The Angels Take Manhattan
- Thread starter Susan Arendt
- Start date
Wow you disliked that a lot more than I would have possibly thought. I found it incredibly sad, Rory and Amy are by far and away my favourite companions (although as a Newvian that's not such a huge thing) and this was a fairly incredible send-off, although heartbreaking (and it was heartbreaking twice darn it 
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I disliked most of it as the only thing I hate more than Amy and Rory is River Song but here is my biggest problem with it. The Doctor cannot go back to 193 whatever New York or he will blow up Now York right? Ok. Go to any other place in the USA. Then get on a train to NYC, find Amy and Rory, get on another train back to where you parked the Tardis and off you go. Problem solved.
- Mar 31, 2010
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I liked this episode a lot, though it would have been better if they'd thought out a couple of parts (like the Statue of Liberty angel) better before putting them in. Never mind, I thought it was a fitting send off for the Ponds.
As for the Doctor's personality, I wouldn't necessarily call him "the opposite" of a child. Yes he's ancient and has seen more than we could ever imagine but he also has a naive excitable streak that's best described as childlike.
As for the Doctor's personality, I wouldn't necessarily call him "the opposite" of a child. Yes he's ancient and has seen more than we could ever imagine but he also has a naive excitable streak that's best described as childlike.
The problem then is that you might well have two Doctors running around, especially if he tries to see them before they grow old. Thats always put a bit of a strain on the timeline (which is why multi-Doctor stories have always been a special occasion thing). And with all the paradoxes and rogue temporal stresses already in place, having two Doctors in the same time and location, even if they never meet, could do exactly what he says it mightGizmo1990 said:
River was upset at the Doctor for wasting his regeneration power because they have a limited number of regenerations (remember that River used up all of her regenerations to cure the Doctor from poison). So he basically killed one of his "lives" to cure something that would have healed on its own in a couple months.
Emotionally, yeah, this was a good episode. ESPECIALLY the rooftop/paradox scene.
Plotline wise? Yup, a mess. In a Radiotimes, Moffat talks about doing numerous drafts of this episode, and I'm afraid to say that it shows. The paradox-Amy&Rory-jumping-together-cause-they're-a-couple should have been the same event as the event that got them trapped in the past away from the Doctor. Instead, the final five minutes of the episode feel kinda like "Hang on, didn't we just do this?"
I enjoy timey-wimey episodes, which is something the Angels do best, but this just felt, well, like too much 'wimey' and not enough 'timey'. We've seen the Dr trick fixed points in the past - why-oh-why couldn't he this time?!
Plotline wise? Yup, a mess. In a Radiotimes, Moffat talks about doing numerous drafts of this episode, and I'm afraid to say that it shows. The paradox-Amy&Rory-jumping-together-cause-they're-a-couple should have been the same event as the event that got them trapped in the past away from the Doctor. Instead, the final five minutes of the episode feel kinda like "Hang on, didn't we just do this?"
I enjoy timey-wimey episodes, which is something the Angels do best, but this just felt, well, like too much 'wimey' and not enough 'timey'. We've seen the Dr trick fixed points in the past - why-oh-why couldn't he this time?!
Would he not know? Say he chooses the day after they are sent back. If he had already visited that day would he not remember and choose the day after that? Or a day afetr his past self had left? This is the problem with using time travel as an excuse for why he can never see them again.Pallindromemordnillap said:
I feel like it was the worst handled "oops I suddenly died" scene since Sirius Black tripped and fell through that conveniently placed magical death curtain. Or even more relevant, like in Season 5 when Rory tripped and fell through the crack in time. Dammit Rory, just PAY ATTENTION, GEEZ.
Eh, I don't buy that he used up a whole regen just to heal her wrist. But even if he did, they're his to use.Azuaron said:
To be fair the writer changeover with the arrival of old boney-face Matt Smith saw a massive slide in the quality of writing for the show.
They couldn't kill off Amy and Rory by having them jump off the roof in a suicide pact, in show that is aimed at 7-70. Which left Moffat (great name for star wars villain) with a problem, hence the tacked on feeling of the ending. I suspect if I was more engaged with Amy and Rory, I would have been on more of an emotional roller coaster and over look some of the plot holes. As it was I was just sad that we wont be seeing more of Rory's Dad than anything else.
