A Beheading In France

Seanchaidh

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There's only so much to be said about situations like these. And it's not like anyone has shown up to argue something to the effect of "Yes beheading is bad, but..."
Yes, beheading is bad, but maybe it's not the best idea to shut down unrelated Muslim civil rights groups?
 

CM156

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Yes, beheading is bad, but maybe it's not the best idea to shut down unrelated Muslim civil rights groups?
I don't know anything about the group in question, so I can't comment on the prudence of shutting it down.
 

Silvanus

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But sure let's do diplomacy with them, let's engage them, let's trade with them. We have morons in power all around the world who think this, and morons like Biden and Harris that want to do even more of this.

And Biden is winning?!?!
Neither candidate's approach-- engagement and diplomacy, or trade wars and grandstanding-- have any likelihood of bringing about positive change in this area.
 

happyninja42

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Neither candidate's approach-- engagement and diplomacy, or trade wars and grandstanding-- have any likelihood of bringing about positive change in this area.
Not to mention it's difficult to just ignore any group that has numbers equal to the population of countries, based on the actions of their extreme faction. I mean if so we'd have to do the same for christians, because some of their ranks do terrible, horrible shit in the name of their faith, as well as a lot of underhanded shit too. But, that's not the world we live in. They control massive blocs of the world, financially, governmentally, etc. So, they have to be dealt with on some level.

It sucks but, until we can convince them they don't have any good reasons for believing the stuff they do, and thus maaaaaybe shouldnt' take actions based on those beliefs, especially when those beliefs cause harm to others, we're stuck with dealing with them as is.
 

Gordon_4

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How goes your country's relationship with the native Australians in it? Still shit?
Serious answer? The relations are still pretty rocky and there’s some hardliners on both sides making further reconciliation a touch difficult. I doubt the issues between us will be solved in my lifetime.
 

Gergar12

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Neither candidate's approach-- engagement and diplomacy, or trade wars and grandstanding-- have any likelihood of bringing about positive change in this area.
Trump's Pompeo literally wants Americans first to be against China. Then he will get allies. Because Americans like Mark Cuban, Jeff Bezos, and Bill Gates, as well as Jamie Dimon, are for China.

Whereas Biden's plan is appeasement.
 

happyninja42

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Then he will get allies.
.....yyyeaaaah, good fucking luck with that. Trump and his ilk have tanked the global opinion of the US so badly, that the idea that he would intentionally cut off all ties to what, the 2nd largest economy in the world, antagonize them like only he can, and THEN try and find people to back him in what would likely escalate into open conflict if he keeps pushing? Sure, that sounds like a STELLAR plan that in no way will backfire.
 

Agema

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Trump's Pompeo literally wants Americans first to be against China. Then he will get allies. Because Americans like Mark Cuban, Jeff Bezos, and Bill Gates, as well as Jamie Dimon, are for China.

Whereas Biden's plan is appeasement.
The best US strategy for containment of China is a wider Pacific alliance from South Korea and Japan to Malaysia, plus Australia, etc.

The geopolitical situation is such that China is overtly or implicitly threatening other states, who want to resist their encroachment. The key aim of the USA is therefore to provide some additional backbone to such an alliance and try to keep them both together and within the USA's sphere of influence. That is going to be the case under any "normal" US administration whatsoever, because it's base national interest.

And you want Biden, not Trump. The reason for this is that underneath Trump's showy hostilities, there's absolutely nothing. Thump is chaotic and disinsterested, and foreign policy is a mess which means there's not actually this co-ordination and assistance occurring effectively - he alienates allies. Remember, this is the guy who in person begged Xi Jinping for some concessions so he could impress his folks back home and help win re-election. This is Trump: he doesn't give a damn about national interest. His hostility to China and his woefully ineffectual trade war is nothing but a superficial display to look tough and pretend he's doing something.

Trump is also representing and feeding the USA's isolationist tendencies: a USA that withdraws from global affairs and policing because it's not their business. This means China, too - so if the CCP ever comes for Taiwan, a USA with years more Trumpist ideology will let it fall. There's not much succour here on te left either as progressives would let it drop as readily, and a dull as ditchwater centreist is as good as it gets for the USA standing up to China.
 

Silvanus

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Trump's Pompeo literally wants Americans first to be against China. Then he will get allies. Because Americans like Mark Cuban, Jeff Bezos, and Bill Gates, as well as Jamie Dimon, are for China.

Whereas Biden's plan is appeasement.
And what has Pompeo's position accomplished vis-a-vis repression in China? We've seen bellicose statements, patriotic grandstanding, tariff threats and a trade war... has it brought about any internal political change?

No, and thats not even the intention behind it.
 

Samtemdo8

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The US tortures Muslims, overwhelming locks up blacks, or straight up lets police kill them, concentration camps for ‘Mexicans’, invades Afghanistan and Iraq, makes deals with Taliban, overthrows Bolivia, Libya and Syria and almost Venezuela, anything that disagrees with the presidents gets called liars

But FREEDOM. So automatically better
And? Both are bad, doesn't excuse China though.
 

