Get Rid of the Dang Arrows
Game developers are a bit too eager to load up a game's HUD with info.
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Game developers are a bit too eager to load up a game's HUD with info.
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Get Rid of the Dang Arrows
- Thread starter Yahtzee Croshaw
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Eh, I actually rather like the markers. They let me know where to go last after I've explored everywhere else. Few things irritate me like accidentally stumbling into the next level/area/cutscene before I've explored to my heart's content.
I do find their presence in linear games a bit puzzling though. I'd prefer that they simply make the path clear through the level layout, Valve-style. Then again, that's much easier said than done.
I do find their presence in linear games a bit puzzling though. I'd prefer that they simply make the path clear through the level layout, Valve-style. Then again, that's much easier said than done.
And yet, my biggest criticism of Halo 4 is the lack of a compass in multiplayer. I mean, come on! I get that it's not an adventure game, but do you have any idea how easy it is to get disoriented during a firefight? Trying to co-ordinate with a team on Solace was a nightmare. THEY'RE BY THE DIRTY BASE!
WHICH WAY IS THAT?!
Warfighter is clearly an example of too much handholding - especially since the presence of a GUI in a 'realistic' shooter is just plain meta-gaming, whereas Halo 4 has a perfectly canon reason to have compasses in multiplayer and just plain doesn't.
WHICH WAY IS THAT?!
Warfighter is clearly an example of too much handholding - especially since the presence of a GUI in a 'realistic' shooter is just plain meta-gaming, whereas Halo 4 has a perfectly canon reason to have compasses in multiplayer and just plain doesn't.
Yeah, I dont have problem with quest markers like that in open games. God knows, im one of those poor bastards that sometimes needs to be lead by the nose as I couldnt find it on my own sometimes.Zhukov said:
But in linear games, they do seem odd.
This discussion of exploration reminds me of the original Legend of Zelda. You aren't really given a direction as to where to start and you're just left to explore the world and find the dungeons that are stepping stones to saving Hyrule. I remember getting lost there, but it was fun because it seemed like a new experience every time I started it up and found a whole new area to die in. Wish more games let you figure stuff out like that, but perhaps not to the same ridiculous degree.
Maybe a game where you start off with a blank map, and as you explore, the map becomes visible and as you interact with world objects, it would get marked up to indicate things you explored, things you changed, things you (the player) marked for some significance, etc. It essentially takes the map ideas of Minecraft and Silent Hill and combines them into something that encourages exploration while helping you keep track of where you've been. And probably make it a non-mini-map thing. If you want to know where you're going, open the map up and actually look at it rather than taking your eyes away from the environment to focus on the mini-map.
Maybe a game where you start off with a blank map, and as you explore, the map becomes visible and as you interact with world objects, it would get marked up to indicate things you explored, things you changed, things you (the player) marked for some significance, etc. It essentially takes the map ideas of Minecraft and Silent Hill and combines them into something that encourages exploration while helping you keep track of where you've been. And probably make it a non-mini-map thing. If you want to know where you're going, open the map up and actually look at it rather than taking your eyes away from the environment to focus on the mini-map.
I have to say, markers telling me what I had to blow up in Halo 4 didn't really decrease my enjoyment of the game.
I'm all for it, if environments are sufficiently varied enough with distinct landmarks for navigation, and I can still read a journal entry telling me to turn north at the big tree or whatever. I do not relish a return to mapping identical dungeon corridors by hand like we had to in the 8-bit/16-bit RPG days. That means no samey-brown sand/rock corridors or samey-grey metal corridors.
I agree about the map in AC3. Hunting down all 100 feathers in AC2 was sometimes torturous experience, and sometimes I wonder to this day why I bothered, but I stuck at it, and it felt incredibly satisfying to have my hard work rewarded. Since then however, you can buy maps that give you the locations of all the feathers, as well as other collectibles, and to be honest it kind of defeats the point of having them in the first place. It stops being a scavenger hunt, where the player is rewarded for their keen senses and problem solving skills, and while at times frustrating is always compelling due to the nature of man wanting to solve problems. Instead, it just becoms another instruction "There. There's a thing Player. Go on. Fetch."
Good read! Big, flashing arrows really should be a last resort, instead of the main means of orientation. Perhaps someone could start a kickstarter project, patent them and blackmail all developers to only use them responsibly?
Now, old ArmA II did have some pointy arrows showing the general area you where supposed to reach here and there, but thankfully, there weren't too many of them to spoil the open world concept. Usually, it went like "Boris Genocidevitj is probably hiding in a rebel camp somewhere inside this huge forest, about half an hour's drive from here. Ask the locals for directions, if you're lucky, they might know something specific", and then you'd drive your little crew around the countryside looking for clues or completing sidequests. I feel that's the way to do it, there's no use having an open world if you're not going to let things get a bit organic.
Not to say more linear games have any excuse, there's even less of a reason to point everything out with flashing arrows when you're indoors. A special door is a possibility to let the player feel smart and happy to progress, not just something you park an arrow over and call it a day.
