Captain America Vs. The Tyranny Of "Dark"

RossaLincoln

New member
Feb 4, 2014
738
0
0
Captain America Vs. The Tyranny Of "Dark"

Is the Star Spangled Avenger too nice? Hell no. Wishing he was meaner is failure to grasp the concept.

Read Full Article
 

TiberiusEsuriens

New member
Jun 24, 2010
834
0
0
Ha, I guessed correctly that the buildup of this article was to namedrop MovieBob's description of William Burnside. I don't think it needed three pages to do so, but they didn't go wasted.

I had this same feeling. As a 'haven't-read-the-comics person,' when my wife first told me of Riesman's complaint the first words out of my mouth were "but that is THE ENTIRE POINT of Captain America. He's not a military fighter; he's a social justice warrior."
 

RossaLincoln

New member
Feb 4, 2014
738
0
0
TiberiusEsuriens said:
Ha, I guessed correctly that the buildup of this article was to namedrop MovieBob's description of William Burnside. I don't think it needed three pages to do so, but they didn't go wasted.
hahaha, quiet you!
 
Oct 20, 2010
424
0
0
Fun article Ross, and well said. Captain America does NOT need to be gloomy. That crap ruined the X-Men and it pooping all over Spider-Man.

You are correct, the asshole characters get boring FAST. Besides, can you even have a character now who IS gloomy who won't get called a Batman clone?
 

Peter200lx

New member
Nov 11, 2009
3
0
0
Thank you for this article, it echos my thoughts on the character quite well. I have been impressed with how well the Marvel movies have kept the Captain America true to his principles.
 

Trishbot

New member
May 10, 2011
1,318
0
0
One of the reasons I'm enjoying the Marvel movies and not the DC movies is because Marvel movies remembered they can have FUN with their colorful characters, AND they can stand for high ideals without compromising their integrity with traumatic backstories and moody self-loathing.

And what do we have here...

A noble, heroic, selfless, incorruptible symbol of America truth and justice, trying to find his place in a modern world of shady governments and moral ambiguity... Captain America: The Winter Soldier is a better Superman movie than Man of Steel.
 

Ishal

New member
Oct 30, 2012
1,177
0
0
Cap is a boy scout and a goody two shoes. Like so many have said, that's the point. People nowadays don't grasp certain traits of characters, and they throw around the "Mary Sue" label so much it's starting to lose all meaning. There are paragons of virtue and good in the world. I've met some. I've met people who haven't done a single evil/bad/regrettable thing in their lives. They are rare, exceedingly rare, but they exist. People like Cap and what he represents can and do exist.

To the claim that they aren't interesting, well, perhaps to certain people who like to see flawed characters all the time. But flaws =/= interesting or good characters. I'm tired of cynicism and brooding antiheroes. They have their place, I watch and enjoy Game of Thrones. I liked the Dark Knight films for what they offered. But having dark characters all the time wil saturate the landscape with them and THAT will make THEM uninteresting and boring. Hell, it's already happening.
 

RossaLincoln

New member
Feb 4, 2014
738
0
0
Trishbot said:
One of the reasons I'm enjoying the Marvel movies and not the DC movies is because Marvel movies remembered they can have FUN with their colorful characters, AND they can stand for high ideals without compromising their integrity with traumatic backstories and moody self-loathing.
One thing I'm particularly happy with is how the MCU has for the most part rejected The Hero's Journey as the go-to guide to character creation. In addition, they don't rely on Destiny as the reason they've managed to do heroic deeds. WB's increasingly bland take on the DC universe characters, plus the way the Xmen and Spider-Man are being treated contrast poorly to that.
 

Trishbot

New member
May 10, 2011
1,318
0
0
RossaLincoln said:
Trishbot said:
One of the reasons I'm enjoying the Marvel movies and not the DC movies is because Marvel movies remembered they can have FUN with their colorful characters, AND they can stand for high ideals without compromising their integrity with traumatic backstories and moody self-loathing.
One thing I'm particularly happy with is how the MCU has for the most part rejected The Hero's Journey as the go-to guide to character creation. In addition, they don't rely on Destiny as the reason they've managed to do heroic deeds. WB's increasingly bland take on the DC universe characters, plus the way the Xmen and Spider-Man are being treated contrast poorly to that.
Very much agreed.

