Mixtape; Ovehated piece of art! Now where's the gameplay?

[Casual Shinji]

I guess because I searched the music on YouTube, got a few video recommendations to my feed that were titled something along the lines of "why this is a terrible game for LOSERS!" I usually ignore pointless internet drama, but curiosity got the better of me.

What followed was the funniest 'bitter nerd who never quite got over highschool' rant I have ever seen.
Most of the critique went along the lines of "this is clearly fanfiction by some sad nerds about how they wished their highschool days had gone, instead of growing up to be a bunch of loser nerd game developers fantasising about being the cool kids. But the people in their fantasies are losers too! So they're double losers! I am in no way bitter about my own teenage years."

I mean sure it looks pretty tropey rose tinted teen nostalgia, but holy shit dude, you're telling us more about yourself than the game here.

Yeah, more dredged-up hate - the 'this isn't what high school was really like' argument. No shit, neither were all the classic 80's and 90's teen movies. It's always been idealistic, with strong genuine friendships, becoming cool and respected, and getting the girl in the end. The fact that these movies spoke to teens wasn't because they were true, it's because they were wishfullfillment.

 

[Zykon TheLich]

Yeah, more dredged-up hate - the 'this isn't what high school was really like' argument. No shit, neither were all the classic 80's and 90's teen movies. It's always been idealistic, with strong genuine friendships, becoming cool and respected, and getting the girl in the end. The fact that these movies spoke to teens wasn't because they were true, it's because they were wishfullfillment.

I mean, partially yes. I think also there's a set of people out there that think if it didn't happen to them, then it's not actually a thing. Parties happen, drugs are taken, sex is had, and not just by the football team and the cheerleading squad.
The particular video felt like they had a stereotypical nerd experience at highschool and couldn't comprehend that this might not have been the case for other people and besides all that stuff is for stupid losers and I'm not bitter, and seeing a game portraying something different does not at all fill my mouth with the taste of a thousand lemons.

 

[laggyteabag]

Wow, this whole argument brings back memories.

I remember people up in arms around the game Dear Esther, about whether or not it was a "game" enough, to be a game.

Same goes for when TellTale's The Walking Dead was first making the rounds.

Games like this are all spectacle, story, and vibes. And if that isn't enough for you, that is fine! This game isn't supposed to appeal to the masses of Call of Duty bros. If you want a cute story about a bunch of teens hanging out, then this game is here. If you don't, then I don't see the need to rag on it, unless you're a grifter looking for views.

Games can be more than just blasting bad guys with assault rifles. I think its neat that games like this exist. Especially when you can tell that this is clearly a passion project.

 

[Phoenixmgs]

Games can be more than just blasting bad guys with assault rifles.

The problem is video games haven't evolved past combat as the main gameplay loop. Even a genre like RPGs that should have combat as something you do once in a while is the thing you do most of your playtime. Hell, RPGs don't even require combat (Why must the only role-play option be someone that constantly fights monsters? You can literally be anyone in an RPG.). Just looking at my phone and the games I have on it, hardly any of them involve combat and the ones that do, combat isn't even 5% of the gameplay (outside of Slay the Spire and Sentinels of the Multiverse).

 

[CriticalGaming]

The problem is video games haven't evolved past combat as the main gameplay loop

What are you talking about?

Disco Elysium has no combat.
Super Meat Boy has no combat.
Racing games have no combat.
Puzzle games have no combat.
Spiritfarer no combat
Citizen Sleeper no combat
Dangonrampa, Ace Attorney, Pyre, Harvest moon, Animal Crossing......

WTF do you mean games haven't evolved past combat being the main gameplay loop?

 

[Phoenixmgs]

What are you talking about?

Disco Elysium has no combat.
Super Meat Boy has no combat.
Racing games have no combat.
Puzzle games have no combat.
Spiritfarer no combat
Citizen Sleeper no combat
Dangonrampa, Ace Attorney, Pyre, Harvest moon, Animal Crossing......

WTF do you mean games haven't evolved past combat being the main gameplay loop?

Main AAA games that have the resources to push gameplay forward. How many RPGs can you name without combat compared to the amount of RPGs where combat is the thing you do for the majority of your playtime?

 

[Old_Hunter_77]

In a way, I'd hope there's little consensus: "good" is subjective!

