Dark Souls 2: Of Missing Monsters and Bustling Bases

Yahtzee Croshaw

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Dark Souls 2: Of Missing Monsters and Bustling Bases

From despawning monsters to the surprise plotlines that you've been inadvertently taking part in all along, Yahtzee takes an updated look at Dark Souls 2 now that he has finally finished the game.

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Evonisia

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I'll just assume that the "Portal versus Portal 2" comparison is still valid. Still wasn't it nice to have a game be an interesting talking point? Thief, Strider and Castlevania: LoS 2 haven't exactly gotten much reaction from anyone. The only thing that comes close is Stick of Truth.

So Dark Souls 2 does the typical "you're going to do this regardless of your choice" story element. That's a shame, but I suppose it could've been a lot worse (like The Conduit's "You are the only one who can stop them").
 

Eternal_Lament

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In regards to the feeling of the game, something that's sort of become apparent is that there's a certain bitter-sweetness to the game that, on the reflection, actually seems much more gloomy than before. The game suggests for instance that it doesn't matter which ending you picked in Dark Souls 1, it would lead to this eventually. Want to keep the world maintained? Someone's going to come by and fuck it up. Want to make the world go through a drastic change? Someone's going to come by and return to the status quo. The game is essentially a tale of resurrection and rebirth, something that becomes a bit more telling in New Game Plus. It seems bitter-sweet, because even though things may fall, they'll inevitably pick themselves back up. It becomes a bit gloomy though when you realize this...not only has this happened before, it's happened too many times to count, and it happened in the exact same manner...there is no truly getting out of this is there?

It's kind of why the main protagonist sort of has their fate decided for them, and why many NPCs admit to not knowing why they're there...they're being relegated to roles beyond their control
 

KDR_11k

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Well, Armored Core 4 took place in a dying world yet Armored Core 5 takes place in the world that arose from the ashes of AC4's world (you can see wrecks of some large vessels from for Answer in Verdict Day and some of the bonus bosses you can face in online play are reactivated for Answer enemies, except now you're fighting them in a significantly smaller and less powerful mech). And in AC5 the world is dying again, especially after an AI digs up all the radioactive crap that caused the death of the AC4 civilization in the first place. From Software gonna From Software.
 
Feb 22, 2009
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Yeah I feel much the same, my opinion is kind of slowly souring over time. It's still a great game, but it just doesn't feel perfect like the first game does to me. That said I disagree with one thing you said here, about the fact that this is set hundreds of years later undermining the plot; I don't think it does. Dark Souls didn't feel like it was set in a world that was ending any time soon to me. It felt like it was set in a world that was in a perpetual decline, but there never seemed to be any clear end in sight. If anyone's read/seen the play Endgame, that's pretty much the tone I think Dark Souls captured. Everything is ending but it's taking its time to do so. So the fact that the slow decline could drag on centuries more, into the time of Dark Souls 2, actually enhances that feeling if anything.

Other than that though, yeah. Fine sequel, but kind of makes me nostalgic for the first game more than anything else.
 

Kenjitsuka

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Currently still playing Dead Souls 1 Prepare to Die edition, which I bought about 2-3 weeks ago.
Got 41 hours in, mostly just grinding levels because that is nice and easy on the dying (L 104 atm).

Don't know if I'm gonna get this sequel though.
Feel like I'm ready for something much easier for awhile (Reaper of Souls, probably).
 

Michster

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It does feel like a major step backwards on the design-department in comparisson to DS1. Particularly the ending felt kinda "cheap".

"Ooh I was destined to do this? Never-ending cycle-stuff? ... Lame."


What annoys me most however is how they kept yapping on about "the curse" in the trailers prior to the release. What did we actually learn about the curse? About being undead? What created the darksign?

Kind of annoying that we still know nothing about it. I like the mystery, but you could at least explain a little bit about...ooh I don't know... THE MAIN REASON WHY YOU'RE DOING THIS STUFF IN THE FIRST PLACE!
 

