Lords of Shadow 2 Might Have Been Good, Had Dracula Been Evil

[Yahtzee Croshaw]

Lords of Shadow 2 Might Have Been Good, Had Dracula Been Evil

As is all too common in AAA development, a complete lack of focus in Castlevania: Lords of Shadow 2 resulted in an experience that was equally diverse and shallow.

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[gadjo]

I like the idea of not giving Dracula an "even more evil" foil, but I wouldn't just want it to be a standard "villain protagonist" setup where you play the bad guy wreckin' shit up just to be a bad guy. You would need to give him some kind of sympathetic reason to be doing so. I kind of want to see Drac try to act like a king and get pushed off as a bum, try to go back to living the way he used to, only to find out that doesn't really belong in modern times. It would make for some great non-standard character motivation. I get sick of the "I must protect my loved one!/My loved one is DEAD!" motivation that every other game (or piece of any media for that matter) seems to be in love with. It comes across as lazy when that's a character's only motive for their actions; the story gets pushed aside in favor of a masturbatory revenge fantasy.

 

[SnakeoilSage]

A game about Dracula rebuilding his power in the modern era could work, but I refer to movies like Dracula: 2000, which is so much shite on toast you can't eat it without the toast getting soaked through and turned into mush. No one wants to eat it then.

No, set it a hundred years after he conked out. Pick an era where Europe is basically skullfucking itself with diseases and war, and have Dracula emerge to soak up all that human misery into one giant ball of screaming angst. Massacre a few petty kingdoms to reclaim his power base, weather the invasion of first righteous crusader-types, then a big evil force contending for Dracula's throne, and end it with a battle against his first Belmont, sparking off the "here's where our legendary rivalry begins" kind of note.

 

[luvd1]

I like the sound of evil version of Pokemon. I would play that little b!tch like a horny dog who's just escaped from the vets on his way to having the snip. On topic, it's a sad day in gaming when you can't gave the villain as the main character, that's just uninteresting. Give me a legacy of Kain game, no one in those games where anywhere heroic. Feked up world with feked up people who just wanted to fek each other up. No heros, all villains.

 

[Evonisia]

It's a shame that Dracula can be buggered up so much, but when appealing to the mass audience it's what you get.

There's never really been an issue with making the typical hero the villain either. From the villain's perspective (outside of Saturday morning cartoons) the hero leaping in is just some person trying to ruin your fun. Perhaps they could make our character not flawed but just irritated by that annoying fella trying to keep society clean and in order. Sure it wouldn't really make us connect with him but it wouldn't disturb the fun. Saints Row 2 pulled it off with Ultor and the police.

 

[luvd1]

A game about Dracula rebuilding his power in the modern era could work, but I refer to movies like Dracula: 2000, which is so much shite on toast you can't eat it without the toast getting soaked through and turned into mush. No one wants to eat it then.

No, set it a hundred years after he conked out. Pick an era where Europe is basically skullfucking itself with diseases and war, and have Dracula emerge to soak up all that human misery into one giant ball of screaming angst. Massacre a few petty kingdoms to reclaim his power base, weather the invasion of first righteous crusader-types, then a big evil force contending for Dracula's throne, and end it with a battle against his first Belmont, sparking off the "here's where our legendary rivalry begins" kind of note.

Now that's a game. Where do I put my preorder?

 

[Fanghawk]

Instead of a lone hero placed into a world where everything's fucked and having to fight their way to a better world, we place a lone villain in a world where everything's perfectly fine, and have them fight their way to turning it into the kind of situation a heroic character might want to come along and fix.

That makes me think of Stubbs the Zombie. You've got the city of Punchbowl, which looks like a perfect sci-fi environment as imagined in the 1950s, then Stubbs crawls out of the ground and creates the zombie hordes that will (eventually) destroy everything. And somewhere along the way, the player figures out that Punchbowl probably wasn't a perfect place to begin with.

 

[GabeZhul]

No, set it a hundred years after he conked out. Pick an era where Europe is basically skullfucking itself with diseases and war, and have Dracula emerge to soak up all that human misery into one giant ball of screaming angst. Massacre a few petty kingdoms to reclaim his power base, weather the invasion of first righteous crusader-types, then a big evil force contending for Dracula's throne, and end it with a battle against his first Belmont, sparking off the "here's where our legendary rivalry begins" kind of note.

