10 Characters I Want In Captain America 3
- Thread starter MovieBob
- Start date
Obscurus comicus lore.
It's always amusing to me that so many super heroes and other associated characters are quite liberal and progressive (especially in the Marvel-verse), yet so many on the morally conservative side (shall we say) seem to hold them up as paragons of "their" America.
Arnie Roths story is a prime example of what I mean.
It's always amusing to me that so many super heroes and other associated characters are quite liberal and progressive (especially in the Marvel-verse), yet so many on the morally conservative side (shall we say) seem to hold them up as paragons of "their" America.
Arnie Roths story is a prime example of what I mean.
Like America herself, Cap's greatest foe seems to be his own ideology taken to twisted conclusions.
That's pretty much how every great superhero works. The Joker isn't a nemesis because he's mean or funny, but because his biggest goal is simply to get Batman to go against his morals. Superman's enemies' greatest strength is putting him in situations where he has to choose to fight through civilians, or other non-justice-ey situations.SnakeoilSage said:
The last one especially reminds me of a tumblr post I... can't find
The basic gist of it was that the Cap would basically, realistically, be the darling of the left wing media... since he clearly grew up in the New Deal and thus would likely have a very positive outlook on socialism and welfare to aid the poor.
It then went on to point out that he'd likely quickly become sick of the modern 24-hour news cycle, which would mean that he'd probably mostly appear on things like the Daily Show (Oh god I want to see that) and things like TyT.
The basic gist of it was that the Cap would basically, realistically, be the darling of the left wing media... since he clearly grew up in the New Deal and thus would likely have a very positive outlook on socialism and welfare to aid the poor.
It then went on to point out that he'd likely quickly become sick of the modern 24-hour news cycle, which would mean that he'd probably mostly appear on things like the Daily Show (Oh god I want to see that) and things like TyT.
Yay! Another List Breakdown [http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/jump/6.842284.20720516]!
1) Diamondback: If they bring her in, hopefully there will be at least a partial-rewrite of the character. The "love at first sight" concept is probably something should be dropped in exchanged for a more general romantic tension between the two, culminating in a "you can redeem yourself and I can help you" thing at the climax.
2) William Burnside: They could use him, but they would probably have to drop the racist bit (or, at the very least, have him be quite a bit older). The paranoid jingoist elements, however, could be used as a echo back to the 1980s US shift to a much more cowboy-esque approach to the USSR and the rise of US neo-conservative hyperpatriotism beginning in the late 1990s and becoming the dominant foreign policy of the US in the 2000s. A outright battle between Burnside and Captain America could be regarded as a battle between theories of policy and a Captain America victory would be regarded as an end of the preemptive concept as a whole, not simply the approach. Of course, it sounds like Winter Soldier already does that, but I'll wait until I see it before I rule this concept out, as from the sound of things SHIELD appears to be simply using the New York event for development of their resources (not dissimilar to the US intelligence community in the wake of 11 September 2001), whereas a Burnside-like approach would probably fall more in line with the hypernationalism that fed off the event.
3) Sin: You know what? I guarantee Red Skull had some lover/s while head of Hydra (ego-maniacal leader of a cult of supernazis who could be regarded as the epitome of what they stood for? It would be weirder if he didn't). You could have Sin be the result of coitus, with the effects of the serum creating an abnormally strong and intelligent offspring that doesn't age after 22 (because, why not?), who takes the mantle of Head of Hydra upon maturity. Or, alternatively, you could have her as his granddaughter or even great-granddaughter, with Hyrda experiments trying to keep the Red Skull bloodline strong.