Piecewise

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A lot of what you talk about here, you'll find was present in Demon's souls. Namely the central hub area where you accumulate npcs. In fact, there were many things in this game that harken back to demon's souls, but I digress.

Dark souls 2 is very much a game of giving you things and taking them away. Like you said in your video: Healing items but limited estus, automatic repair but faster degradation, etc. And Dark souls 2 as a whole could be described as "Better gameplay, but less atmosphere." They changed a lot of things mechanically, improved weapon move sets, online connectivity, etc etc, but at the cost of the game becoming a bit more bland. Most people who have played the souls games will tell you that Demon's is the height of atmosphere (Hi tower of Latria) while it is, while it isn't as polished as DS in terms of gameplay. DS, for the first half of the game, had good atmosphere and better gameplay, but the atmosphere sort of lessened in the second half. DS2 feels very much like that second half of DS1, except for the whole game. Areas are more varied and interesting, but we lose a feeling of inter-connectivity and the story and lore doesn't seem as tight. As a trade off, the gameplay part of the game works much better though.

Oh and yeah, it's a souls game. Going to kill a legendary king who turns out to be only a hollow shadow of his former self and then having a lack luster final boss fight is pretty much a hallmark of the series. Play through Demon's, Dark and Dark 2 and you will see that they have so many similarities and carry overs and repeated ideas that it's a bit ridiculous.
 
Feb 22, 2009
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grimner said:
Other than that, Portal syndrome does apply, and some of the bosses are objectively not as good. I still highlight, say, the Gaping Dragon in my list of experiences not because it's all that grueling but because it's a fight I don't mind reliving and redoing. And don't get me started on Sif, which boasts not only memorable design but some actual emotional punch (especially post DLC). Bosses here don't quite have the same flashes of brilliance, and I think there is where Miyazaki's influence is most sorely missed. Couple that with the fact that though I am pretty convinced that the Oolacile DLC portion was actually content that was originally scraped from launch and then worked upon as an extra (Preliminary artwork for the Bloated Heads or the Manticore boss can be found in the artbook accompanying the launch special edition), the bosses there are some of the best in the whole series, from Artorias, to the game of patience that is Kalameet, to the mental exhaustion that was Manus' neverending agressiveness.
There are definitely some good bosses in DS2 though! Demon of Song is pretty fucking creepy-looking without just being a gross-out. The Lost Sinner's pretty great too. And it's worth remembering that even in the first game, boss designs were recycled to an extent. The first boss in DS1 popped up in slightly altered form in the Demon Ruins, when you returned to the Asylum, and you could even argue Smough has a largely similar moveset, even if he doesn't look the same. But yeah, I'd agree that DS1 definitely wins overall.

My primary problem with 2, I think, is more the structure, the fact that the world doesn't seem to fit together as coherently and you rarely have a clear direction to go in. That bothered me a lot more than any of the bosses did.
 

BooTsPs3

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Eternal_Lament said:
In regards to the feeling of the game, something that's sort of become apparent is that there's a certain bitter-sweetness to the game that, on the reflection, actually seems much more gloomy than before. The game suggests for instance that it doesn't matter which ending you picked in Dark Souls 1, it would lead to this eventually. Want to keep the world maintained? Someone's going to come by and fuck it up. Want to make the world go through a drastic change? Someone's going to come by and return to the status quo. The game is essentially a tale of resurrection and rebirth, something that becomes a bit more telling in New Game Plus. It seems bitter-sweet, because even though things may fall, they'll inevitably pick themselves back up. It becomes a bit gloomy though when you realize this...not only has this happened before, it's happened too many times to count, and it happened in the exact same manner...there is no truly getting out of this is there?

