133: The First Steps to the Holodeck

General Ma Chao

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Zeddicus Zhul Zorander said:
Exactly, we would have Utopia. And slowly, everyone would die. And the human race would be extinct.
If history has taught me anything, it's that most people don't care what will happen to future generations. Good or bad, it won't affect them, since they will be dead.

On an interesting note, Scott Adams (creator of Dilbert, now I know his name) had a blog entry in February '07 that asked what people would do if they had robots that could fulfill their companionship needs, including sex. They would look and act like humans, only they could of course be customized for the look and personality the person wants. Nearly everyone who commented, both male and female, said they would do it as long as it was "self-cleaning". ...yeah. We're so disgusted by and afraid of our fellow humans that we resort to stuff like this. Our society is in dire need of help.
 

General Ma Chao

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Cheeze_Pavilion said:
General Ma Chao said:
On an interesting note, Scott Adams (creator of Dilbert, now I know his name) had a blog entry in February '07 that asked what people would do if they had robots that could fulfill their companionship needs, including sex. They would look and act like humans, only they could of course be customized for the look and personality the person wants. Nearly everyone who commented, both male and female, said they would do it as long as it was "self-cleaning". ...yeah. We're so disgusted by and afraid of our fellow humans that we resort to stuff like this. Our society is in dire need of help.
Did they say they would do it? Or did they say they would do it *forever*? There's a big difference.
The commenters never said explicitly, but it was easy to infer. Some of the comments were "I'm sick of women nagging me!" "I'm sick of men's disgusting beer bellies!" That sounds to me like a long time at the very least. Why grow as a person when you can wallow in your selfishness and have a robot servant who will fulfill your EVERY need? It's the ultimate form of self gratification. To see how far it can go, read Masamune Shirow's Ghost In The Shell and watch the Futurama episode "I dated a robot".
 

Novan Leon

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Self-respect and self-confidence both come hand-in-hand with self-control and self-discipline. Our desires are like small fires that grow and become larger with every indulgence that we give them. These two reality's constantly war against eachother in our daily lives.

If we had robot servants or a holodeck that could fulfill our every desire, people would become obsessed, but never satisfied. The new device would consume them until cold hard reality either hit them and they woke up, or they died. The ones who woke up would carry on the race while the ones who didn't would die out. It's called natural selection.
 

Easykill

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General Ma Chao said:
Zeddicus Zhul Zorander said:
Exactly, we would have Utopia. And slowly, everyone would die. And the human race would be extinct.
If history has taught me anything, it's that most people don't care what will happen to future generations. Good or bad, it won't affect them, since they will be dead.

On an interesting note, Scott Adams (creator of Dilbert, now I know his name) had a blog entry in February '07 that asked what people would do if they had robots that could fulfill their companionship needs, including sex. They would look and act like humans, only they could of course be customized for the look and personality the person wants. Nearly everyone who commented, both male and female, said they would do it as long as it was "self-cleaning". ...yeah. We're so disgusted by and afraid of our fellow humans that we resort to stuff like this. Our society is in dire need of help.
What's so bad about that? What you're talking about is robot sentiency, as nothing else would be able to do that. I've always thought it odd the waypeople assume that AI's will be somehow "less" than us. People seem to have no concept of things like Asimovs 3 laws being nothing less than slavery. As long as the robot gets to choose, I see no problem.

P.S
I haven't read all the posts.
 

SilentScope001

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Why? Why does one need to come back? Wouldn't that be the "Utopia" that we have constantly been bettering ourselves towards? Why should we force people to continue suffering in this realm, when we've created heaven for the masses? I think it's an admirable goal. No more want, no more work, no more weakness.
Well, you see, um, I have an admission to make:

I have a holodeck.

A real life holodeck.

Every night, I close my eyes and activate the holodeck, and so I live in my own perfect world, for about 6 hours. I think, using the jargon of the Holodeck World, they call it a 'dream'.

And then, I wake up from my slumber, and then go back to sleep because I want to return back to my holodeck.