A friend of mine pointed out how all of the Avengers have origins that supplement each other.
Iron Man is a self-made superhero, using cunning and ingenuity. He becomes a hero after his own creations were used against him, showing him the error of his ways.
Thor is a literal god of Asgard, cocky and confident with a might makes right mentality until his father humbles him without power on earth, forcing him to develop the skills and humility to be a true leader who uses his power to protect those weaker.
Captain America is a man who was a pure hero in everything but body, who would lay down his life for others but had to fight to even get that opportunity. He earns the right to become Captain America and then further uses that status to protect a world from bullies, both outside of and within his own country.
The Hulk is a man who played god and paid the price, forever in battle with a rampaging monster vying for control of his body and fearful of whether the monster within is a mindless beast of destruction or something he can guide and control to save others.
Black Widow is a former KGB spy with an apparent history of murder and espionage who had her fill of it and now seeks to atone and put her skills towards protecting the world.

And on and on it goes. While there is a "hero's journey" in the purest sense (a potential hero needs to learn a lesson, a big event transforms their lives, they become a hero after learning this lesson), it's done so in a more organic and less predictable way.

But, I think most importantly, the people they were "before" their transformation remain AFTER as well. Iron Man is still cocky and arrogant, but he redirects it. Captain America is still heroic and selfless, but now can apply his skills. Bruce Banner is still brilliant and smart, but he now applies it towards controlling what he unleashed. Black Widow is still a cunning and seductive spy, but she uses it to benefit others. Only Thor, I would say, matured out of hotheaded arrogance and faith in power.
 

Callate

New member
Dec 5, 2008
5,118
0
0
I agree with the premise that Captain America is a better and more interesting character for not being a cynical, conflicted brute who refuses to let anyone get close to him. One of the more interesting character notes in Winter Solider is that in his proximity to Nick Fury and Black Widow, his optimism seems to rub off on them rather than their more cynical/pragmatic approach on him.

...But I don't necessarily agree that "dark" characters need inherently be boring. I think the key word is not "dark" but "predictable"- when Ross mentions "you start to realize you know exactly how the story is going to turn out", that's the real issue. "Dark" becomes a problem when it prevents the character from growing or the plot from branching out; it's like a noir detective who you know in the end will be broke, bruised, and not have the girl. Not all "dark" characters are so predictable, nor need they be, nor should they be.

Things move in cycles. When the Comics Code was more of a threat, there were plenty of square-jawed heroes who you knew beyond doubt would catch the bad guy (gently, please!) and turn them over to the cops, all the while instructing their ward or other youthful "this could be you, kiddies" characters about sticking to the straight and narrow. Now, more things are Batman- but more to the point, one interpretation of Batman.

We'll weather this, too.
 

TheMemoman

New member
Mar 11, 2013
130
0
0
Let me offer some international perspective. The American Way doesn't mean to us what it means to you. To the third world it means bombs and threat. The American Way is our Smaug. I (as well as my friends) loved Captain America: The Winter Soldier and Captain America suddenly became my favorite movie theater superhero. How are both of the latter sentences not contradictory? The answer to that is simple, and just like Captain America, simple doesn't mean plain or stupid. It means earnest.

We don't hate Captain America for representing America, we don't hate America. The all encompassing entity named America really has two distinctly separate, opposing components. The people, who work hard to make it by, and the government who profits in war and lies to its people. Being in the third world doesn't make you a stupid cliché villain who hates everything associated with America. We are able to see the dichotomy in your identity as America because we also suffer from such dichotomy. In every single country we have people on one side and government on the other. Those who want to live and be fulfilled as humans, and those who are psychopathically addicted to power. Justice against Corruption. Which is what defines Captain America as a character. At least in the movies.

