female attribute - willingly "inferior, weak".
Can you really expect more from a religion the founding culture of which brought us smash hit memes like "it's not gay if you're the pitcher" and "but it IS gay for a man to give oral sex to a woman"?
 
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Silvanus

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Do you think he would not apply the same reasoning to any pair of people practicing the same behavior? This is a letter about movements to make sexuality a protected legal class, with specific focus on homosexuality. It is not coincidental that a letter about those things also has specific focus on homosexuality. There are other statements from the Vatican about other related topics.
He never did apply the same reasoning to heterosexuality, and there's literally zero reason to think he would. He only ever used this language in connection to homosexuality, so if you're opining that he felt the same way about heterosexuality, you have pure speculation to go on.

But while we're here: the "behaviour" in question here is... having a romantic relationship and sex, that doesn't lead to procreation. Do you believe that's an "intrinsic moral evil"? Not the recognition of it with additional rights or marriage, but merely the tendency to want it?

So anyone infertile, anyone past menopause, anyone who doesn't want kids-- if they form a relationship or have sex, that's an "intrinsic evil"?

The Catholic Church helps people get housing, which some resources specifically for married people. Married by Catholic standards. The Catholic Church hires lots of people, and many of them, particularly teachers, are paid to represent the Catholic faith. This isn't "gay people should all be jobless and homeless", this is "we can't be neutral to this with our own practices."
So, discrimination against gay people in housing and work is A-OK in your view. Just say that.

I just need to keep the contempt with which you hold me in mind, next time we have a debate and you act outwardly respectful. Gotta keep in mind you'd be happy to deny me job prospects or housing because of what I am.
 

Buyetyen

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Here's the question: why would you want to get married? What is the purpose you would be pursuing?
I have a better question: Why the fuck do you think that's any of your business? Honestly, the fact that you can't answer a single question with an honest yes or no really shows how little courage you have overall.
 

Absent

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The good news is that catholics are hard at work to facilitate procreation for gay couples. And as soon as gay couples will have convenient ways to have children, catholicism obviously won't have any issue left with homosexuality at all. (y)
 

McElroy

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Honestly, the fact that you can't answer a single question with an honest yes or no really shows how little courage you have overall.
Imo the question is ridiculous to begin with as he has already said a couple of times that for Catholics marriage is good if it includes the intent to start a family. If the intent is not there -- and that of course includes known infertility -- then marriage is a wasted promise. Why play the game of having to answer every specific question everyone knows the answer to?

I disagree it must be strictly tied to opposite-sex couples (and naturally I don't care about sinning), but if marriage is to have a decent purpose it should be for raising a family. Childless marriages are just whatever but understandable because of the utility (legal and so on).
 

Cheetodust

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Imo the question is ridiculous to begin with as he has already said a couple of times that for Catholics marriage is good if it includes the intent to start a family. If the intent is not there -- and that of course includes known infertility -- then marriage is a wasted promise. Why play the game of having to answer every specific question everyone knows the answer to?

I disagree it must be strictly tied to opposite-sex couples (and naturally I don't care about sinning), but if marriage is to have a decent purpose it should be for raising a family. Childless marriages are just whatever but understandable because of the utility (legal and so on).
What does marriage have to do with having a family? My sister and her partner have 7 kids, ranging from 22 to 3 and have been together about 26 years. They're not married. A bunch of my friends have kids but aren't married. I have married friends without kids.
 

McElroy

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What does marriage have to do with having a family? My sister and her partner have 7 kids, ranging from 22 to 3 and have been together about 26 years. They're not married. A bunch of my friends have kids but aren't married. I have married friends without kids.
I used "should" purposefully. I don't like marriage being or becoming just a bunch of legal papers (and thus I'd consider a monogamous ltr when living together with your kids practically marriage). I like the cultural ideal of marriages. Naturally I understand that people want to get married for similar reasons while not going to raise a family, and they are not abusing the institution or anything. They just fall short of the ideal.
 

davidmc1158

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If the "marriage is specifically and solely for raising a family" argument was legitimate (it really isn't, but that's a different argument), then why does the Catholic Church fight so hard against gay people getting married and adopting children when they have no objection to heterosexual but infertile couples doing so?
 

Gordon_4

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I used "should" purposefully. I don't like marriage being or becoming just a bunch of legal papers (and thus I'd consider a monogamous ltr when living together with your kids practically marriage). I like the cultural ideal of marriages.
What as a form of political manoeuvring and alliance building?
 

tstorm823

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He never did apply the same reasoning to heterosexuality, and there's literally zero reason to think he would.
Do you imagine a long-time prominent cardinal and eventual Pope in the Roman Catholic Church never said anything about the issues of disconnect between sexual activity, parenthood, and marriage that wasn't just about homosexuality? That's a gutsy bet.
I just need to keep the contempt with which you hold me in mind, next time we have a debate and you act outwardly respectful.
You mean you want me to hate you because it makes it easier to dismiss my words.
Gotta keep in mind you'd be happy to deny me job prospects or housing because of what I am.
That's not what you are. You are a human being, and no combination of silly modern taxonomies has any significance even worth your consideration when thinking about who you are.
Should we have been allowed marry?
By whom?
Should I have left her because she couldn't have children?
No, but you can have a relationship with someone that isn't marriage.
Was our relationship less legitimate because of her health condition?
No, but it was certainly different than a couple that can have children.