Funny Events of the "Woke" world

[Bedinsis]

immigrants require due process for throwing them in jail for like theft or murder, it does not require due process to deport them.

That is not the impression I am getting.

Article I, Section 8, Clause 18:

[The Congress shall have Power . . . ] To make all Laws which shall be necessary and proper for carrying into Execution the foregoing Powers, and all other Powers vested by this Constitution in the Government of the United States, or in any Department or Officer thereof.

In 1903, the Court in the Japanese Immigrant Case reviewed the legality of deporting an alien who had lawfully entered the United States, clarifying that an alien who has entered the country, and has become subject in all respects to its jurisdiction, and a part of its population could not be deported without an opportunity to be heard upon the questions involving his right to be and remain in the United States.1 In the decades that followed, the Supreme Court maintained the notion that once an alien lawfully enters and resides in this country he becomes invested with the rights guaranteed by the Constitution to all people within our borders.2

Eventually, the Supreme Court extended these constitutional protections to all aliens within the United States, including those who entered unlawfully, declaring that aliens who have once passed through our gates, even illegally, may be expelled only after proceedings conforming to traditional standards of fairness encompassed in due process of law.3 The Court reasoned that aliens physically present in the United States, regardless of their legal status, are recognized as persons guaranteed due process of law by the Fifth and Fourteenth Amendments.4 Thus, the Court determined, [e]ven one whose presence in this country is unlawful, involuntary, or transitory is entitled to that constitutional protection.5 Accordingly, notwithstanding Congress’s indisputably broad power to regulate immigration, fundamental due process requirements notably constrained that power with respect to aliens within the territorial jurisdiction of the United States.6

Yet the Supreme Court has also suggested that the extent of due process protection may vary depending upon [the alien’s] status and circumstance.7 In various opinions, the Court has suggested that at least some of the constitutional protections to which an alien is entitled may turn upon whether the alien has been admitted into the United States or developed substantial ties to this country.8 Thus, while the Court has recognized that due process considerations may constrain the Federal Government’s exercise of its immigration power, there is some uncertainty regarding the extent to which these constraints apply with regard to aliens within the United States.

 

[Dirty Hipsters]

You gonna show proof that the government is deporting protected immigrants yet? I've been waiting on that for pages.


OMG, immigrants require due process for throwing them in jail for like theft or murder, it does not require due process to deport them. We are all gamers here, are we not? Have you not ever been like if the game would let me do this, then it would be super broken so I'm sure it doesn't let me do that? Do you not realize how much more people would take advantage of that if you could just come into the US and couldn't be removed without due process and having to go through the court system to get removed?

It literally states this in your own source:
The Court ruled that while government can forbid non-citizens from entering and can deport legal and illegal aliens, it was unconstitutional for the government to impose punishment without “a judicial trial to establish the guilt of the accused”[10] under the Fifth Amendment’s guarantee of procedural due process prior to a deprivation of life, liberty or property.

Real question - Do you know what immigration courts are and what their purpose is?

Yes,. the government can forbid non-citizens from entering the county and can deport people. No one is questioning that fact. The mechanism by which the government deports people is what is in question, and you clearly don't understand how deportations actually work.

The supreme court has stated and upheld multiple times that people who are being deported have the right to a judicial review of the deportation. That is due process. That is the process by which it is determined who has legitimate claims to stay in the US and who does not. Without doing that the Trump administration is breaking the law.

I don't get what is so difficult to understand about this. This is how it has ALWAYS been. The people who were deported under Clinton, Bush, Obama, and Biden were deported with due process, with hearings and through judicial review. Why do you think that the Trump administration should get to bypass those laws?

Even expedited removal, which can be carried out without a court hearing still allows protections to people who indicate that they intend to apply for asylum or have a credible reason to fear for their safety if deported, and prior to removal an asylum officer must review their case, and if asylum is not granted the individual can request a hearing before an immigration judge who must review the case within 7 days. These are all legal requirements.

Expedited Removal Explainer

Expedited removal is a process by which low-level immigration officers can quickly deport certain noncitizens who are undocumented or have committed fraud or misrepresentation.

www.americanimmigrationcouncil.org

You seem to have this idea about how all of this works that is based completely on your own feelings and has nothing to do with how deportations actually work, and so you're literally arguing against a strawman that you have made up in your head.

Do you not realize how much more people would take advantage of that if you could just come into the US and couldn't be removed without due process and having to go through the court system to get removed?

It would be the same amount that we currently have BECAUSE THAT'S HOW IT ALREADY WORKS.

 

[Casual Shinji]

Phoenixmgs likes what the Trump administration is doing to all the innocent people it's deporting to foreign prisons. There, I saved you all a wall of text trying to explain why he's wrong.

 

[Silvanus]

The supreme court has stated and upheld multiple times that people who are being deported have the right to a judicial review of the deportation. That is due process.