The way they have spun the current character of the doctor is as an adrenaline junkie, perhaps with a touch of PTSD. They have done this in order to give a reason for the Dr needing companions. As the article points out he is an entity with almost god like powers why does he need anyone at all. If the companions are there to give him emotional support, it moves them away from being just convenient plot deceives. The companions originally were away of allowing the Dr someone to have expositionary conversations with and to rescue from peril. The companions also were away of either giving someone for the kids to identify with (Adric and Ace) or someone to keep the dads interested (Leela or Romana). I don't think they have got the right tone yet, currently the Dr seems way to needy and like the guy who you hope doesn't sit next you.
The way they have spun the current character of the doctor is as an adrenaline junkie, perhaps with a touch of PTSD. They have done this in order to give a reason for the Dr needing companions. As the article points out he is an entity with almost god like powers why does he need anyone at all. If the companions are there to give him emotional support, it moves them away from being just convenient plot deceives. The companions originally were away of allowing the Dr someone to have expositionary conversations with and to rescue from peril. The companions also were away of either giving someone for the kids to identify with (Adric and Ace) or someone to keep the dads interested (Leela or Romana). I don't think they have got the right tone yet, currently the Dr seems way to needy and like the guy who you hope doesn't sit next you.
Overall I enjoyed the episode, but I do agree with the rather poorly thought out paradoxes and "wibbly-wobbly, timey-wimey" stuff. Blink did it amazingly. For example the doctor recording the video based on the conversation that Sally Sparrow had with the doctor on the video. It seems that Moffet focused all his effort on the emotional plot points with Rorya dn Amy leaving. Those were good, but it wasn't a complete episode. I was especially disapointed at how River showing up and the collector weren't even attempted to be explained.
Still it was a good send off. I liked Rory and Amy, but one of the things I liked about the first 4 seasons was that the companions never stayed too long. Rory and Amy were getting stale. They were great characters, but it was past time for them to move on. I look forward to seeing how Oswin gets worked in as the new companion after she was (supposedly) killed when the asylm of the Daleks blew up.
Still it was a good send off. I liked Rory and Amy, but one of the things I liked about the first 4 seasons was that the companions never stayed too long. Rory and Amy were getting stale. They were great characters, but it was past time for them to move on. I look forward to seeing how Oswin gets worked in as the new companion after she was (supposedly) killed when the asylm of the Daleks blew up.
Hey Susan, what's your opinion on the mid season break?
Back OT: Yeah, the Statue of Liberty was a bit silly. If the bit was the size of the Moon. But on the other hand, how creepy is a Weeping Angel 'farm'?
And that paradox...that moment...
Also there's a subtext that coffee is evil!
Back OT: Yeah, the Statue of Liberty was a bit silly. If the bit was the size of the Moon. But on the other hand, how creepy is a Weeping Angel 'farm'?
And that paradox...that moment...
Also there's a subtext that coffee is evil!
Like I said in another thread on this episode, it feels like they tried to cram too much into 45 minutes. It should have been a less complex story, or a two part episode. For me, the drama of the story was somewhat dampened by the confusing, way too high paced plot. Also, the Liberty Angel was seriously pointless and am I the only one to think that this was by far the least scary episode featuring the Weeping Angels?
It's weird, but I actually ENJOYED this episode.
Maybe even more then the previous ones of their particular season/series.
Yes, it was cramped, full of 'stuff', but I enjoyed how things never really 'stopped'.
Though, I do have the same issue with The Doctor being 'the guy we all pity'
But, it's not like it's anything new.
I mean, the first Doctor was basically being 'cared for' by his granddaughter.
Maybe even more then the previous ones of their particular season/series.
Yes, it was cramped, full of 'stuff', but I enjoyed how things never really 'stopped'.
Though, I do have the same issue with The Doctor being 'the guy we all pity'
But, it's not like it's anything new.
I mean, the first Doctor was basically being 'cared for' by his granddaughter.