It's that sense of justice, of being a shining beacon of respect for human life, that we all love in Captain America. I've said the word America now about seven hundred times in this three paragraphs, not once with an ounce of hate, maliciousness or wishing ill on its people. Because the values Captain America stands for transcend our primitive notions of nationalism and borders. What matters is that at least on the screen we can count on someone that has the character, the moral strength and specially the resilient courage to stand for what is right. No matter allegiances, race, country or flag.

That particular scene when Nick Fury stares down at Captain America "to get with the program" rather now than later, if you put it in context, realizing the events that just unfolded in The Avengers, who Nick Fury is, represents and what he has done for all of them, then it's easy to see why that scene has so much impact when Captain America answers back "Don't hold your breath." and walks away. Not even the display of disproportionate firepower in front of him (which actually made me say,"Cool! The Earth is getting its own space army!" Silly, sod.) nor Nick Fury's severity made him flinch or doubt for a second. That to me is way more impressive (and downright bad-ass!) than toppling building after building.

These matters of ethic fiber are done without any cheap pathos or emotional string-tugging, it's just a moral stand off, based on arguments, and for the sake of superhero movie delight, actions. Captain America puts his money where his mouth is. You gotta respect that.
 

orangeapples

New member
Aug 1, 2009
1,836
0
0
It is fun being in a world in which the childlike idealism of "don't be a dick" is seen as the more mature option. I think what it is is that it is easy being a dick. People go to these movies and want to relater to the characters, but when the characters don't take the easy path people think it is unrealistic and too much sunshine and rainbows.
 

RossaLincoln

New member
Feb 4, 2014
738
0
0
Callate said:
I agree with the premise that Captain America is a better and more interesting character for not being a cynical, conflicted brute who refuses to let anyone get close to him. One of the more interesting character notes in Winter Solider is that in his proximity to Nick Fury and Black Widow, his optimism seems to rub off on them rather than their more cynical/pragmatic approach on him.

...But I don't necessarily agree that "dark" characters need inherently be boring. I think the key word is not "dark" but "predictable"- when Ross mentions "you start to realize you know exactly how the story is going to turn out", that's the real issue. "Dark" becomes a problem when it prevents the character from growing or the plot from branching out; it's like a noir detective who you know in the end will be broke, bruised, and not have the girl. Not all "dark" characters are so predictable, nor need they be, nor should they be.

Things move in cycles. When the Comics Code was more of a threat, there were plenty of square-jawed heroes who you knew beyond doubt would catch the bad guy (gently, please!) and turn them over to the cops, all the while instructing their ward or other youthful "this could be you, kiddies" characters about sticking to the straight and narrow. Now, more things are Batman- but more to the point, one interpretation of Batman.

We'll weather this, too.
Yeah, I tried to make it clear that I wasn't writing off darkness period, (and I like A LOT of the dark titles I mentioned) but pointing out that it became the single overriding cliche of our time. It's everywhere, regardless of whether it even fits. Bleak meanness for its own sake. "I'm the goddamned batman" indeed.
 

RossaLincoln

New member
Feb 4, 2014
738
0
0
TheMemoman said:
Let me offer some international perspective. The American Way doesn't mean to us what it means to you. To the third world it means bombs and threat. The American Way is our Smaug. I (as well as my friends) loved Captain America: The Winter Soldier and Captain America suddenly became my favorite movie theater superhero. How are both of the latter sentences not contradictory? The answer to that is simple, and just like Captain America, simple doesn't mean plain or stupid. It means earnest.

We don't hate Captain America for representing America, we don't hate America. The all encompassing entity named America really has two distinctly separate, opposing components. The people, who work hard to make it by, and the government who profits in war and lies to its people. Being in the third world doesn't make you a stupid cliché villain who hates everything associated with America. We are able to see the dichotomy in your identity as America because we also suffer from such dichotomy. In every single country we have people on one side and government on the other. Those who want to live and be fulfilled as humans, and those who are psychopathically addicted to power. Justice against Corruption. Which is what defines Captain America as a character. At least in the movies.