To add to this: the direct quote from the (unanimous) finding of the appeal court:

"It is difficult in some cases to get to the very heart of the matter. But in this case, it is not hard at all. The government is asserting a right to stash away residents of this country in foreign prisons without the semblance of due process that is the foundation of our constitutional order. Further, it claims in essence that because it has rid itself of custody that there is nothing that can be done.

This should be shocking not only to judges, but to the intuitive sense of liberty that Americans far removed from courthouses still hold dear.

The government asserts that Abrego Garcia is a terrorist and a member of MS-13. Perhaps, but perhaps not. Regardless, he is still entitled to due process."

 

[The Rogue Wolf]

Phoenixmgs likes what the Trump administration is doing to all the innocent people it's deporting to foreign prisons. There, I saved you all a wall of text trying to explain why he's wrong.

He's just a member of Trump's base, and they put Trump in power for exactly one purpose: To make the people they hate suffer and die.

 

[Trunkage]

He's just a member of Trump's base, and they put Trump in power for exactly one purpose: To make the people they hate suffer and die.

Phoenixmgs claims he didn't vote for Trump. He certainly likes everything Trump did last time. Eg. concentration camps, disappearing BLM protestets and killing a million citizens through poor Covid policies

So it doesn't really matter if he didn't vote for Trump. I could understand people voting for Biden and then criticizing every time Biden made a wrong decision. This should be similar to average Republican voter. Just because you voted for a person, it doesn't mean you agree with every stance.

Phoenixmgs has gone out of his way to defend Trump. It's not really about who you voted for as much as which policies you defend

But here's the thing to think about. He's been pro-all these things and claims he isn't a Trump voter. That might mean what he actually wants to vote for is more right wing then Trump

 

[Trunkage]

Phoenixmgs likes what the Trump administration is doing to all the innocent people it's deporting to foreign prisons. There, I saved you all a wall of text trying to explain why he's wrong.

What will save you a wall of text is that he literally won't read it. It's pointless bring evidence because he doesn't read it. He isn't interested in debates, he's only interested in demanding we follow his lead

 

[Thaluikhain]

But here's the thing to think about. He's been pro-all these things and claims he isn't a Trump voter. That might mean what he actually wants to vote for is more right wing then Trump

Catnip, on the old board was the same, seemingly convinced they weren't a Trump supporter, but constantly supporting everything Trump did. Dunno if that's deniability, or being aware on some level how awful it is to be a supporter of them.

 

[hanselthecaretaker2]

Kilmar Abrego Garcia timeline: What we know about his time in the US and deportation

There are a lot of dates and information circulating about Kilmar Abrego Garcia. FOX45 News has uncovered several pieces to the puzzle.Here’s what we know about

foxbaltimore.com

While the press attempts its latest martyrdom for obvious reasons -

https://www.cato.org/blog/deportation-rates-historical-perspective

Even the ACLU called out Obama’s deportation record in particular.

And just how many injunctions did any of them receive, I wonder. Kinda hard to believe every one of those numbers was considered justified and a proven threat.

 

[Silvanus]

Kilmar Abrego Garcia timeline: What we know about his time in the US and deportation

There are a lot of dates and information circulating about Kilmar Abrego Garcia. FOX45 News has uncovered several pieces to the puzzle.Here’s what we know about

foxbaltimore.com

While the press attempts its latest martyrdom for obvious reasons -

https://www.cato.org/blog/deportation-rates-historical-perspective

Even the ACLU called out Obama’s deportation record in particular.

And just how many injunctions did any of them receive, I wonder. Kinda hard to believe every one of those numbers was considered justified and a proven threat.

Yep, the mass deportations under Obama were indeed pretty fucking awful.

But a quick question: do you think the primary objection to what happened to Garcia and the 238 Venezuelans is that they were deported, or that there was complete denial of due process and they were incarcerated in maximum security prison without charge?

 

[tstorm823]

complete denial of due process

I would love to get off on a tangent on just the phrase "due process". The idea of it is the steps and owed to someone, what they are entitled to, before a legal outcome may be handed down. But there are two weaknesses to that phrase: first, it is incredibly non-specific, due process for a parking ticket is not the same as due process for murder, nor is there reason it should be. Due process for a citizen is not the same as due process for a foreigner. What process is due varies wildly by circumstance, so just saying "denied due process" is incredibly vague. The other is that in the context of an argument, its sort of tautological. Due process is the process that is due. If you deny someone due process, you are not giving them treatment they are entitled to, because that's what due process means...

But at the same time, I do not have an alternative, I don't know how else one would begin to discuss the concept other than sort of vaguely defining it as itself.

 

[Silvanus]

I would love to get off on a tangent on just the phrase "due process". The idea of it is the steps and owed to someone, what they are entitled to, before a legal outcome may be handed down. But there are two weaknesses to that phrase: first, it is incredibly non-specific, due process for a parking ticket is not the same as due process for murder, nor is there reason it should be. Due process for a citizen is not the same as due process for a foreigner. What process is due varies wildly by circumstance, so just saying "denied due process" is incredibly vague.