It's kind of why the main protagonist sort of has their fate decided for them, and why many NPCs admit to not knowing why they're there...they're being relegated to roles beyond their control
Yeah but see that's the thing. There's rhyme, but no reason. Honestly, aside from a convenient excuse to retell the same story in a worse way, what is the point of the whole cycle of the world thing they have going on? You can use the cycle as an excuse for the four big baddies being similar to the old four big baddies, but that doesn't make it a good excuse. It adds nothing to the experience. The old lords aren't expanded upon, and the new ones get very little info because the game is too busy trying to show you how "Look! it's like that guy you thought was cool!". Outside of the Old Iron King, there's very little information on the old ones, which is pretty disappointing. The lore as a whole is just kind of unexplained (old dragonslayer being a prime example of this. The dude is practically a walking lore inconsistency). It just doesn't do anything for the sequel to constantly shove reminders of the first game down the players throat. Yes i do remember the fucking witch of izalith thank you very much! They were that interesting character who had a backstory unlink their reincarnation.
 

BooTsPs3

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As time goes on, many people seem to be souring on the game. The reddit for example, is becoming devoid of lore. Every theory is shot down immediately because it has obvious flaws. The lore is for the most part, half-written. There's no backbone to the story.

And speaking of the story, the main plot basically makes next to no sense. The whole cycle thing does kinda diminish DS1 like yahtzee said, but sequels are gonna have shitty reasons to exist, that's what they do. The big problem with the cycle however, is that all it serves to do is make your whole quest seem pointless. If they cycle is going to repeat regardless of my actions, what is the point of them? Why am i following the orders of some random woman i just met instead of looking for the cure that the intro told me i was looking for? Surely given the knowledge that i can't have a lasting impact on the world i'd choose the path of an enjoyable life, not filled with hundreds of painful deaths.

The ending left me quite sour. I mean, the boss was kinda shitty, but more to the point, the ending cutscene bothered the fuck out of me. Essentially being told, "You can now choose to take the throne and be the next monarch, or you can refuse it" is pretty stupid when my character goes ahead and takes the throne regardless. Why am i told i have a choice in the same cutscene that my character chooses their own choice regardless of what i want? Some players have argued that the choice is there, it's just an off-screen thing, leaving the future ambiguous. But this isn't a movie. It's a game. Let me play the choice. The first game left you in a big empty room after killing the closest thing the world ever had to a god. Silence and only your own company, and the question "Is the light worth holding onto? Even if it is only for a little while?". It was a personal question more than anything, as the cutscene you got afterwards showed little. But that silence in that moment was something of beauty. You had finally come to the end of a long and difficult journey. You weren't about to just pick some choice at random because you had worked so hard for it. That tiny section of gameplay, with almost no content mattered massively. The removal of it hurt the ending significantly.

Truly, the cycle is the downfall of the game however. By essentially creating a plot device so that the first game can be remade with a new skin, there will be comparisons. The game won't be taken as a standalone, and dark souls 1 is not a game you want to be compared to at every angle. Demons souls and dark souls existed in harmony, they were different experiences with similar gameplay. They didn't try to be the same. Dark souls changed a lot from Demons souls. Dark souls 2 tries to be Dark souls 1 again, and it simply can't be. The world isn't the interconnected wonder the first game was, the bosses aren't as memorable ornstein and smough or artorias, and the lore is simply afraid to spread its own wings, but hangs to the coattails of the first game, to weak to even expand what it clings to.

I mean, it's a great game. Like has been said before, more dark souls is a good thing, but the sequel stood to close to the original, and became an inferior copy. It's a lot of fun, but i don't think there's really any chance of it having the same longevity of the first. I've played it through a few times, already, and that should speak for its quality, but I don't think it has the same charm that the first one did when replayed. It was so meticulously crafted that there was always a few new things you spotted. The sequel feels more like a generic fantasy game in its design, but still retains a lot of the great mechanics of the first.
 

MrBaskerville

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Mar 15, 2011
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I haven't heard about the "Kill an enemy 10 times" thing, sounds like something that would kinda ruin the game for me :/. It's like games that automatically adjusts difficulty, it doesn't feel right and it's frustrating that it doesn't give you a chance to try again. It just suddenly gets a whole lot easier and you just have to deal with it...
 