What I would suggest is that most critics are very superficial. They don't have much to offer except their variation on "I (don't) like it". They don't give you any insight into what makes a story. One thing I quite enjoy is watching videos from people who've properly studied literature, and can talk about a lot more the technical aspects of storytelling. I remember reading an author brought in to help a dev team write the story for the game, and fulminating at how little they understood of how to make a good story. Although that said, just because something might be technically adept doesn't mean people will like it.

Well I don't know about "most critics"- that is just non-falsifiable. Maybe it's true but I don't have the capacity or interest to do a survey of game critics and know if that is true. Especially given how ravaged games media has become over the last few years.
I mean, look you guys- you hate games journalists and reviewers, for some reason. But they're fucking destroyed! Mergers, acquisitions, buyouts, layoffs. You won, they'd dead.

Ironically, the IGN review that is the focus of this nonsensical internet controversy is a very clear, well-written explanation of the writer's very proudly subjective approach to the review. But since the fake outrage argument is also about a made-up idea of what is even a review, it doesn't matter what they write anyway. So, I dunno, I can't take seriously "critics suck" in the middle of endless posts all over the internet from people who either don't read the reviews or decide, on a case by case basis relative to their own narrow opinions, what a review should have been after the fact.

 

[CriticalGaming]

Main AAA games that have the resources to push gameplay forward. How many RPGs can you name without combat compared to the amount of RPGs where combat is the thing you do for the majority of your playtime?

AAA games are too expensive to take risks of pushing things forward, so they have no reason to try to do that when the "combat games" make them the most money. Even still there are plenty of big names in the gaming space that have no combat at all like Ace Attorney, Animal Crossing, etc etc.

Though if you want specifically AAA, then that falls to Sports and racing games which are some of the biggest markets in gaming. NBA, NFL, FIFA, all make billions and are some of the biggest most popular games out there.

 

[Satinavian]

So it is supposed to be a 2 hour long walking simulator with unlikeble character trying to reenact 90s coming of age movies and being carried by not even original music but licenced tracks of days past.

Well, won't buy it, that is pretty certain. And all the 9s and 10s feel weird.

However, i don't hate it. It seems to be relatively unbuggy, has no shady business practices and is not offensive in any way i can perceive.

 

[BrawlMan]

So it is supposed to be a 2 hour long walking simulator with unlikeble character trying to reenact 90s coming of age movies and being carried by not even original music but licenced tracks of days past.

Well, won't buy it, that is pretty certain. And all the 9s and 10s feel weird.

However, i don't hate it. It seems to be relatively unbuggy, has no shady business practices and is not offensive in any way i can perceive.

And unlike the loud morons on the internet, who hate this game, you did not need to go off a obnoxious two hour diatribe on why the game is "bad".

 

[BrawlMan]

Racing games have no combat.

Burnout, Mario Kart, Sonic All Star Racing, Cruisn Blast, Nitro Kart all say hello.

 

[Phoenixmgs]

AAA games are too expensive to take risks of pushing things forward, so they have no reason to try to do that when the "combat games" make them the most money. Even still there are plenty of big names in the gaming space that have no combat at all like Ace Attorney, Animal Crossing, etc etc.

Though if you want specifically AAA, then that falls to Sports and racing games which are some of the biggest markets in gaming. NBA, NFL, FIFA, all make billions and are some of the biggest most popular games out there.

AAA does have the resources to push things forward like say enemy AI that smaller studios don't have. If you look at the games/screenshot from my phone, those are some of the biggest games in board gaming; one is about terraforming a planet (Terraforming Mars) and another is about making a zoo (Arc Nova). Video games, especially AAA, just keep making the same games I've already played essentially but better looking (and usually worse gameplay because games from 20 years ago played better for the most part).

Just look at the vast difference in game theme you have in the following list, you don't have that at all in video games.

https://boardgamegeek.com/browse/boardgame

 

[CriticalGaming]

Video games, especially AAA, just keep making the same games I've already played essentially but better looking (and usually worse gameplay because games from 20 years ago played better for the most part).

i mean I feel like this is really broad sweeps and not really sincere. Because if you simply look at the foundation of every game ever made you can point to the original game that did it and claim things have never evolved.

Are shooters really any different since Doom? You point you click and bullets go pew. But realistically you can't really say Borderlands games exist as copies of Call of Duty games. They are completely different things despite the gameplay effectively being the same thing.

