The Design of Consuming Shadow

[Yahtzee Croshaw]

The Design of Consuming Shadow

Yahtzee lays out some of the design decisions behind his latest game, Consuming Shadow.

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[Grach]

So does that mean that Consuming Shadow will be refused classification in Australia then?

 

[Evonisia]

You're right, drugs are good for you. I think I might download the game, there's just not much time for me to play it.

Well. I reserve the right to change my opinion, I'm not an Easter Island head. Looking forward to changing my opinion on next-gen consoles just as soon as you stop proving me right all the time, lads. Above all else, you must be open to being persuaded, otherwise you turn into one half of a shouty Fox News debate that goes absolutely nowhere.

I assume this is directed at the responses to last week's ZP. I think it's more "PC Supremacy commentary is boring or will be boring very fast" as opposed to "Next Gen consoles are good and you should totally like them".

 

[antidonkey]

Well, if the goal of this article was to get me interested in the game then well done. I am now very, very curious about it. I've always enjoyed various random aspects to games......even larger ones like the Diablo series. However, they are more effective in the shorter ones like he mentioned. I shall promptly download when I get home. Of course, I'll probably also promptly forget about for a few month but I tend to do that with all games.

 

[TiberiusEsuriens]

It seems Yahtzee shares most of my opinions on randomization in games. It's not that some types of game play are ALWAYS bad, but that some types are inherently harder to do correctly than others. Diablo indeed had some really sucky rare mob combinations. In particular, once I got to the hardest difficulty as a Barbarian, I was stuck fighting mobs that insta-killed anything in melee range and had fast-regen health. As a solo player, I didn't have a buddy to pull me through that, and after several more occurrences of something similar I got tired of it and stopped playing. Granted, the lack of useful loot might have been a factor, too -_-

 

[RJ Dalton]

You know what, that actually sounds interesting. And I did enjoy Poacher. I think I'll give this a try.

 

[Phrozenflame500]

Because with a PC, I have to install everthing. I need to install Steam, need to install the games, need to install patchs, need to install updates, need to install the mods, need to install the drivers etc. And even after all that, there are no guarantees that the game will play.

Dude what kind of backwards-ass voodoo cursed computer do you use? For most of us it's install game, play. Unless you're playing a 15-year old game that requires that compatibility hoop jumping it shouldn't be that hard.

OT: Really enjoying the game. I figured out fairly early on that investing in illegal drugs is an important strategy (never thought I'd say that) for late-game. I like the puzzle aspect with the banishment ritual, having to pay attention to the runes on the walls and piecing everything together is really interesting.

 

[Ophiuchus]

Some testers have expressed frustration at dying from suicide after coming quite far. Well, good. That's the idea.

Personally, I found that to be the good sort of frustration. The kind of thing that makes me say something like "gahhh, fuck you, right, let's go again". Which is quite something given that my general tolerance for frustrating elements in games is minimal. So, yep, really enjoying this game. I haven't managed to beat it yet, but I think I'm at the point now where I might be getting close, barring any unexpected twists.

 

[strumbore]

I played Croshaw's game and for someone who routinely attacks bad writing with [homo]sexual/scatological slurs, his own storytelling is more cringeworthy than what he reviews! For all the randomness, every event encounter is nearly identical to the last in structure. The protagonist doesn't talk like a real person. His manner of speaking sounds so forced, it's almost like he has Asperger's Syndrome.

As far as skill-developing goes, for all the replays I did, I can say without delusion that my deaths were owed much, much more to clunky controls than surprise from new situations. Even as a beta, I expected a more refined game to tinker with from Ben Croshaw. Forget the polish, get back to chiseling.

