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Asita

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Stop talking down to me like I don't know anything. "Withholding of Removal" status does NOT protect someone from being deported.
Bluntly, my tone in addressing you is warranted. Every post you've made has been riddled with errors, misstatements of fact, and outright distortions that make it clear you neither know nor understand what you're talking about. I’ve tried to be patient in past conversations, hoping to guide you toward being more receptive to new information. But time and again, you’ve chosen to double down instead of learning from corrections. So since you've consistently shown that the carrot doesn't work, you get the stick instead. And if you haven't noticed from the recurring sentiment that this same propensity for trying to bullshit your way through conversations means that you're best kept on ignore? I'm still being kinder than most.

That you don't appreciate it is immaterial to the fact that the attitude you're objecting to is very well earned. I did not start out treating you with condescension. That was a direct response to your own conduct. To the countless times that you've shown that you couldn't be bothered to do more than skim the sources you cited, only to end up arguing against them when their content was quoted back to you and revealed that they didn't align with your conclusion. To the myriad times that you've demanded a specific source to evidence one claim only to turn around and claim that it didn't count because it didn't evidence an entirely different one that you had not asked for. To the ample occasions in which you - an IT professional - have tried to condescend to professionals explaining their own fields to you (in biology, law, business, marketing, and medicine, to name a few examples) that you knew more about the subject than they did, despite your arguments typically revealing that you didn't even have a high school level understanding of the topic. To the many times that you've turned your nose up at the many studies that have been presented to you as necessarily "bad sources" because they disagreed with you.

If you want me to stop treating you like you don’t know anything, then stop bullshiting your way through these conversations. Actually try learning instead of digging your heels in when you get called out.

And let’s not pretend you haven’t seen that link before. I’m the one who presented it to you just two pages ago, so don’t try to play me with that. Let me quote the damn thing again:

"Withholding of removal provides a form of protection that is less certain than asylum, leaving its recipients in a sort of limbo. A person who is granted withholding of removal may never leave the United States without executing that removal order, cannot petition to bring family members to the United States, and does not gain a path to citizenship. And unlike asylum, when a family seeks withholding of removal together a judge may grant protection to the parent while denying it to the children, leading to family separation.

Withholding of removal also does not offer permanent protection or a path to permanent residence. If conditions improve in a person’s home country, the government can revoke withholding of removal and again seek the person’s deportation. This can occur even years after a person is granted protection."

This is precisely why Garcia legally could not be deported —his protection from deportation under Withholding of Removal is not only real, but also still in force and legally binding. It doesn’t mean he's immune to deportation forever (which I can only presume is what you're grasping at now), but it absolutely does prevent the government from deporting him unless the conditions change in his home country or the order is legally overturned. Neither of which happened.

You insist that I stop talking to you like you don't know anything, but consistently throughout previous spats, this entire conversation, and yet again just now you have made made it clear that you aren't actually engaging with the evidence, but instead trying to force it to match your preconceptions.

So for the upteenth time: Either stop grasping at straws and start engaging with what the law actually says, or stop trying to pretend that you have something to contribute to a topic you clearly don't care about enough to do your required reading on. That you feel entitled to being right does not change the fact that you are objectively wrong, and calling you out on that is the appropriate response, no matter how much it hurts your pride.

I will treat you as knowledgeable on a subject when you actually demonstrate it — by engaging with facts instead of confidently spewing misinformation and insisting that we take your arguments at their word because you claim that someone else said them. You are not entitled to me pretending that your position is worthy of respect. When you say something that is defensible, I will treat it as such. I will not do so before.

If you feel I am being unfair, there is a report button that you are free to use, and I will happily explain why I "talk to you like you don't know anything" to any moderator who asks.
 
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Seanchaidh

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I believe that is about the one guy that got sent to El Salvador by error (which he could be deported anywhere but there). It's not on the US to go and take this guy out of a foreign country.
they could stop paying that country to imprison him there
 

Schadrach

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I believe that is about the one guy that got sent to El Salvador by error (which he could be deported anywhere but there). It's not on the US to go and take this guy out of a foreign country.
Simple question: Even presuming your interpretation of the situation is accurate (it's not), what entity is responsible for him being wrongly shipped there (hint: It's the US)? Why do you believe that entity is not then responsible for fixing the damage (shipping him there) that it caused (for example, by retrieving him)?
 