Shjade

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Feb 2, 2010
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MrBaskerville said:
I haven't heard about the "Kill an enemy 10 times" thing, sounds like something that would kinda ruin the game for me :/. It's like games that automatically adjusts difficulty, it doesn't feel right and it's frustrating that it doesn't give you a chance to try again. It just suddenly gets a whole lot easier and you just have to deal with it...
It's not that the game just becomes easier - it does, obviously, since there's less in your way, but it's not a "free" difficulty switch. It's also a farm cap. If you're trying to farm up souls to get beefy before fighting the next boss, well, there's a limit on how much you can powerlevel yourself in the content. It makes running that section easier, yes, but on the whole, it makes the game arguably harder.

Especially if you're trying to farm specific drops. Getting titanite chunks is a pain compared to just farming the darkwraiths in New Londo for a few hours in Dark Souls, for instance.
 

Chris Slime

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May 20, 2013
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I wonder if i Should tell Yahtzee that Siegmeyer, and Solaire have branching paths and can be saved...
 

Eternal_Lament

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BooTsPs3 said:
Eternal_Lament said:
In regards to the feeling of the game, something that's sort of become apparent is that there's a certain bitter-sweetness to the game that, on the reflection, actually seems much more gloomy than before. The game suggests for instance that it doesn't matter which ending you picked in Dark Souls 1, it would lead to this eventually. Want to keep the world maintained? Someone's going to come by and fuck it up. Want to make the world go through a drastic change? Someone's going to come by and return to the status quo. The game is essentially a tale of resurrection and rebirth, something that becomes a bit more telling in New Game Plus. It seems bitter-sweet, because even though things may fall, they'll inevitably pick themselves back up. It becomes a bit gloomy though when you realize this...not only has this happened before, it's happened too many times to count, and it happened in the exact same manner...there is no truly getting out of this is there?

It's kind of why the main protagonist sort of has their fate decided for them, and why many NPCs admit to not knowing why they're there...they're being relegated to roles beyond their control
Yeah but see that's the thing. There's rhyme, but no reason. Honestly, aside from a convenient excuse to retell the same story in a worse way, what is the point of the whole cycle of the world thing they have going on? You can use the cycle as an excuse for the four big baddies being similar to the old four big baddies, but that doesn't make it a good excuse. It adds nothing to the experience. The old lords aren't expanded upon, and the new ones get very little info because the game is too busy trying to show you how "Look! it's like that guy you thought was cool!". Outside of the Old Iron King, there's very little information on the old ones, which is pretty disappointing. The lore as a whole is just kind of unexplained (old dragonslayer being a prime example of this. The dude is practically a walking lore inconsistency). It just doesn't do anything for the sequel to constantly shove reminders of the first game down the players throat. Yes i do remember the fucking witch of izalith thank you very much! They were that interesting character who had a backstory unlink their reincarnation.
I wasn't really arguing if the cycle excused the story or not. Rather, I was referring more to the tone of the story, which is ultimately a bit more bleak. What's worse, knowing that you are on the brink of death, or knowing that you'll never escape the cycle of death? It's one thing to die and be over with it, it's another knowing that you're being rebuilt only to be destroyed.

Yes, at the moment it seems that Dark Souls 2 is a bit hampered by being a sequel rather than an entire other world. That said, it's only been three weeks so far--most of the crazy lore stuff for Dark Souls 1 didn't really start surfacing until a few months after the game came out, and that was only some of the stuff that Youtubers have been discussing for two years now.
 

BooTsPs3

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Feb 2, 2011
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Eternal_Lament said:
BooTsPs3 said:
Eternal_Lament said:
In regards to the feeling of the game, something that's sort of become apparent is that there's a certain bitter-sweetness to the game that, on the reflection, actually seems much more gloomy than before. The game suggests for instance that it doesn't matter which ending you picked in Dark Souls 1, it would lead to this eventually. Want to keep the world maintained? Someone's going to come by and fuck it up. Want to make the world go through a drastic change? Someone's going to come by and return to the status quo. The game is essentially a tale of resurrection and rebirth, something that becomes a bit more telling in New Game Plus. It seems bitter-sweet, because even though things may fall, they'll inevitably pick themselves back up. It becomes a bit gloomy though when you realize this...not only has this happened before, it's happened too many times to count, and it happened in the exact same manner...there is no truly getting out of this is there?