Is Super Meat Boy the same as Mario Bros? It's effectively running and jumping and that's it so they're the same thing right?

I still think that AAA games continue to get better and better overall. Sure there are some exceptions with MTX's and lazy itteratives sure, but as the broader picture you get Crimson Desert, Baldur's Gate 3, Pragmata, Resident Evil, Final Fantasy's, FarCry.

If you expect every game to come out and be revolutionarily new to you, then yeah I guess you're just going to never be happy. But that's a real horrid way to look at any entertainment.

 

[Gordon_4]

AAA does have the resources to push things forward like say enemy AI that smaller studios don't have. If you look at the games/screenshot from my phone, those are some of the biggest games in board gaming; one is about terraforming a planet (Terraforming Mars) and another is about making a zoo (Arc Nova). Video games, especially AAA, just keep making the same games I've already played essentially but better looking (and usually worse gameplay because games from 20 years ago played better for the most part).

Just look at the vast difference in game theme you have in the following list, you don't have that at all in video games.

https://boardgamegeek.com/browse/boardgame

All I’m getting from that is stuff like Spore and Zoo Tycoon are up your alley as games. I don’t recognise any of the other games there but I’d hazard a guess that a few of them are puzzle based if for no other reason that phones/tablets are a perfect delivery platform for them. Hell the only things I play on my phone are shit like Wordscapes - essentially an infinite amount of guess the word games from a newspaper - but I sure as fuck didn’t invest in a powerful gaming PC for that.

As for RPGs, well, as has been pointed out at the very least Disco Elysium proves that it’s possible but I’m of the opinion it’s an exception that proves the rule and until “A.I.” (the kind everyone is memeing and clowning on) reaches a point where it can dynamically adjust a game as well as human game master can, you might have to accept that BG3 is is as good as it’s going to get.

 

[Gordon_4]

So it is supposed to be a 2 hour long walking simulator with unlikeble character trying to reenact 90s coming of age movies and being carried by not even original music but licenced tracks of days past.

Okay this has been a point brought up a couple of times and I’m still confused by it. Why the fuck would you write new songs about 90s - especially since nothing is created in a vacuum - to be the backing soundtrack to a period piece game when in the moment classics exist and would make sense to have.

 

[Satinavian]

Okay this has been a point brought up a couple of times and I’m still confused by it. Why the fuck would you write new songs about 90s - especially since nothing is created in a vacuum - to be the backing soundtrack to a period piece game when in the moment classics exist and would make sense to have.

You don't have to.

But if you use old, well known tracks, don't try to sell your game on its good music.

 

[Gordon_4]

You don't have to.

But if you use old, well known tracks, don't try to sell your game on its good music.

Why? It is good music. It may not be original music but I say again; if you’re deliberately doing a period piece to evoke an emotional response from the people playing it, original music makes no sense. Hell I’d argue there’s a few bands missing from the list: where’s Korn, or Aqua, or Red Hot Chilli Peppers? And fuck me not a single rap song: no Tupac, no Dr. Dre? I mean whomever put the soundtrack together must have been in my head cos both Stan Bush songs from The Transformers the Movie are in there but even for a 90s throwback that’s stretching it.

 

[Satinavian]

Why? It is good music.

It is not wrong to use that music, but the evaluation of the game should not benefit from the music if that music is not original. Because the people making the game did not make the music.

If i watch a dance performance i don't say "The performance was really good because i liked the music they played in the background" either.

 

[laggyteabag]

It is not wrong to use that music, but the evaluation of the game should not benefit from the music if that music is not original. Because the people making the game did not make the music.

If i watch a dance performance i don't say "The performance was really good because i liked the music they played in the background" either.

Music is incredibly core to this experience. It is how something adapts or interprets music that makes it work.

To take your analogy, a dance performance will be drastically different if they are dancing to Beethoven versus if they are dancing to Motorhead. It changes everything!

And without the music, the dance wouldn't be the same.

Take any of the scenes in the game, and put them on mute. Immediately watch the vibes, energy and excitement of the scene completely disappear. The game is as transformative to the music, as the music is transformative to the game.

How this game uses licensed music *is* the game.

 

[Satinavian]

Yes, exactly that is why i used the dance example.