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Phoenixmgs

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Bluntly, my tone in addressing you is warranted. Every post you've made has been riddled with errors, misstatements of fact, and outright distortions that make it clear you neither know nor understand what you're talking about. I’ve tried to be patient in past conversations, hoping to guide you toward being more receptive to new information. But time and again, you’ve chosen to double down instead of learning from corrections. So since you've consistently shown that the carrot doesn't work, you get the stick instead. And if you haven't noticed from the recurring sentiment that this same propensity for trying to bullshit your way through conversations means that you're best kept on ignore? I'm still being kinder than most.

That you don't appreciate it is immaterial to the fact that the attitude you're objecting to is very well earned. I did not start out treating you with condescension. That was a direct response to your own conduct. To the countless times that you've shown that you couldn't be bothered to do more than skim the sources you cited, only to end up arguing against them when their content was quoted back to you and revealed that they didn't align with your conclusion. To the myriad times that you've demanded a specific source to evidence one claim only to turn around and claim that it didn't count because it didn't evidence an entirely different one that you had not asked for. To the ample occasions in which you - an IT professional - have tried to condescend to professionals explaining their own fields to you (in biology, law, business, marketing, and medicine, to name a few examples) that you knew more about the subject than they did, despite your arguments typically revealing that you didn't even have a high school level understanding of the topic. To the many times that you've turned your nose up at the many studies that have been presented to you as necessarily "bad sources" because they disagreed with you.

If you want me to stop treating you like you don’t know anything, then stop bullshiting your way through these conversations. Actually try learning instead of digging your heels in when you get called out.

And let’s not pretend you haven’t seen that link before. I’m the one who presented it to you just two pages ago, so don’t try to play me with that. Let me quote the damn thing again:

"Withholding of removal provides a form of protection that is less certain than asylum, leaving its recipients in a sort of limbo. A person who is granted withholding of removal may never leave the United States without executing that removal order, cannot petition to bring family members to the United States, and does not gain a path to citizenship. And unlike asylum, when a family seeks withholding of removal together a judge may grant protection to the parent while denying it to the children, leading to family separation.

Withholding of removal also does not offer permanent protection or a path to permanent residence. If conditions improve in a person’s home country, the government can revoke withholding of removal and again seek the person’s deportation. This can occur even years after a person is granted protection."

This is precisely why Garcia legally could not be deported —his protection from deportation under Withholding of Removal is not only real, but also still in force and legally binding. It doesn’t mean he's immune to deportation forever (which I can only presume is what you're grasping at now), but it absolutely does prevent the government from deporting him unless the conditions change in his home country or the order is legally overturned. Neither of which happened.

You insist that I stop talking to you like you don't know anything, but consistently throughout previous spats, this entire conversation, and yet again just now you have made made it clear that you aren't actually engaging with the evidence, but instead trying to force it to match your preconceptions.

So for the upteenth time: Either stop grasping at straws and start engaging with what the law actually says, or stop trying to pretend that you have something to contribute to a topic you clearly don't care about enough to do your required reading on. That you feel entitled to being right does not change the fact that you are objectively wrong, and calling you out on that is the appropriate response, no matter how much it hurts your pride.

I will treat you as knowledgeable on a subject when you actually demonstrate it — by engaging with facts instead of confidently spewing misinformation and insisting that we take your arguments at their word because you claim that someone else said them. You are not entitled to me pretending that your position is worthy of respect. When you say something that is defensible, I will treat it as such. I will not do so before.

If you feel I am being unfair, there is a report button that you are free to use, and I will happily explain why I "talk to you like you don't know anything" to any moderator who asks.
As in the case of asylum, a person who is granted withholding of removal is protected from being returned to his or her home country and receives the right to remain in the United States and work legally. But at the end of the court process, an immigration judge enters a deportation order and then tells the government they cannot execute that order. That is, the “removal” to a person’s home country is “withheld.” However, the government is still allowed to deport that person to a different country if the other country agrees to accept them.

How would you know? You haven't read or comprehended anything that's been given to you. You demonstrate as much every time you talk about them.
Not one source you've produced has said that these people are protected from being deported.

You've never once proven this claim.Just fucking admit it or prove it, simple as that.

Which is not required for legal temporary residence.