It's kind of why the main protagonist sort of has their fate decided for them, and why many NPCs admit to not knowing why they're there...they're being relegated to roles beyond their control
Yeah but see that's the thing. There's rhyme, but no reason. Honestly, aside from a convenient excuse to retell the same story in a worse way, what is the point of the whole cycle of the world thing they have going on? You can use the cycle as an excuse for the four big baddies being similar to the old four big baddies, but that doesn't make it a good excuse. It adds nothing to the experience. The old lords aren't expanded upon, and the new ones get very little info because the game is too busy trying to show you how "Look! it's like that guy you thought was cool!". Outside of the Old Iron King, there's very little information on the old ones, which is pretty disappointing. The lore as a whole is just kind of unexplained (old dragonslayer being a prime example of this. The dude is practically a walking lore inconsistency). It just doesn't do anything for the sequel to constantly shove reminders of the first game down the players throat. Yes i do remember the fucking witch of izalith thank you very much! They were that interesting character who had a backstory unlink their reincarnation.
I wasn't really arguing if the cycle excused the story or not. Rather, I was referring more to the tone of the story, which is ultimately a bit more bleak. What's worse, knowing that you are on the brink of death, or knowing that you'll never escape the cycle of death? It's one thing to die and be over with it, it's another knowing that you're being rebuilt only to be destroyed.

Yes, at the moment it seems that Dark Souls 2 is a bit hampered by being a sequel rather than an entire other world. That said, it's only been three weeks so far--most of the crazy lore stuff for Dark Souls 1 didn't really start surfacing until a few months after the game came out, and that was only some of the stuff that Youtubers have been discussing for two years now.
The thing about discovering new things is, the guide removed most of the discovery from the game. We know pretty much everything, and without miyazaki the level design simply doesn't have the same detail as before, that was always a given. Dark souls 1 also was pretty small community wise upon release. That isn't the case with DS2. Hell, even with the lore videos out there you can see problems. ENB, who worked on the guide and even had access to internal documents seems to say very little about the lore when doing his lets play, and it's clear from vaati's heide video that he has no clue how ornstein got there.

A lot of people seem to think dark souls 1 was like this at launch. It wasn't. There was basic story structure, and it was always hinted that there was more. Kaathe being on of the best examples of this, ceaseless discharge being another. It's clear that dark souls 2 is more videogamey in design. Little things seem to have little importance this time around, again, without miyazaki, a ton of the subtle detail is out the window. That was confirmed by the new director from the beginning, he said himself he wasn't a fan of subtle storytelling.

Regarding the cycle of death, i'd call it more harsh in the original. In the sequel the journey became pointless. With this knowledge of the cycle, there is literally zero reason for my character to keep doing what the herald tells him. Yet it's the only thing i can do. It's a journey that feels pointless because you can't affect the outcome.
In the first game, it had the harsh reality of the inevitable age of dark, but you had the chance to postpone that if you chose. You could fight against inevitability. Leave your mark, if even just for a little while. Make the ultimate sacrifice to prolong life just a little longer.
Being flat out told that your journey will affect nothing kinda diminishes the hell out of it. It's not bleak and depressing. There's no sense of inevitability, no sense of futility, just an air of pointlessness and a lack of motivation. It's just confusing as to why they would do something like this. I find it particularly annoying after the intro and the section with the witches focusing on you as an individual, only to be forced down this path even though you know how pointless it is.
 

Johnny Novgorod

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Wait, what? Did we ever properly talk about this? I'm cool with not taking the throne, I'd just, you know, like to stop looking like someone crafted me from beef jerky and string.
Only a true monarch denies his monarchy!