 

[Covarr]

In other words, put mechanics into games where they belong, and implement them so that they actually add something to the game. That much should be obvious to developers, but it clearly isn't, considering virtually every game has chest-high walls because it was popular in Gears of War. A lot of the time, random procedurally-generated dungeons are an excuse for the dev not to actually design the dungeon properly. I look at games like Terraria and Chasm, and I get really disheartened. Both of those games are often touted as MetroidVania-type games, but what makes an excellent Metroid or Castlevania is carefully crafted worlds to ensure that every single area isn't just good on its own, but connected to the others in a meaningful way. The difficulty curve in Super Metroid is just right, the powerups and bosses are very carefully distributed, and the whole game just works. The more you randomize, the less you can promise a well-paced game.

I like that The Binding of Isaac is used as an example. The whole game is meant to be beaten in a fairly short span of time. While much of the game is random, the parameters surrounding that randomness are actually very careful to make sure the game is always fun. Unlike a MetroidVania game, powerups are not required to advance, only to make the game easier and help with the difficulty curve... and whether you get more hearts, faster rate of fire, or more damage per shot, the powerups are helping. This works because the randomness mechanic barely affects progression; you can get a significantly different experience without it putting you at a major advantage or disadvantage later in the game.

P.S. Thanks

 

[AgentNein]

I played Croshaw's game and for someone who routinely attacks bad writing with [homo]sexual/scatological slurs, his own storytelling is more cringeworthy than what he reviews! For all the randomness, every event encounter is nearly identical to the last in structure. The protagonist doesn't talk like a real person. His manner of speaking sounds so forced, it's almost like he has Asperger's Syndrome.

As far as skill-developing goes, for all the replays I did, I can say without delusion that my deaths were owed much, much more to clunky controls than surprise from new situations. Even as a beta, I expected a more refined game to tinker with from Ben Croshaw. Forget the polish, get back to chiseling.

Well I'd argue that not every story needs characters who talk "like real people". If someone's shooting for "natural dialogue" and failing, then that's one thing, but if he's shooting for a Lovecraftian narrative (which is pretty obvious) I'd say he's succeeding. My only real gripe then is not enough talk of non euclidean geometry.

I do agree on the controls however. A simple doubletap to run added to the movement would be great. The way it is now I can only run by using those giant buttons at the bottom of the screen.

 

[Sledgimus]

Maybe you should download version 1.0.0.1, which introduced keyboard controls. Made a big difference to how much I enjoyed the game, and I liked it when it was just mouse control.

As for the writing, I'm really not sure how I'd talk if I was on a three day quest to save the world from an other-worldly horror while fighting demons. Plus, the character is writing, not talking. The way people express themselves in writing is usually different to how they would speak.

 

[Scow2]

I have to say, on a tangent, that Diablo III's random generation works well for the reason it works in The Consuming Shadow - you ARE expected to run through the game multiple times - either to increase your level, try to get better loot on a second or third of fifty-fourth runthrough, or to kill the monsters in the area because you like how they fight, or want to get better at fighting them, or if you're leveling a second, third, fourth, or fifth character you want to experience the game as.

The other Diablo Clone I play, Titan Quest, really could have done with some randomization in the environments - it's boring seeing and fighting through the same environments and level layouts ten times in a row.

 

[Thaluikhain]

I look forward to bad attempts at ZP parody style reviews of this game.

 

[Steve2911]

Just wanted to be the **** that points out that Diablo 3 is absolutely intended to be played over and over again, and the experience of the 'main campaign' (as in the first time you run normal mode) is secondary because it's not what the game's really about.

The game's real issue of randomness is that it's not random enough. A constant complaint people have had is that the dungeons only have a few variants and the open sections have basically zero randomisation to speak of, outside of which dungeons spawn (usually a choice of two) and the mobs. These are things that the expansion seems to be fixing though, with more procedurally generated areas and Nephalem Rifts (if that's what they're being called at the moment) which completely randomise everything.

Not to say Diablo 3's a great game. The flaws are glaring and awful. It's just sort of wrong to say that randomness works against it.

 

[Arcanist]

The random monster spawning in Consuming Shadow created the issue that you can avoid having to fight anything by leaving and re-entering the room each time a monster spawns, so I made sanity go down if you run away from them. A mechanic which only works if sanity loss is an effective punishment.