You really do just have zero idea how the residency laws work in your own country. The fact remains: these people arrived legally, lived legally, followed all the rules of the US. Committed no infraction or offence. And now they are incarcerated in a max security prison. And you couldn't care less; your concern over how "a crime must be proven" applies to the multi millionaire President, but not to ordinary people.
AGAIN, THEY DON'T HAVE A VISA...

There is no such thing as a legal temporary resident that doesn't have a visa.
---

Simple question: Even presuming your interpretation of the situation is accurate (it's not), what entity is responsible for him being wrongly shipped there (hint: It's the US)? Why do you believe that entity is not then responsible for fixing the damage (shipping him there) that it caused (for example, by retrieving him)?
You think another country is just allowed to go to another country and take someone out even if they sent them there mistakenly? You think it would've been cool for Cuba to send troops or officials to get Elian Gonzalez? Remember that big story from like 30 years ago?
 

Schadrach

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You think another country is just allowed to go to another country and take someone out even if they sent them there mistakenly?
The US is paying El Salvador to take these people and throw them in CECOT. THE US HAS SIGNIFICANT LEVERAGE HERE AS A CONSEQUENCE. They could for example threaten to withhold further payment until such time as this person is handed back over to the US. They could have fucking turned the planes around in line with the fucking court order in the first place, or just landed, refueled and flown back without handing these people over. There's only a need to take action to try to retrieve him in the first place because Trump wiped his ass with a court order.

Your stance seems to be that the US government can simply grab anyone they want off the street without any kind of due process and so long as they throw them on a plane to the gulag deport them to El Salvador to be thrown in CECOT quickly enough then there is no way to do anything about it. If you don't understand why that is terrifyingly dangerous, I don't know what is wrong with you.

You do get that with the utter absence of due process and accepting the idea that if they do it fast enough there's no way to stop it and once it's done there's no way to get them back that you're basically arguing that Trump should have the power to send anyone to the gulags at any moment for any reason or no reason at all and with no means of defense whatsoever, right?
 
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Phoenixmgs

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This is one of your examples which doesn't say what you said it says.

So where's the story that these people are protected immigrants anywhere in a news story?

" Of the 50, at least two dozen entered the U.S. using a smartphone app known as CBP One, according to family members. The app was introduced during Joe Biden's administration to allow migrants to schedule an appointment to request entry at a legal border crossing. Trump ended the program as one of his first moves in office. "

CBP One was a route of entry for asylees, one of the protected groups explained above. It's worth clarifying that regardless of Trump ending the program, those who entered via this route beforehand retained legal status. They're expected to lose it in about 7 days from today.

The US is paying El Salvador to take these people and throw them in CECOT. THE US HAS SIGNIFICANT LEVERAGE HERE AS A CONSEQUENCE. They could for example threaten to withhold further payment until such time as this person is handed back over to the US. They could have fucking turned the planes around in line with the fucking court order in the first place, or just landed, refueled and flown back without handing these people over. There's only a need to take action to try to retrieve him in the first place because Trump wiped his ass with a court order.

Your stance seems to be that the US government can simply grab anyone they want off the street without any kind of due process and so long as they throw them on a plane to the gulag deport them to El Salvador to be thrown in CECOT quickly enough then there is no way to do anything about it. If you don't understand why that is terrifyingly dangerous, I don't know what is wrong with you.

You do get that with the utter absence of due process and accepting the idea that if they do it fast enough there's no way to stop it and once it's done there's no way to get them back that you're basically arguing that Trump should have the power to send anyone to the gulags at any moment for any reason or no reason at all and with no means of defense whatsoever, right?
They should definitely stop paying for Garcia for sure. But again, we just can't go there and get him. Orders take time to get from Point A to Point B. We have 9 people here in my IT department and we don't even hear about shit the network team does until the users start complaining and we share an office. To go from the judge to the pilots is not something just happens with the snap of a finger.

All the people the US deported didn't require due process. It would be ridiculous to require that because then anyone can come over and then to deport them, you'd have to go through courts for like months or years. Venezuelans are being sent to Venezuela, not just anyone on the streets.
 

The Rogue Wolf

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You do get that with the utter absence of due process and accepting the idea that if they do it fast enough there's no way to stop it and once it's done there's no way to get them back that you're basically arguing that Trump should have the power to send anyone to the gulags at any moment for any reason or no reason at all and with no means of defense whatsoever, right?
It'll never be Phoenixmgs, so really, everyone should just shut up about it because it doesn't matter.
 