Hawki

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The best US strategy for containment of China is a wider Pacific alliance from South Korea and Japan to Malaysia, plus Australia, etc.

The geopolitical situation is such that China is overtly or implicitly threatening other states, who want to resist their encroachment.
I'm pretty sure we've discussed this before, but I have to ask, why does China need to be "contained?"

Don't get me wrong, I'm not a China apologist. There's the Ughyr situation, it's reneged on its promises to Hong Kong, it's threatened reunification with Taiwan through military means, it's claiming the South China Sea, it's used debt trap diplomacy, etc. There's a lot to criticize China for. But unlike the US, it hasn't unilaterally invaded another country, and it hasn't exerted international influence the way the US has. I'll grant you that in the Cold War, the US was probably the lesser of two evils (when compared to the USSR), but I don't know if we're at that stage yet.

I mean, practically speaking, ignoring moral questions for a moment, if China seized Taiwan today, how would life actually change for the rest of us? If China exerted influence over its neighbours, how does that affect us? It's the same question I have to admit about, say, Iran. Iran's funded militant groups in the Middle-east for ages, and is engaged in a cold war of sorts with Saudi Arabia, but am I really supposed to believe that Iran is some existential threat?

Trump is also representing and feeding the USA's isolationist tendencies: a USA that withdraws from global affairs and policing because it's not their business. This means China, too - so if the CCP ever comes for Taiwan, a USA with years more Trumpist ideology will let it fall. There's not much succour here on te left either as progressives would let it drop as readily, and a dull as ditchwater centreist is as good as it gets for the USA standing up to China.
But should the US be involved in global affairs (or, rather, to the extent that it is)?

Like, you know me, I've questioned the size of the US military budget, and from my eyes, the greatest threats of this century will be climate change rather than military action, but even leading that aside, has the US made things better or worse over the last two decades? It's not the only party, but since Iraq, well...

Again, China's terrible, but at least its terribleness is mostly confined to its own people. Yes, we can rail against debt trap diplomacy, but neoliberalism's kind of screwed over a lot of countries well before China got in on the game.
 

Satinavian

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Threatening to annex Taiwan the Republic of China.
Fixed.

Your other arguments have merit.

But sure let's do diplomacy with them, let's engage them, let's trade with them. We have morons in power all around the world who think this, and morons like Biden and Harris that want to do even more of this.

And Biden is winning?!?!
Seems that the rest of the world has enough of the US as sole superpower and things China as counterweight might not be so bad.

Or they just think diplomacy and trade are good for their own country (which they are). And the US and China having a trade war just means a competitive advantage for themself if they continue to trade with both. Whereas opposing China is just bothersome, costly, thankless and unlikely to change anything anyway.[/QUOTE]
 

CaitSeith

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Yeah, and I oppose all of that, but Trump is an outlier
OK. Stop it there. You can't be any less of an outlier than being the f-ing President of the United States. What exactly makes the POTUS an outlier?
 

CaitSeith

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.....yyyeaaaah, good fucking luck with that. Trump and his ilk have tanked the global opinion of the US so badly, that the idea that he would intentionally cut off all ties to what, the 2nd largest economy in the world, antagonize them like only he can, and THEN try and find people to back him in what would likely escalate into open conflict if he keeps pushing? Sure, that sounds like a STELLAR plan that in no way will backfire.
Trump is so awful in diplomacy that the only way he would get the support needed for that is through coercion...
 

Agema

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Again, China's terrible, but at least its terribleness is mostly confined to its own people.
Sure. Because it hasn't much had the power to inflict its terribleness on anywhere else.

Fundamentally, countries with power use it. They always have done and maybe always will. At certain points it will be expedient to bully other countries up to and including militarily; a domineering leader will leap at the chance and even a cautious one will sometimes submit to temptation.

I'm pretty sure we've discussed this before, but I have to ask, why does China need to be "contained?"
Taiwan could probably go down, and you're right it wouldn't be so bad. What about South Korea? Japan? What happens if China has enough power to use as leverage much further afield over what your government does and what you can say and think? At what point does it become a problem?

At what point is it just inherently objectionable? Is any of our belief in freedom worth anything when a totalitarian regime swallows up or forces into obedience other free peoples, and we just watch and shrug?
 
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Trunkage

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Trump's Pompeo literally wants Americans first to be against China. Then he will get allies. Because Americans like Mark Cuban, Jeff Bezos, and Bill Gates, as well as Jamie Dimon, are for China.

Whereas Biden's plan is appeasement.
Trump bent over and puckered up for Xi. He literally beg him for a better deal so he didn’t loose more votes. That list you made of appeasers... Trump is right at the top.

Biden not going to do much better. America lost a long time ago. It just is too arrogant to realise it