You had me up until here.

A real hallmark with Roguelikes - and something I really, really like about them - is that they reinforce how weak you are compared to the monsters of the dungeon by making them much stronger than your character - to the point that, at the time you initially encounter them, you simply have no hope of beating them. This is counterbalanced by one simple idea that many players find hard to understand - just don't fight them.

Sigmund appears on D:2? Just run to the upstairs and come down somewhere else.

Mechaspiders quest? No thanks, I like actually having a crew.

And so on. This only works if players have running as a viable option, and this is something most roguelikes actively give players resources to facilitate(Teleport/Blinking scrolls in Crawl, Staves of Blinking/Obstruction in Brogue, and so forth). Removing it as a viable option by slapping on a debilitating sanity penalty in Consuming Shadows sends the message to players that they HAVE to fight the monsters, even if they can't win with their current gear, which can only lead to frustration.

(Full disclaimer: I haven't played Consuming Shadows yet, and I've heard lots of good things about it, but I think Yahtzee should really reconsider his position here.)

 

[Two-A]

I played Croshaw's game and for someone who routinely attacks bad writing with [homo]sexual/scatological slurs, his own storytelling is more cringeworthy than what he reviews! For all the randomness, every event encounter is nearly identical to the last in structure. The protagonist doesn't talk like a real person. His manner of speaking sounds so forced, it's almost like he has Asperger's Syndrome.

As far as skill-developing goes, for all the replays I did, I can say without delusion that my deaths were owed much, much more to clunky controls than surprise from new situations. Even as a beta, I expected a more refined game to tinker with from Ben Croshaw. Forget the polish, get back to chiseling.

Were you playing the first version? Because the newest one has keyboard controls, it's definitely an improvement.

But yes, the random events could use some more descriptions. And the interactions between family members leave a lot to be desired. But the horror is good.

I do agree on the controls however. A simple doubletap to run added to the movement would be great. The way it is now I can only run by using those giant buttons at the bottom of the screen.

You run with shift and meele with right mouse click, that also frustrated me at first. Turns out he posted the new controls in his blog.

 

[deserteagleeye]

Played the game quite a bit and enjoyed it for the most part. Since it's a beta I can forgive some repeated narrative text. There was something that bugged me about the last dungeon though. Usually the dungeons have a key that opens all the doors in that area but the Stonehenge dungeon does not. I searched every area that wasn't behind a locked door and I couldn't find the key. Does this mean I have to depend on my limited lockpicks that rarely opens doors? If so then it would be annoying to have to leave the dungeon to waste like 4+ hours to buy more lockpicks if I'm lucky enough to be next to a town that hasn't been destroyed and trek the same dungeon again.

 

[strumbore]

I would recommend Croshaw consider doing three things:

(-) Remove silhouette-clicking as the focus of gameplay.
(+) MAKE branching narrative paths the focus of gameplay, a-la "Choose Your Own Adventure"
(...) As it stands right now, you click monsters until they die and the narrator describes fleeting events of little consequence to collect random clues. Flip it around. Make decision making in random but carefully constructed encounters paramount. ***Make those choices up the probability of more intricately designed encounters/dungeons appearing*** so that combat and level design is INTERESTING instead of repetitive.

(-) Downplay combat
(+) Implement puzzles
(...) As it stands right now, the game isn't fun. It's bland and repetitious nature doesn't hold attention well enough to get into the story because all your time is wasted clicking shadows and starting over. Make shooting/hacking-away less prevalent in moving the story forward. Make puzzle and mystery-solving more important in moving the story forward. Straight-up "logic puzzles" aren't fun for most people, avoid those. Make solving puzzles involve attention to detail in the narrative and the environments, and provide MEANINGFUL REWARDS for the player solving them (exp. points AND plot progression).

(-) Focus on writing the narrative(s)
(+) Recruit an artist
(...) Write those branching narratives, have someone else detail the characters and environments. Provide only the design concepts based on your narrative.