Silvanus

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All the people the US deported didn't require due process.
Remember when you insisted a "crime needs to be proven" in order for us to criticise the President? You dropped that standard like a sack of shit, didn't you?

Venezuelans are being sent to Venezuela, not just anyone on the streets.
Not to Venezuela; to El Salvador. Maximum security prison in El Salvador. Without any crime being charged or evidenced. You keep skipping over that part.
 

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Dirty Hipsters

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All the people the US deported didn't require due process. It would be ridiculous to require that because then anyone can come over and then to deport them, you'd have to go through courts for like months or years. Venezuelans are being sent to Venezuela, not just anyone on the streets.
The people the US deported absolutely did require due process according to the supreme court.



The court took pains to underline that “detainees subject to removal orders under the AEA are entitled to notice and an opportunity to challenge their removal,” that “notice must be afforded within a reasonable time and in such a manner as will allow them to actually seek habeas relief,” and that they are “entitled to judicial review as to questions of interpretation and constitutionality of the Act.”
 

Phoenixmgs

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Remember when you insisted a "crime needs to be proven" in order for us to criticise the President? You dropped that standard like a sack of shit, didn't you?



Not to Venezuela; to El Salvador. Maximum security prison in El Salvador. Without any crime being charged or evidenced. You keep skipping over that part.
You gonna show proof that the government is deporting protected immigrants yet? I've been waiting on that for pages.

The people the US deported absolutely did require due process according to the supreme court.


OMG, immigrants require due process for throwing them in jail for like theft or murder, it does not require due process to deport them. We are all gamers here, are we not? Have you not ever been like if the game would let me do this, then it would be super broken so I'm sure it doesn't let me do that? Do you not realize how much more people would take advantage of that if you could just come into the US and couldn't be removed without due process and having to go through the court system to get removed?

It literally states this in your own source:
The Court ruled that while government can forbid non-citizens from entering and can deport legal and illegal aliens, it was unconstitutional for the government to impose punishment without “a judicial trial to establish the guilt of the accused”[10] under the Fifth Amendment’s guarantee of procedural due process prior to a deprivation of life, liberty or property.
 

Asita

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As in the case of asylum, a person who is granted withholding of removal is protected from being returned to his or her home country and receives the right to remain in the United States and work legally. But at the end of the court process, an immigration judge enters a deportation order and then tells the government they cannot execute that order. That is, the “removal” to a person’s home country is “withheld.” However, the government is still allowed to deport that person to a different country if the other country agrees to accept them.
Ok, sure, let's go with that. On further reflection I have messed up that detail about Withholding of Removal that it is specific to a single country. I will acknowledge that much, and correct myself on the matter of that one aspect.

Having said that, however, it is largely immaterial to the broader point (as I keep trying to explain to you). You are invoking this in service of the argument that the only problem is that Garcia was deported to El Salvador, and that that 'administrative error', as you phrase it, is a minor quibble on technicality to something that is otherwise completely valid, "the only error" as you put it. That is false. Objectively and unequivocally. The simple fact that he is now in El Salvador is the least objectionable of the problems.

Here are the facts of the matter:

Garcia was not simply deported, as you keep insisting. He was incarcerated in the maximum security prison of CECOT, at the direction of the United States. That is a fact.
His imprisonment is not the result of proven or adjudicated criminal action on his part. That is a fact.
His imprisonment is not the result of a trial verdict. That is a fact.
His imprisonment is entirely due to the United States paying El Salvador to imprison him there. That is a fact.

Despite the allegations of gang membership, that claim has not been used to link him to any criminal action. Even taking their allegation as a given for argument, you cannot be prosecuted simply on the grounds that you belong to a gang. Under US law, membership in any organization - even a gang - is not a crime by itself. And he has not been accused of any such criminal action. Those are facts.
Despite the fact that the court's verdict did not find that he was a gang member, the accusation that he was one is being repeated as if it was the verdict, prioritizing the initial bond ruling over the trial ruling, despite the latter superceding the former as a matter of procedure. That is a fact.
This portrayal - by the administration and its allies - of the courts finding him to be a gang member is therefore both an egregious misrepresentation of the court's ruling and fails to provide legal cause for his incarceration. That is a fact.