Sure-- in the same way that the phrase "proper medical treatment" is vague in isolation, but a reasonable person would still say someone was "denied proper medical treatment" if the doctor refused to stop bleeding and gave them witchhazel instead.

"Due" implies "to which they are legally entitled in their situation and with their status". That's why it was so silly for Phoenix to argue that these migrants "aren't entitled to due process"-- as you say, if it's due, then they are entitled to it. He could have tried to argue that they are entitled to no process at all before incarceration (and that appears to be effectively what he is arguing).

To be more specific here, the Supreme Court and (4th C) Federal Court of Appeals have both gone into more explicit detail about what these people are entitled to: Judicial review of whether they are in fact gang members; advance notice of a change of status; opportunity to challenge.

 

[hanselthecaretaker2]

Yep, the mass deportations under Obama were indeed pretty fucking awful.

But a quick question: do you think the primary objection to what happened to Garcia and the 238 Venezuelans is that they were deported, or that there was complete denial of due process and they were incarcerated in maximum security prison without charge?

The problem with the due process argument is it shouldn’t only get to apply to the tail end. A few hundred people shouldn’t be that difficult to vet. Like most-all case we’re also only being told what we’re meant to hear.

In any case, it appears a “deal” was made -

https://www.reuters.com/world/americas/el-salvador-proposes-sending-us-deported-venezuelans-venezuela-2025-04-20/

 

[Silvanus]

The problem with the due process argument is it shouldn’t only get to apply to the tail end.

What?

A few hundred people shouldn’t be that difficult to vet.

Difficulty of vetting is not the reason the administration denied these people due process. It did so because it wanted to scapegoat a group of migrants, and didn't want to let a little thing like innocence stop them.

 

[Gergar12]

What?



Difficulty of vetting is not the reason the administration denied these people due process. It did so because it wanted to scapegoat a group of migrants, and didn't want to let a little thing like innocence stop them.

I also suspect it's a deterrent to future climate refugees. I knew it would be easy to solve for any republican, I just didn't think it would happen this soon.

The bigger issue I see is that the US, and the world as a whole, hate the following more and more.

1. Democracy
2. Rule of Law
3. And my favorite... dissent

And all of this is because the powerful, not just the rich, like to keep their power and or grow it. You can also be rich like a Chinese Indonesian business owner who grew up poor, but has no political power, which makes protecting your economic power futile.

I always love it when people say the rich are the problem or the government is the problem. No, it's when either gets out of hand that it gets bad, like the 'centrists' who make a country more of a Cyberpunk 2077 dystopia, or inversely, when the angry mob that kills the landowner, then kills each other in a civil war because mobs be 'mobbing' and didn't think about what to do when they got power. And of course, the middle-class fascists who murder people industrially because they like their small business that exploits their workers ironically more than the big business most of the time, but the big business centrist doesn't like them because it's putting them out of business.

 

[Agema]

"Due" implies "to which they are legally entitled in their situation and with their status". That's why it was so silly for Phoenix to argue that these migrants "aren't entitled to due process"-- as you say, if it's due, then they are entitled to it. He could have tried to argue that they are entitled to no process at all before incarceration (and that appears to be effectively what he is arguing).

I'm pretty sure that the Supreme Court ruled on whether due process applies to foreigners in US jurisdiction a long time ago.

After all, where the US Constitution needed to discriminate between US citizens and everyone, it did so very clearly. Therefore where it says "Persons" rather than "Citizens", it meant everyone, not just citizens.

 

[hanselthecaretaker2]

What?


Difficulty of vetting is not the reason the administration denied these people due process. It did so because it wanted to scapegoat a group of migrants, and didn't want to let a little thing like innocence stop them.

Alito criticizes SCOTUS deportation decision in strongly-worded dissent | Fox News

Justice Samuel Alito penned a dissent opposing the Supreme Court's recent decision to block President Donald Trump's deportations of Venezuelan criminals under the Alien Enemies Act of 1798.

www.foxnews.com

Logic.

Kilmar Abrego Garcia is an MS-13 Gang member with a History of Violence | Homeland Security

The mainstream media has peddled a sob story about Kilmar Abrego Garcia. The facts are he is an illegal alien from El Salvador, a MS-13 gang member, and has a history of violence.

www.dhs.gov

https://www.justice.gov/ag/media/1396906/dl?inline

 

[Agema]

Logic.

It's one of those things that superficially looks witty, but is actually incredibly and embarrassingly stupid.

The same logic applies to literally everyone who breaks the law in any way, not just illegal immigrants. But it's worse than that, because due process is, after all, a fundamental basis by which the law is fair; it cannot selectively apply due process to the innocent and not the guilty, because it is a key mechanism by which the law accurately determines innocence and guilt.

 

[Dirty Hipsters]

Logic.

How would you know who bypassed the law to get into the US and who didn't without proof obtained through due process?

Logic.

 

[Casual Shinji]

How would you know who bypassed the law to get into the US and who didn't without proof obtained through due process?

Logic.

He's quoting the Babylon Bee. I think we can leave it at that.