Either way, as head of Hyrda, Sin would probably be a character that infiltrates SHIELD as a prospective agent following the events of Winter Soldier and SHIELD: Uprising, as a recruitment drive to replenish dead personnel glosses over the more opaque elements of her background check. She infiltrates, moves up quickly through the ranks through her intelligence and charisma, and becomes close ally of Captain America as a team leader (similar to Coulson) or as a commander (similar to Hand), possibly even a romantic relationship. Her team and the Captain investigate a pattern of thefts of artifacts and equipment that appear to be connected with some kind of neo-Hydra organization or even Hydra itself with Red Skull at the helm. The entire thing turns out to be a ruse so that the could capture Captain America and bring him to a Hydra base for study and possibly the reverse engineering of the serum, having used the last of them to create Sin. Sin reveals herself as the actual head of Hydra at the climax, before Captain America escapes and sets off the self destruct of the base (because they would totally still have that). Sin escapes (after being presumed dead) with several of the artifacts, but the Hydra operation is so heavily wounded that it is regarded as a victory.
4) The (non-Fantastic Four) Human Torch: I can see this as a throwback to that original Stark Expo, with a brief scene where Tony Stark develops a new android based on his father's old design, with Jarvis (or some other intelligence) inhabiting the body that uses a plasma field for offensive and defensive purposes. "Yeah, I improved on my dad's old design by putting in an 'on/off' switch so it could be shutdown before the lab incinerated."
5) Captain America as a Werewolf: Eh... Maybe a SHIELD or Hydra experiment get's loose and bites the captain on the way out, requiring a search for werewolf zero (which will probably be Asgardian in nature).
6) Doctor Faustus: Would be great to help Sin recruit some SHIELD members into Hydra (see above).
7) Hate Monger: Haha... no. If there is one thing about supervillain leaders in the Marvel Cinematic Universe, it's that they all seem to prefer some element of subtlety. The hate monger most certainly is not subtle...
8) The Bradley Family: I can see this as another "Captain was gone, let's try it again" experiment, with much of the records of it outright destroyed by Bradley in the past (giving him prison time for his troubles and a reason for the Abomination to exist in this timeline). Bradley is now in a retirement home, practically catatonic and close to death from old age, while his son becomes a Vietnam (or possibly Gulf War) veteran and grandson is enlisted into SHIELD.
9) Super Patriot/U.S. Agent: Like I noted before [http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/jump/6.842284.20720516], Captain America was a propaganda figure, and it would be odd for the US government to just let him disappear like that. So insert John Walker as his late-WWII and early-Cold War replacement and expect a story about his time trying to be the captain.
10) Arnie Roth: I can see him as a character, possibly as an aging WWII vet or as a more recent post-thaw friend, but he won't be a driving force in a story. Unlike the time when that story was published, homosexuality is now regarded as a normal occurrence and gay rights as a given in the US and most European countries, making any story that revolves around his sexuality or partner seem way out of place in the cinematic universe. At most, I can see them as cameos in a dinner scene or possibly a pair of SHIELD suits used to emphasize SHIELD's tolerance of interoffice romance.
1) Diamondback: If they bring her in, hopefully there will be at least a partial-rewrite of the character. The "love at first sight" concept is probably something should be dropped in exchanged for a more general romantic tension between the two, culminating in a "you can redeem yourself and I can help you" thing at the climax.
2) William Burnside: They could use him, but they would probably have to drop the racist bit (or, at the very least, have him be quite a bit older). The paranoid jingoist elements, however, could be used as a echo back to the 1980s US shift to a much more cowboy-esque approach to the USSR and the rise of US neo-conservative hyperpatriotism beginning in the late 1990s and becoming the dominant foreign policy of the US in the 2000s. A outright battle between Burnside and Captain America could be regarded as a battle between theories of policy and a Captain America victory would be regarded as an end of the preemptive concept as a whole, not simply the approach. Of course, it sounds like Winter Soldier already does that, but I'll wait until I see it before I rule this concept out, as from the sound of things SHIELD appears to be simply using the New York event for development of their resources (not dissimilar to the US intelligence community in the wake of 11 September 2001), whereas a Burnside-like approach would probably fall more in line with the hypernationalism that fed off the event.