Garcia has not been handed a guilty verdict that would justify his treatment as a convicted criminal. That is a fact.
Because his imprisonment is not based on the results of a trial, he has been given no sentence. That is a fact.
Because he has been given no sentence, his incarceration has not been given any defined duration, limit, or guidelines. That is a fact.
Both Trump and Bukele have vocally expressed that the intention is for the people sent to CECOT to never be released. That is a fact.
The government is now using the fact that he has been rushed out of the country to claim that the courts no longer have standing to challenge or overturn his imprisonment. That is a fact.

Since the story first broke, the Trump administration has not only contradicted itself, but doubled down, changing from trying to downplay the situation as an "administrative error" to claiming that it wasn't a mistake and unilaterally declaring that the accusation of gang membership had voided the Withholding of Removal order.
The governments of both El Salvador and the United States both insist on publicly describing him in their rhetoric as a convicted criminal whose guilt is beyond contestation, despite the absence of a criminal conviction. That is a fact.
The governments of both El Salvador and the United States have insisted that no remedy for the people imprisoned there is possible, each using the sovereignty of the other country as their rationale. In response to US courts ordering the return of Garcia and others, Trump has said that it would violate El Salvador's sovereignty to request their release to US custody. When Bukele is asked, he says that it would violate the US's sovereignty to comply with the US's own court order to release them to US custody. Those are facts.
The above even happened while they were in the same room and could have easily negotiated a transfer of custody. That is a fact.
The Trump administration has just signaled that it intends to treat calls for due process for Garcia (You know, free speech in the form of protest of a Fifth Amendment violation) as "aiding and abetting criminals and terrorists" and a federal crime. That's breaking news, attributable to the White House’s Senior Director for Counterterrorism, Sebastian Gorka.

All those components of this situation are worse than the simple fact that Garcia is now within El Salvador's borders. Most of these issues would already be bad on their own, but when considered in concert with each other, they compound into something far worse. They are not isolated incidents that can be dismissed as honest mistakes. They're components in an ongoing pattern. Worse still, as we've seen in their response to litigation, not only do they explicitly not care about the 'mistakes' they're making, they are actively trying to silence the very criticism that made them label it as a mistake in the first place. Moreover, they are actively and openly making efforts to further insulate and enable them rather than correct them, arguing both that the courts should accept the results and dismiss the cases against them and insisting that any voice calling for due process are implicitly criminals, and openly mocking the idea that the judiciary has any authority to check the power of the Executive.

So let's return to the original contention: By no stretch of the imagination is the fact that Garcia was sent to the country of El Salvador "the only problem with the situation". Rather than being the only problem in an otherwise acceptable result, it is the least serious problem in what is quickly turning into a full systemic failure, in which the Administration is bypassing the justice system under false pretenses, substituting trial for allegation and misrepresenting court rulings to justify shipping people to an extrajudicial prison for indefinite incarceration. It is then using that prison's extrajudicial nature and political doublespeak to defend its violation of the Fifth Amendment through naked jurisdictional chicanery, and has even started making overt threats to the American people that daring to contradict the Administration's false narrative and demand legal accountability will result in criminal prosecution, a clear First Amendment violation.

Which gets even more chilling after Trump got caught on an open mic telling Bukele that - and I quote - "The homegrowns are next. the homegrowns. You're got to build about five more places", clearly and unambiguously signaling the intent to not only continue all of the above, but to expand their reach to include American citizens. That is nothing short of terrifying in the face of the Administration's insistence 1) on assumed or even simply asserted guilt without a court verdict, 2) that due process does not apply if they can simply get someone out of the country fast enough, 3) that the courts should be powerless to take the case and demand redress after the administration has sent them to an extrajudicial prison, and 4) that so much as saying something the administration doesn't want to hear (such as an op-ed in a school paper saying that Netanyahu's campaign in Gaza is immoral or calling for due process for the people the administration has sent to that extrajudicial prison) should be grounds for them to declare you a criminal or terrorist, which has ominous implications for what 1-3 will be applied to.

In comparison to all of that malfeasance, disregard - or even mocking contempt - for the law and its protections, and explicitly bad faith legal chicanery, the fact that Garcia was sent to a prison that 'happened' to be in El Salvador is almost incidental in its comparative severity. Still wrong, but dwarfed by everything else that you're glossing over, including the fact that he was sent to prison rather than simply deported. Rather than being the "only error" it is the error of the lowest severity in the context of this case. It's a symptom of a much larger systemic issue.
 
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