It's that sense of justice, of being a shining beacon of respect for human life, that we all love in Captain America. I've said the word America now about seven hundred times in this three paragraphs, not once with an ounce of hate, maliciousness or wishing ill on its people. Because the values Captain America stands for transcend our primitive notions of nationalism and borders. What matters is that at least on the screen we can count on someone that has the character, the moral strength and specially the resilient courage to stand for what is right. No matter allegiances, race, country or flag.

That particular scene when Nick Fury stares down at Captain America "to get with the program" rather now than later, if you put it in context, realizing the events that just unfolded in The Avengers, who Nick Fury is, represents and what he has done for all of them, then it's easy to see why that scene has so much impact when Captain America answers back "Don't hold your breath." and walks away. Not even the display of disproportionate firepower in front of him (which actually made me say,"Cool! The Earth is getting its own space army!" Silly, sod.) nor Nick Fury's severity made him flinch or doubt for a second. That to me is way more impressive (and downright bad-ass!) than toppling building after building.

These matters of ethic fiber are done without any cheap pathos or emotional string-tugging, it's just a moral stand off, based on arguments, and for the sake of superhero movie delight, actions. Captain America puts his money where his mouth is. You gotta respect that.
Quoted for truth. Hopefully my similar thoughts came through in this article. As I said, Cap doesn't defend American power, he defends American values.
 

Ratty

New member
Jan 21, 2014
848
0
0

The whole "heroes must change to fit the fanon conception that they are all dark and gritty" strikes me as something like a reverse Draco in Leather Pants.

It comes down to what you really want out of your heroes I guess. Do you want noble archetypes to aspire to or more relateable figures to project your fantasies on?[footnote]Often misidentified as "realistic". If years of brown and gray video games have taught anything it's that "realism" is boring, and ultimately unattainable in fantastical situations anyway. A truly realistic Batman would just be a rich guy who donates lots of money to the Police.[/footnote] Deep down a lot of people want to be a Frank Miller Batman. Powerful through wealth, nasty and able to scare and beat up others while always being morally "right", that's their ideal power fantasy. And as long as it's a fantasy there's nothing wrong with that, though I think it's unfortunate that they don't aspire to more.

Personally I like my Batman like I like other superheroes, as a decent person trying to do the right thing. As I saw recently pointed out this version of Batman was summed up perfectly at the end of the Batman:TAS episode "Harley's Holiday"

"Harley Quinn: There's one thing I gotta know. Why'd you stay with me all day? Riskin' your butt for someone who's never given you anything but trouble?"

"Batman: I know what it's like to try and rebuild a life. I had a bad day to, once."
 

K12

New member
Dec 28, 2012
943
0
0
The mistake people make is assuming that a "character flaw" must mean that the character is an asshole in some situations. Sure a character without flaws is dull but Captain America does have flaws, he's sincere to a fault and won't make compromises in situations where it is arguably a more prudent option to do so.

The idea that a good guy has no struggles is silly. It isn't easy to stick with principles especially when you have to call out people who are essentially your allies.

I think it is easier and more satisfying to imagine that you are justified in pummelling your enemies to death than it is to imagine giving them a fair trial and a full list of human rights. The latter is far more heroic but the first may be a more appealing power fantasy.
 

Racecarlock

New member
Jul 10, 2010
2,497
0
0
RossaLincoln said:
Captain America Vs. The Tyranny Of "Dark"

Is the Star Spangled Avenger too nice? Hell no. Wishing he was meaner is failure to grasp the concept.

Read Full Article
I will admit I just quoted you in the off chance that you also have quote notifications enabled so I might get a faster response, but here we go.

Let me tell you about literally the WORST CHARACTER I have ever encountered in ANY FICTION.

Max Payne 3's Max Payne. I have never met someone more cynical and yet more uninteresting than max payne. When he's not making social commentary, he's constantly constantly CONSTANTLY (AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH!) calling himself a loser or wishing to die or wishing to die or wishing to die and DID I MENTION HE LOVES WISHING TO DIE!? I stopped playing because of him. Right after I saved that one girl. Because after that, you have to figure out this conspiracy to make you a fall guy, and the next chapter is sarcastically titled "The Great American Savior". At that point, I said "No. I cannot take this anymore". Why should I waste my time on a guy who will probably kill himself after the game's ending? Why should I waste my time on some guy who manages to fix his alcoholism but doesn't ever fix his attitude because he's so fucking above everything.