3) Sin: You know what? I guarantee Red Skull had some lover/s while head of Hydra (ego-maniacal leader of a cult of supernazis who could be regarded as the epitome of what they stood for? It would be weirder if he didn't). You could have Sin be the result of coitus, with the effects of the serum creating an abnormally strong and intelligent offspring that doesn't age after 22 (because, why not?), who takes the mantle of Head of Hydra upon maturity. Or, alternatively, you could have her as his granddaughter or even great-granddaughter, with Hyrda experiments trying to keep the Red Skull bloodline strong.
Either way, as head of Hyrda, Sin would probably be a character that infiltrates SHIELD as a prospective agent following the events of Winter Soldier and SHIELD: Uprising, as a recruitment drive to replenish dead personnel glosses over the more opaque elements of her background check. She infiltrates, moves up quickly through the ranks through her intelligence and charisma, and becomes close ally of Captain America as a team leader (similar to Coulson) or as a commander (similar to Hand), possibly even a romantic relationship. Her team and the Captain investigate a pattern of thefts of artifacts and equipment that appear to be connected with some kind of neo-Hydra organization or even Hydra itself with Red Skull at the helm. The entire thing turns out to be a ruse so that the could capture Captain America and bring him to a Hydra base for study and possibly the reverse engineering of the serum, having used the last of them to create Sin. Sin reveals herself as the actual head of Hydra at the climax, before Captain America escapes and sets off the self destruct of the base (because they would totally still have that). Sin escapes (after being presumed dead) with several of the artifacts, but the Hydra operation is so heavily wounded that it is regarded as a victory.
4) The (non-Fantastic Four) Human Torch: I can see this as a throwback to that original Stark Expo, with a brief scene where Tony Stark develops a new android based on his father's old design, with Jarvis (or some other intelligence) inhabiting the body that uses a plasma field for offensive and defensive purposes. "Yeah, I improved on my dad's old design by putting in an 'on/off' switch so it could be shutdown before the lab incinerated."
5) Captain America as a Werewolf: Eh... Maybe a SHIELD or Hydra experiment get's loose and bites the captain on the way out, requiring a search for werewolf zero (which will probably be Asgardian in nature).
6) Doctor Faustus: Would be great to help Sin recruit some SHIELD members into Hydra (see above).
7) Hate Monger: Haha... no. If there is one thing about supervillain leaders in the Marvel Cinematic Universe, it's that they all seem to prefer some element of subtlety. The hate monger most certainly is not subtle...
8) The Bradley Family: I can see this as another "Captain was gone, let's try it again" experiment, with much of the records of it outright destroyed by Bradley in the past (giving him prison time for his troubles and a reason for the Abomination to exist in this timeline). Bradley is now in a retirement home, practically catatonic and close to death from old age, while his son becomes a Vietnam (or possibly Gulf War) veteran and grandson is enlisted into SHIELD.
9) Super Patriot/U.S. Agent: Like I noted before [http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/jump/6.842284.20720516], Captain America was a propaganda figure, and it would be odd for the US government to just let him disappear like that. So insert John Walker as his late-WWII and early-Cold War replacement and expect a story about his time trying to be the captain.
10) Arnie Roth: I can see him as a character, possibly as an aging WWII vet or as a more recent post-thaw friend, but he won't be a driving force in a story. Unlike the time when that story was published, homosexuality is now regarded as a normal occurrence and gay rights as a given in the US and most European countries, making any story that revolves around his sexuality or partner seem way out of place in the cinematic universe. At most, I can see them as cameos in a dinner scene or possibly a pair of SHIELD suits used to emphasize SHIELD's tolerance of interoffice romance.
John Walker, evil? Really? I find that a bit of an overestimation. Misguided and more gung-ho, sure, but not evil.
I find myself feeling so sad, since despite liking Captain America I haven't even heard of a single one of those characters.The Gentleman said:
Honestly, neither have I. I've read exactly one Captain America comic book. But I can take a few minutes to read the quick paragraph by Bob and the Marvel wiki on the character to gauge how a movie or TV show might be able to tackle the character in a way that makes enough sense for a broader audience to understand.immortalfrieza said:
The Bradley families insertion would be a very clever way of creating the New Avengers and be a lot more topical of the unjust methods and illegal acts of war. It can make Cap grow as a Character and possibly lead to a civil war movie. n=Not that there needs to be one since the source material is squandered.