Or, you know, make him lawful evil instead of the chaotic evil idiot he is usually portrayed

I mean seriously? The elders in the Brotherhood of Light screwed him over, God screwed him over, he had all the right in the world to be pissed and go on a rampage of revenge, and what does Gabriel Belmont do? Recruit monsters and kills peasants who had nothing to do with all his angst issues, just because apparently that's what all "evil" people are required to do! Am I the only one who sees the disconnect?

So yeah, have this: As per above, Dracula awakens in a pestilence-ridden crapsack medieval world and begins to take over the land... and then people realize that living under the stable rule of a single despot is still better than living under the constant threat of a myriad of despots, and Dracula would end up being the best alternative, which puts both Drac and the heroes trying to beat him into a hard position they have no experience with.

But of course we cannot have that, since apparently developers are too afraid to play the "Dark is not Evil" card and instead rely on the "good ol'" good vs evil (or at least ambiguously evil vs insane evil) tropes...

 

[Gaijinko]

How about the main antagonist is a plucky hero who doesn't really appear until the second half of the game where you have all your powers back and rule the world. Have it end that no matter how good you play the good guy wins so you can see how WE play the games from the villian's point of view.

 

[bunnielovekins]

Not sure how there would be any challenge whatsoever to this hypothetical game yahtzee suggests. Still, it'd at least be interesting.

Also, it sort of sounds like overlord, though the overlord is a bit more useless and the game isn't quite as good as I'd have liked.

 

[Thanatos2k]

In summary, previous Castlevania games just did it so much better. It's baffling how the series has gotten to this point, really. And I even liked the first Lords of Shadow game, but it seems the developers became massively lazy. Or scared to try something. It is Konami's fault? It could be.

 

[Thanatos2k]

No, set it a hundred years after he conked out. Pick an era where Europe is basically skullfucking itself with diseases and war, and have Dracula emerge to soak up all that human misery into one giant ball of screaming angst. Massacre a few petty kingdoms to reclaim his power base, weather the invasion of first righteous crusader-types, then a big evil force contending for Dracula's throne, and end it with a battle against his first Belmont, sparking off the "here's where our legendary rivalry begins" kind of note.

Or, you know, make him lawful evil instead of the chaotic evil idiot he is usually portrayed

I mean seriously? The elders in the Brotherhood of Light screwed him over, God screwed him over, he had all the right in the world to be pissed and go on a rampage of revenge, and what does Gabriel Belmont do? Recruit monsters and kills peasants who had nothing to do with all his angst issues, just because apparently that's what all "evil" people are required to do! Am I the only one who sees the disconnect?

So yeah, have this: As per above, Dracula awakens in a pestilence-ridden crapsack medieval world and begins to take over the land... and then people realize that living under the stable rule of a single despot is still better than living under the constant threat of a myriad of despots, and Dracula would end up being the best alternative, which puts both Drac and the heroes trying to beat him into a hard position they have no experience with.

But of course we cannot have that, since apparently developers are too afraid to play the "Dark is not Evil" card and instead rely on the "good ol'" good vs evil (or at least ambiguously evil vs insane evil) tropes...

Yeah, he could be more of a Doctor Doom, where he rules his little country and tries to take over the world, but his people still love him.

 

[VoidOfOne]

I would not want to play a game where the protagonist is evil.

But I would not want to play this game, either. And, quite frankly, the game's portrayal of Dracula missed a huge opportunity.

Personally, I hated that they made Gabriel into Dracula, which stopped me from getting the series. Because I didn't want to play a bad character. Now, they made him into a bad character in almost every way, except in being a bad mofo'.

Yeah, for all the emphasis they put into the storytelling with this series, they don't tell a good story. Figures.

 

[Joabbuac]

I would not want to play a game where the protagonist is evil.

Why not......

 

[VoidOfOne]

I would not want to play a game where the protagonist is evil.

Why not......

Personal choice. I never could bring myself to be mostly, or solely, evil in any game I play, especially those with the options, such as KOTOR, Skyrim, Mass Effect, and so on. That's just how I play; I want to escape into a world where I'm the hero. Games like GTA, Saint's Row, Overlord and other games with such morality never appealed to me. I'm not that gamer; I'm not the intended audience for those games.

And I'm okay with that, because everyone has their own tastes. And hopefully, for gamers, there are several games that they can appeal to.