People think captain america is an uninteresting character? No! No, I say. Max Payne 3's Max Payne is an uninteresting character. He's so uninteresting and so unlikable that I no longer wanted to play a game with some of the best shooting mechanics I've ever seen. He's that bad. I'm hoping that when I stopped playing, one of the guards in that hotel found him and shot him. It's apparently what he fucking wants anyways.
 

Therumancer

Citation Needed
Nov 28, 2007
9,909
0
0
I agree with you to an extent, and your overall sentiment about there being nothing wrong with super heroes who are just plain out nice guys is spot on.

That said your point sort of falls apart when you start getting into specifics where your by and large equating left wing morality with "what's right" when 50% of the population disagrees with that just for a start. It should be noted that the big trick in a lot of cases to doing genuinely good characters is to have them be good without being stupid. This goes back to the old joke/point that "evil will always win, because good is dumb" in pointing out reality vs. fantasy, or more realistic fantasy situations that get ultra-dark because of it. For example in "Winter Soldier" part of what's wrong with Captain America is that the guy is by definition part of what started as a covert government program. World War II wasn't morally ambigious because of civil liberties issues at home, but because like most things we won largely by being the bigger bastards. We dropped more bombs and massacred more Germans than the Nazis did during the "horrors" they inflicted in London during "The Blitz" thanks to guys like Sir Arthur "Bomber" Harris, who are the reason we won the war (like it or not), people who were decorated heavily by the US and Britan alike, yet were reviled as the same kinds of war criminals as the ones we tried and convicted by the other side. The winners get to write the history books. The purpose of Captain America was actually the opposite of what a lot of people here seem to think, he's a dude who ran around calling Nazis "Krauts" and other slurs that could make it into print to dehumanize them, and he did very much enter the military to act as a weapon against it's enemies. Conceptually he's sort of an answer to left wing isolationist sentiments at the time, and those in the US who were very pro-Nazi (Hitler was an international man
of the year).

Later generations of creators, especially after they retconned away from the whole "commie smasher" days by saying it was never *really* Captain America started using him as a social critic, and a way to attack those that didn't have a left wing idealogy. Forget the whole "William Burnside" thing, it becomes somewhat difficult to reconcile him with the character from World War II he's allegedly still supposed to be.

What's more look at what he did in say "Winter Soldier" where he destroys the three Helicarriers at the end. Okay, granted, maybe him being as pessimistic as Nick Fury doesn't work (they exist to play off each other to an extent, even in the comics, we have two separate characters for a reason), but when he wrecks these weapons as opposed to simply disabling them so Hydra can't use them, he goes from being "moral" to "stupid" especially in a world where things like Hydra exists, and the planet was already invaded by aliens once. It's a case where the writers lust for smacking down the US military/industrial complex trumped any kind of good writing for the character.

What's more while Captain America shouldn't be quite as jingoistic as he is in the "Ultimate" version, one point that version does make is that realistically Cap *would* be invading Iran, Iraq, North Korea, China, Russia, and other places opposed to the US. Indeed part of the point of Captain America, and him being "super" is specifically that he can be dropped behind the lines of places like that and say taken down Iranian nuclear programs, or thwart the schemes of the KGB or Kim Jong Un's tech divisions, without actually having to send in the military... and if they DO send in the military, he'd be right there with them. I mean let's not forget the whole "War On Terror" did start with an attack on US soil, against both military (The Pentagon) and Civilian targets. Properly Captain America would be critical of say The Bush administration for war profiteering, but he'd be just as critical of the left wing stupidity in how to conduct a war and not focusing on a practical method of winning... and yep, in wartime Cap would dehumanize his opponents, and start screaming racial and cultural epitats, not because he's racist, but because it gets under people's skin, and also makes it easier to brutalize people you dehumanize. If you think that doesn't sound like Captain America, then you don't know Captain America, as both him and Nick Fury used terms like "Krauts" and the like for the Germans for the same reason, he wasn't racist, he was just a warrior who knew what he was doing.