I am disapointed that the Nomad wasn´t on the list, specially considering Capwolf was there.
I think the Nomad is really underappreciated
I think the Nomad is really underappreciated
Than Cap would be going up against himself.... Most people that identify as politically "conservative" are usually more libertarian.. Strong on economic issues, but supportive (or indifferent) to social issues. While many in the "conservative" group are religious or have other issues, that doesn't mean that millions of conservative support, or at least have a "live and let live/keep the government out of _____ issue" about social issues like gay marriage.Andrew Siribohdi said:
Just like the "liberal" group is home to thugs, communists, ect like Bill Ayers, Che, Stalin and Mao, ect.
Uh, I don't know what world you live in, but libertarians are in the "libertarian" political group. Conservatives define themselves on social issues, because they don't have very different economic views than "liberals".Brockyman said:
And please, Ayers and Che are communists, I dare you to name one "liberal" politician who is a communist. As for Stalin and Mao, they're quite a bit closer to "conservative" than any "liberal" alive.
Well, strictly speaking it's a matter of comics being part of the media which has been heavily leaning left since the 60s. To be honest though Bob doesn't flat out say it but USAgent is pretty much a super hero and was a key element of teams like "Force Works" (when it ran) as well as one of the guys replacing Steve after his death. I believe there was even a line at one point about how "you were never really Captain America" followed by acknowledgement much later on that he was.Andrew Siribohdi said:
It should also be noted that William Burnside's Bucky later donned the identity of "Nomad" (which was itself held by Captain America at one point). He also at one point took the identity of "Scourge".
It should also be noted that Captain America isn't always right, in many cases he tends to act as a sort of face of the liberal point of view in comics, and that side ultimately winds up prevailing, oftentimes by the wave of a magic wand. HOWEVER it's noteworthy that in some storylines like "Civil War" it was always a lot more ambigious, despite some attempts to try and ruin it by trying to make a "right" and "wrong" side and an increasing analogy to modern politics which arguably ruined an entire event that took a decade or so to build and involved having a ton of people in The Marvel Universe acting out of character. The climax of "The Civil War" is when Captain America finally manages to turn things around against Iron Man's "Pro-Registration" movement by getting the help of Prince Namor and his army, however on the eve of his victory he more or less surrenders when he sees the damage being done to the city. The point more or less being that in the course of fighting he pretty much became exactly the threat guys like Iron Man were concerned about. I suppose his surrender counts as "being right" but I tend to see it as a sort of admission that as much as he liked his principles he had to admit he had been wrong.
Civil War also involved some more controversial moments as well, for example for a while you had "Cap" hiding out with none other than "The Punisher" and the two have differences due to Cap being willing to basically "pardon" any super villain that wanted to side with him against Registration (which conversely the other side was willing to do for villains that came forward and registered as well). The Punisher was using Cap's banner as a way of luring in scumbags so he could execute them, which caused a falling out. In a way raising the question as to how much of a good guy could Cap be if he's willing to pretty much team up with anyone, no matter how vile, in order to defend the right of these guys to remain anonymous (among other security related issues). In a sort of irony part of the point seemed to be that "The Punisher" in the end remained the most pure of the bunch because as lethal as he was he remained on target
for things being "Good vs. Evil" as opposed to a political slap fight. The most morally ambigious "hero" in the Marvel Universe arguably being one of the few heroes that was still doing his job and remembering who the bad guys actually were.
Eh, considering the political climate we're currently living in, I'd advise against the "Captain America: Gay Rights Hero!" story. Not that it's a bad story, far from it. I just think that it'd come across as a very ham-fisted "gay rights agenda" movie. That and the fact that more and more it's becoming the case where being opposed to gay rights is what gets you shunned. Just look at this Mozilla CEO business.
If this was back in the 90's, I'd say go for it, but like I said: I just don't think it's a story that needs to be told today.