 

[Under_your_bed]

You don't have to make the protagonist heroic. A character who was once at the peak of villainous power, now with everything taken away and trapped in an unfamiliar world, that is a character that can be presented as sympathetic even if he did once spear babies on cocktail sticks to put in his blood martini. A character needn't be righteous and good to be intriguing and likeable, they just have to show a bit of weakness, flaw, and emotion.

For an example where this has worked like a charm, look no further than Cthulhu saves the World [http://store.steampowered.com/app/107310/]. That was a very fun deconstruction of the usual Hero archetypes.

So maybe you don't have to pit him against an even bigger bastard for the good of all mankind. Maybe Dracula could arrive in a world where everything is fine, and then declare, fuck fine, I'm Dracula. I don't do fine.

Did someone say Dungeon Keeper? [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dungeon_Keeper]

EDIT:

No, set it a hundred years after he conked out. Pick an era where Europe is basically skullfucking itself with diseases and war, and have Dracula emerge to soak up all that human misery into one giant ball of screaming angst. Massacre a few petty kingdoms to reclaim his power base, weather the invasion of first righteous crusader-types

Be careful you don't cut yourself on that edge....

 

[Darth_Payn]

No, set it a hundred years after he conked out. Pick an era where Europe is basically skullfucking itself with diseases and war, and have Dracula emerge to soak up all that human misery into one giant ball of screaming angst. Massacre a few petty kingdoms to reclaim his power base, weather the invasion of first righteous crusader-types, then a big evil force contending for Dracula's throne, and end it with a battle against his first Belmont, sparking off the "here's where our legendary rivalry begins" kind of note.

Or, you know, make him lawful evil instead of the chaotic evil idiot he is usually portrayed

I mean seriously? The elders in the Brotherhood of Light screwed him over, God screwed him over, he had all the right in the world to be pissed and go on a rampage of revenge, and what does Gabriel Belmont do? Recruit monsters and kills peasants who had nothing to do with all his angst issues, just because apparently that's what all "evil" people are required to do! Am I the only one who sees the disconnect?

So yeah, have this: As per above, Dracula awakens in a pestilence-ridden crapsack medieval world and begins to take over the land... and then people realize that living under the stable rule of a single despot is still better than living under the constant threat of a myriad of despots, and Dracula would end up being the best alternative, which puts both Drac and the heroes trying to beat him into a hard position they have no experience with.

But of course we cannot have that, since apparently developers are too afraid to play the "Dark is not Evil" card and instead rely on the "good ol'" good vs evil (or at least ambiguously evil vs insane evil) tropes...

Yeah, he could be more of a Doctor Doom, where he rules his little country and tries to take over the world, but his people still love him.

That sounds like a way better game. Just to be sure, Lords of Shadow is a total reboot of the Castlevania series, right? I thought Konami tried that before in the PS2 era.

 

[2xDouble]

Seems Yahtzee has indeed played Cthulu Saves the World... and if he hasn't, needs to. Immediately.

A game about Dracula rebuilding his power in the modern era could work, but I refer to movies like Dracula: 2000, which is so much shite on toast you can't eat it without the toast getting soaked through and turned into mush. No one wants to eat it then.

No, set it a hundred years after he conked out. Pick an era where Europe is basically skullfucking itself with diseases and war, and have Dracula emerge to soak up all that human misery into one giant ball of screaming angst. Massacre a few petty kingdoms to reclaim his power base, weather the invasion of first righteous crusader-types, then a big evil force contending for Dracula's throne, and end it with a battle against his first Belmont, sparking off the "here's where our legendary rivalry begins" kind of note.

Now that's a game. Where do I put my preorder?

It's called Impire. It's on Steam now... and isn't very good.

I would not want to play a game where the protagonist is evil.

Why not......

Because doing evil in a game is fun because you theoretically aren't supposed to be doing it. It's "forbidden fruit", or "naughty". Doing "evil" in a game where you're supposed to be "evil" is just another objective marker, and becomes tedious. To wit: "Being a dick in a dickishness simulator is just like being nice in any other game." - Overlord 2 [http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/zero-punctuation/822-Overlord-2].

On the other hand, we have games like Dungeon Keeper, where the "evil" is essentially cosmetic; basically irrelevant, but embodies a sort-of rebellion against convention, which is the part of being "evil" that's fun.

 

[CaptainMarvelous]

... Basically, Blood Omen 2 but with Dracula as the main character? Yes. I would be absolutely in favour of this.