I think companions are supposed to be the Doctor's moral compass. The Doctor has shown to not be using his own over the past couple of years. Even beforehand in Tennant's years Donna was very much a guide for the Doctor's actions (Fires of Pompeii for example where she forced him to go back and rescue someone, anyone, because that was better than nothing). The Doctor even tells Rose that the clone grown from his hand that genocided the Daleks was him before they first met, and "You (Rose) made me better". Especially after the events he had to shake off regarding the Time War.
With the regards to the actual story, the whole reason behind the paradox and the Doctor not being able to go back to rescue Rory at the end is explained near the start of the episode when the Doctor tells Amy she can't read to the end of the book because it forces the events to happen. Rory found out that he was going to die in that apartment building so they had to force a paradox to stop it. He saw his own name on the gravestone just before being zapped by the Angel so the Doctor couldn't go rescue him as it would cause another, bigger paradox. Amy's name wasn't originally on the gravestone but after she made the choice to follow Rory back, the Doctor could no longer follow because he knows her fate and can't change it without making a bigger mess.
The same point is made throughout the episode, the Doctor is originally ecstatic that River managed to free herself from the Angel without breaking her wrist as he had been told by Amy that he would "break something", so he thought he could change predetermined future without much effort. The fact that River had to break her wrist in order to free herself reinforced the idea the episode created about forced futures through knowledge.
Whether you agree with the science behind idea presented in the episode or not, it's reinforced throughout to explain the story.
11's reaction to losing Amy and Rory is what I think is most important about the episode, something I've seen very little other reviewers or fans talk about. Smith's Doctor is openly distraught at the turn of events at the end of the episode, much more so than Tennant. Who either a) Appeared emotionless to Rose and didn't even cry until she was gone. b) Didn't even try to stop Martha (yeah she didn't die or anything but he still could have showed some sadness). c) The Doctor-Donna's death by his own hand had him show very little outward emotion. Even the obvious sacrifice he made for Wilf was drastically underpinned by his "It's just not fair. This is my reward" speech. Which was more general shouting at the universe and not getting his own way.
11 looks for the first time since the series started again, genuinly upset at the loss of Amy and Rory. Maybe something to do with the whole "First face this face saw. You are seared onto my hearts forever" thing.
Yeah the Statue of Liberty thing was a bit much, but it only appeared twice and didn't end up being a stupid end boss or anything so it didn't bother me too much. Other than that I much enjoyed this episode, very emotional by the end.
With the regards to the actual story, the whole reason behind the paradox and the Doctor not being able to go back to rescue Rory at the end is explained near the start of the episode when the Doctor tells Amy she can't read to the end of the book because it forces the events to happen. Rory found out that he was going to die in that apartment building so they had to force a paradox to stop it. He saw his own name on the gravestone just before being zapped by the Angel so the Doctor couldn't go rescue him as it would cause another, bigger paradox. Amy's name wasn't originally on the gravestone but after she made the choice to follow Rory back, the Doctor could no longer follow because he knows her fate and can't change it without making a bigger mess.
The same point is made throughout the episode, the Doctor is originally ecstatic that River managed to free herself from the Angel without breaking her wrist as he had been told by Amy that he would "break something", so he thought he could change predetermined future without much effort. The fact that River had to break her wrist in order to free herself reinforced the idea the episode created about forced futures through knowledge.
Whether you agree with the science behind idea presented in the episode or not, it's reinforced throughout to explain the story.
11's reaction to losing Amy and Rory is what I think is most important about the episode, something I've seen very little other reviewers or fans talk about. Smith's Doctor is openly distraught at the turn of events at the end of the episode, much more so than Tennant. Who either a) Appeared emotionless to Rose and didn't even cry until she was gone. b) Didn't even try to stop Martha (yeah she didn't die or anything but he still could have showed some sadness). c) The Doctor-Donna's death by his own hand had him show very little outward emotion. Even the obvious sacrifice he made for Wilf was drastically underpinned by his "It's just not fair. This is my reward" speech. Which was more general shouting at the universe and not getting his own way.
11 looks for the first time since the series started again, genuinly upset at the loss of Amy and Rory. Maybe something to do with the whole "First face this face saw. You are seared onto my hearts forever" thing.
Yeah the Statue of Liberty thing was a bit much, but it only appeared twice and didn't end up being a stupid end boss or anything so it didn't bother me too much. Other than that I much enjoyed this episode, very emotional by the end.