 

[strumbore]

Maybe you should download version 1.0.0.1, which introduced keyboard controls. Made a big difference to how much I enjoyed the game, and I liked it when it was just mouse control.

I did, and I experimented with mouse, button, and keypad controls for feedback. Either way, movement is choppy and every other bullet sails over the enemy's head when they are within 10 feet of the character. Croshaw needs to revamp how bullet trajectory is calculated in his game. I noticed an inconsistent delay between shots, and this was on a "fast" computer.

I hesitate to criticize the game for bland environments and crude character design because this is just a beta, but I really hope Croshaw hires someone to redesign them. The minimalist design with silhouette characters could work well but it needs to be revamped and expanded. Out of all the random dungeons I entered in the game (12+), one was a park, one was made of cinderblocks, and 10 were blank-slate office buildings. In each case, I encountered the same 3 monsters, 2 of which are Japanese horror archetypes and one visiting from Silent Hill. If there was another, it was not memorable enough to distinguish.

As for the writing, I'm really not sure how I'd talk if I was on a three day quest to save the world from an other-worldly horror while fighting demons. Plus, the character is writing, not talking. The way people express themselves in writing is usually different to how they would speak.

That's true, but to get right down to brass tacks, Ben Croshaw is a very one-dimensional character writer. I have read his work. Short stories on Fullyramblomatic.com, as well as excerpts from Mogworld and JAM! All his characters are singularly focused ("singularly focused"=/="determined") and there is an omnipresent, awkward tension between his characters at all times. His stories, even the short ones that flow well ("Mr. M and Mr. S" comes to mind), are ultimately grating. Writing fiction is very difficult, but nothing worth doing is easy and Ben Croshaw is the last person who deserves a "pass" for not improving his method.

I played Croshaw's game for nearly 2 hours, not just because I wanted to be thorough, but because I like the concept: A sci-fi noir where you utilize scarce resources to uncover clues to your enemy's nature (and consequentially the method of your salvation)--clues which change randomly to encourage logical reasoning. The death clock feature and how the towns/options change to reflect man's impending doom is meant to provide a sense of urgency. But even as the towns transformed and my character slowly went insane, I was bored.

Pointing and clicking at crude, lumbering 2D silhouettes isn't fun.

Most "encounters" (the narrator describes a random event he's stumbling upon) are nearly indistinguishable from each other.

There were no difficult puzzles to solve. Story completion revolved, intentionally or not, on clicking toe-tag monster silhouettes in virtually identical dungeons, over and over again, to stumble--RANDOMLY--across clues. The clues are used to solve a very boring type of logic puzzle (set theory?), maybe the only puzzle in the game.

I would recommend Croshaw consider doing three things:

(-) Remove silhouette-clicking as the focus of gameplay.
(+) MAKE branching narrative paths the focus of gameplay, a-la "Choose Your Own Adventure"
(...) As it stands right now, you click monsters until they die and the narrator describes fleeting events of little consequence to collect random clues. Flip it around. Make decision making in random but carefully constructed encounters paramount. ***Make those choices up the probability of more intricately designed encounters/dungeons appearing*** so that combat and level design is INTERESTING instead of repetitive.

(-) Downplay combat
(+) Implement puzzles
(...) As it stands right now, the game isn't fun. It's bland and repetitious nature doesn't hold attention well enough to get into the story because all your time is wasted clicking shadows and starting over. Make shooting/hacking-away less prevalent in moving the story forward. Make puzzle and mystery-solving more important in moving the story forward. Straight-up "logic puzzles" aren't fun for most people, avoid those. Make solving puzzles involve attention to detail in the narrative and the environments, and provide MEANINGFUL REWARDS for the player solving them (exp. points AND plot progression).

(-) Focus on writing the narrative(s)
(+) Recruit an artist
(...) Write those branching narratives, have someone else detail the characters and environments. Provide only the design concepts based on your narrative.