And yes, I'm fully aware that there's still plenty of people out there opposed to gay rights, but that's also why I say that it'd come across as a ham-fisted gay rights movie.
Then again, as MovieBob pointed out in his review of the new Cap'n movie, that one was a pretty thinly veiled chastising of the Bush Administration's reaction to 9/11. So screw it, let's just make all our super-hero movies political. Why the hell not.
If this was back in the 90's, I'd say go for it, but like I said: I just don't think it's a story that needs to be told today.
And yes, I'm fully aware that there's still plenty of people out there opposed to gay rights, but that's also why I say that it'd come across as a ham-fisted gay rights movie.
Then again, as MovieBob pointed out in his review of the new Cap'n movie, that one was a pretty thinly veiled chastising of the Bush Administration's reaction to 9/11. So screw it, let's just make all our super-hero movies political. Why the hell not.
your logic doesn't make sense. you're saying that being anti-gay rights get you shunned, so logically being pro-gay rights gets you accepted. yet, you're saying NOT to include cap as a pro-gay rights figure.RJ 17 said:Eh, considering the political climate we're currently living in, I'd advise against the "Captain America: Gay Rights Hero!" story. Not that it's a bad story, far from it. I just think that it'd come across as a very ham-fisted "gay rights agenda" movie. That and the fact that more and more it's becoming the case where being opposed to gay rights is what gets you shunned. Just look at this Mozilla CEO business.
If this was back in the 90's, I'd say go for it, but like I said: I just don't think it's a story that needs to be told today.
And yes, I'm fully aware that there's still plenty of people out there opposed to gay rights, but that's also why I say that it'd come across as a ham-fisted gay rights movie.
Then again, as MovieBob pointed out in his review of the new Cap'n movie, that one was a pretty thinly veiled chastising of the Bush Administration's reaction to 9/11. So screw it, let's just make all our super-hero movies political. Why the hell not.
presenting a villain that has an anti-gay agenda wouldn't get the movie the kind of scorn Mozilla just got, quite the opposite, considering the good guy's view. of course, it would be rallied against by the anti-gay rights people, but fuck those people anyways.
now more than ever is when this story needs to be told, when we're on the precipice of enacting real, wide, sweeping change. it would absolutely serve to have that subplot in the zeitgeist of that agenda.
To give you context on where I'm coming from, I'm one who doesn't like heavy political overtones in my movies, especially when they're blatantly obvious ones such as with Elysium. That's actually why I really don't go to see very many movies these days since the trend seems to be coming more and more to politicize the subject material.martyrdrebel27 said:your logic doesn't make sense. you're saying that being anti-gay rights get you shunned, so logically being pro-gay rights gets you accepted. yet, you're saying NOT to include cap as a pro-gay rights figure.RJ 17 said:Eh, considering the political climate we're currently living in, I'd advise against the "Captain America: Gay Rights Hero!" story. Not that it's a bad story, far from it. I just think that it'd come across as a very ham-fisted "gay rights agenda" movie. That and the fact that more and more it's becoming the case where being opposed to gay rights is what gets you shunned. Just look at this Mozilla CEO business.
If this was back in the 90's, I'd say go for it, but like I said: I just don't think it's a story that needs to be told today.
And yes, I'm fully aware that there's still plenty of people out there opposed to gay rights, but that's also why I say that it'd come across as a ham-fisted gay rights movie.
Then again, as MovieBob pointed out in his review of the new Cap'n movie, that one was a pretty thinly veiled chastising of the Bush Administration's reaction to 9/11. So screw it, let's just make all our super-hero movies political. Why the hell not.
presenting a villain that has an anti-gay agenda wouldn't get the movie the kind of scorn Mozilla just got, quite the opposite, considering the good guy's view. of course, it would be rallied against by the anti-gay rights people, but fuck those people anyways.
now more than ever is when this story needs to be told, when we're on the precipice of enacting real, wide, sweeping change. it would absolutely serve to have that subplot in the zeitgeist of that agenda.
It's because of that trend that I ended my post with "why the hell not". It's what everyone else is doing.