That said, the bottom line is that a character like Captain America was created largely for military-type stories and to focus on duels between nations and such. A lot of what causes the concept not to work is when you start involving him too much on a domestic level, which inevitably leads to the writers (currently dominated by the left wing) using him to make very one sided political points which don't always work for a character who is by definition the embodiment of America's military industrial complex, and using overwhelming force for the right reasons (with right being American principles, or the defense thereof).

In short Captain America should be a nice guy, but he shouldn't be dumb about it, and in writing this character in particular it's important that he doesn't become an embodiment of one side of the political spectrum, like he has been for the left wing. Right now Captain America has arguably become a parody equivalent to if he was say a defender of the upper 1% of American society, and spent all of his time punching people in the name of economic theory on behalf of bankers and corporations. Socially Captain America should be VERY militant, but he should also be someone who doesn't exactly act as a tool of the upper class either. When it comes to more social issues, gay rights, racism, etc... he doesn't belong there even if he's long since been used in those kinds of stories by those with an agenda. Those kinds of issues are things he as a super hero is supposed to exist above, as that is exactly the kind of garbage people read comics to get away from.

See, right now I think Captain America should be say punting Kim Jong Un and his ilk, much like his old "Hitler Punching Days", along with the regular super hero stuff. The problem is left wing writers and their "peace at any price" agenda prevents them from acknowledging any group as a real enemy of the US, and treating it that way, and honestly that kind of enemy (originally the Nazis) was what Cap was intended to fight, and arguably be a counterpoint/shaming influence on people like the current left wing who refused to accept those threats, or believed the US should stay out of such events and remain isolationist/it's their own business. Cap was designed as "the guy who goes to war" *NOT* as "the guy who whines about wars and tries to undermine them".
 

StHubi

New member
Jan 15, 2010
56
0
0
That was a really great article! I like Captain America the way he is. In my eyes the "dark" has already damaged the "Amazing Spider-Man" storyline and I am not willing to see that one in the cinemas anymore. But it could really be that the mass market is quite fond of such darkness... Let's hope there will be another shift in the entertainment industry as a whole.
 

RossaLincoln

New member
Feb 4, 2014
738
0
0
Racecarlock said:
RossaLincoln said:
Captain America Vs. The Tyranny Of "Dark"

Is the Star Spangled Avenger too nice? Hell no. Wishing he was meaner is failure to grasp the concept.

Read Full Article
I will admit I just quoted you in the off chance that you also have quote notifications enabled so I might get a faster response, but here we go.

Let me tell you about literally the WORST CHARACTER I have ever encountered in ANY FICTION.

Max Payne 3's Max Payne. I have never met someone more cynical and yet more uninteresting than max payne. When he's not making social commentary, he's constantly constantly CONSTANTLY (AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH!) calling himself a loser or wishing to die or wishing to die or wishing to die and DID I MENTION HE LOVES WISHING TO DIE!? I stopped playing because of him. Right after I saved that one girl. Because after that, you have to figure out this conspiracy to make you a fall guy, and the next chapter is sarcastically titled "The Great American Savior". At that point, I said "No. I cannot take this anymore". Why should I waste my time on a guy who will probably kill himself after the game's ending? Why should I waste my time on some guy who manages to fix his alcoholism but doesn't ever fix his attitude because he's so fucking above everything.

People think captain america is an uninteresting character? No! No, I say. Max Payne 3's Max Payne is an uninteresting character. He's so uninteresting and so unlikable that I no longer wanted to play a game with some of the best shooting mechanics I've ever seen. He's that bad. I'm hoping that when I stopped playing, one of the guards in that hotel found him and shot him. It's apparently what he fucking wants anyways.
So much truth contained here. I couldn't decide what I hated more, the fact that he was essentially Jack Bauer combined with Bad Lieutenant, or the fact that spending even an hour with him is the most tedious thing in the world.