Although a pointy arrow could be useful as a last resort mechanic in a more difficult puzzle game. Something akin to Amnesia, perhaps. If you really can't for the life of you find the solution to a puzzle after half an hour and about twenty canteens of oil, then maybe you could opt to sacrifice a bit of your health for a hint-arrow. Of course, it's all hinging on it being costly enough to use to discourage people from abusing it, but it could be a neat last way out.
Now, old ArmA II did have some pointy arrows showing the general area you where supposed to reach here and there, but thankfully, there weren't too many of them to spoil the open world concept. Usually, it went like "Boris Genocidevitj is probably hiding in a rebel camp somewhere inside this huge forest, about half an hour's drive from here. Ask the locals for directions, if you're lucky, they might know something specific", and then you'd drive your little crew around the countryside looking for clues or completing sidequests. I feel that's the way to do it, there's no use having an open world if you're not going to let things get a bit organic.
Not to say more linear games have any excuse, there's even less of a reason to point everything out with flashing arrows when you're indoors. A special door is a possibility to let the player feel smart and happy to progress, not just something you park an arrow over and call it a day.
Although a pointy arrow could be useful as a last resort mechanic in a more difficult puzzle game. Something akin to Amnesia, perhaps. If you really can't for the life of you find the solution to a puzzle after half an hour and about twenty canteens of oil, then maybe you could opt to sacrifice a bit of your health for a hint-arrow. Of course, it's all hinging on it being costly enough to use to discourage people from abusing it, but it could be a neat last way out.
This article has inspired me to play Skyrim with the quest markers turned off and no fast travelling. Lets see how long this lasts once I actually start playing.
"there's not a single slightly significant thing in that game that doesn't sport a massive indicator on the minimap"
Wow, I actually had to read that like 5 times and simplify it down to understand it.
Also, while a lot of people like to say "well turn them off and enjoy the game properly" I'm one of those gamers that almost instinctively tries to utilize everything for efficiency's sake. So even if I try to immerse myself by turning everything off, there's always a nagging feeling in the back of my head to turn it all back on.
Wow, I actually had to read that like 5 times and simplify it down to understand it.
Also, while a lot of people like to say "well turn them off and enjoy the game properly" I'm one of those gamers that almost instinctively tries to utilize everything for efficiency's sake. So even if I try to immerse myself by turning everything off, there's always a nagging feeling in the back of my head to turn it all back on.
I've actually heard some complaints that the quests don't give you enough information to do them without the markers or at least you'll be severely hindered.Storm Dragon said:
I found I enjoyed Dishonored far more once I turned the quest markers off.
In a game that has environments that stunning its a travesty that they put a big white marker on the screen at all times shouting "Your target is here numbnuts!"
Having to scout out areas finding clues of where your target might be was far more rewarding.
In a game that has environments that stunning its a travesty that they put a big white marker on the screen at all times shouting "Your target is here numbnuts!"
Having to scout out areas finding clues of where your target might be was far more rewarding.
I don't know, I kind of appreciate having objective markers in open world games like Skyrim or Just Cause 2 which I've recently started playing. If I want to explore, I'll explore, but when I want to get my current quest/mission done I want to know where to go right away and not have to bother trying to figure out where I have to go and how to get there. In other words, I want to cut right to the juicy bits.
Well in linear games sure.
Get rid of them. They don't make sense.
But I'd really like to have some form of waypoint in large open world games (at minimum just a map with marked names and then a compass).
Get rid of them. They don't make sense.
But I'd really like to have some form of waypoint in large open world games (at minimum just a map with marked names and then a compass).
And on the flip side of things, Team Fortress 2 again. The developers got tired of designing the payload maps with intuitive, linear routes and just tossed Left 4 Dead's magic highlighting thingamabob onto the cart so players could see where it is through the walls. Other than the HUD itself, it's the only element of the game that doesn't pretend to be a real part of the world, and it takes players out of the game. Then they added it to the intel briefcase because apparently a prominent arrow pointing in its general direction wasn't good enough. And now Portal 2 does the same thing with portals, which I'm sure comes in handy in co-op but why did we have to suffer through it in single-player?Yahtzee Croshaw said:
I'm guessing Yahtzee is not a fan of that trend either.
When I read this, the first thing I thought was "but, those city maps in Saints Row 2 - or whereever - are confusing when you first start playing. It can be hard to figure out which streets get you where you're going! Just like in a real city -"Yahtzee said:
At which point my brain said "well, how do you get around in a real city with no objective marker?"
And my brain then responded "with GPS, which tells me when to turn"
....
So yeah, there's my idea about how to replace mini maps and objective markers in sandbox Crime games. Have an option for an actual in-game GPS to tell you when and where to turn, but without showing you. All audio, or maybe a little HUDs left, right, straight light at the bottom of the screen that doesn't use a map.
And give players who like objective markers the option to use them anyway. But that way those that want a more organic experience can have one.