To be certain, I can't stay within the holodeck. The US Government demands that I work so that I get money. So I wake up, and return to the Real World. But, what if, what if the government does put me on a welfare check and let me go to sleep forever? I think I probraly would be lazy, if given the chance, and stay inside that holodeck for a while longer.

But to be honest, I can't. I can't really go to sleep forever, even if I tried. That's because I know it's not real. I know the dreamworld where I return to every night is not real, it's just pretend, having no reflection on real life. It is this boundary of "This is real" and "This is not real" that makes me not stay within the refuge of my Real Life Holodeck. If...if I thought it was real...then...I would have stayed.

I don't know WHY I want to stay in the Real World. I just don't. But I'm glad for that feeling, and so should the rest of humanity.

Oh, and I wouldn't buy another Holodeck. One is more than enough.
 

Novan Leon

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Cheeze_Pavilion said:
And self-discipline and self-control are both products of a feeling of security.
Actually, it works the other way around. Self-discipline and self-control lead to feeling secure, not the other way around.

Cheeze_Pavilion said:
A holodeck would be water to our desires, not fuel. The 'reward every time, whenever you need it' mechanism would build that feeling of security, not stoke the flames of desire.
In reality, this kind of indulgence would only breed discontent. The holodeck would become 'boring' and something else would take it's place as the next great thing.

The actual result would vary from person to person, but it would generally unfold as I described.
 

Novan Leon

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Cheeze_Pavilion said:
Novan Leon said:
Cheeze_Pavilion said:
And self-discipline and self-control are both products of a feeling of security.
Actually, it works the other way around. Self-discipline and self-control lead to feeling secure, not the other way around.
Totally disagree. Security comes from feeling a sense of power--'I can get my needs met'. A person who feels power--true power, the power to get 'enough' and not just 'more'--is a person with self-discipline and self-control. They don't have to gorge themselves every time they get the chance, because they don't feel like they live in a world of feast-or-famine.
And I would argue that, to people without self-control or self-discipline, there is never 'enough'.

How do you define 'enough'? Isn't 'enough' entirely up to the individual? There are families in Africa who have 'enough', yet never will have as much as poor families in America who don't have 'enough'. 'Enough' is a state of mind as well as a state of the body. If your theory were correct, Americans would never gorge themselves because they all have 'enough'.

Can you provide some examples of your observations in action?

Novan Leon said:
Cheeze_Pavilion said:
A holodeck would be water to our desires, not fuel. The 'reward every time, whenever you need it' mechanism would build that feeling of security, not stoke the flames of desire.
In reality, this kind of indulgence would only breed discontent. The holodeck would become 'boring' and something else would take it's place as the next great thing.
Again, I totally disagree. You're basing that off of watching what happens when people get 'more' of something, not when people get 'enough'. A holodeck would maybe start as an indulgence, but, when people realize it's not going anywhere, it would become more of a safety net.

There's a huge difference between indulging your desires, and building a safety net you can depend on to keep you from experiencing want.[/quote]The problem with using terms like 'enough' and 'more' is that they are too subjective. It makes it difficult to debate.
 

Trulock

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The all sensory virtual reality/holodeck experience will become an alternate reality. Even if we are not self sustainable most people will be able to create intellectual property while plugged into one of the many alternate realities available.

Creating content or even your own alternate reality will be where the fame/money/power will be.
Real life will only be one of the many realities in which you can decide to exist.

Robots will slowly but surely make any work that is not IP obsolete for the average person out there. Where will they spend MOST of their time? In a overcrowded world or in a alternate reality where all their desires are satisfied, including their desire to feel like a somebody. Current MMO's are pathetic, but they show a strong desire in the average person to be something they know they will never be in real life.

And once it get so real that you senses can't distinguish it will be able to fulfill our needs just as well as real life. There will always be a feeling of dissatisfaction, like in real life. Its this feeling that pushes us forward and compels us to try to make the world even more than it already is. But that will only serve to reinforce those alternate realities as your own instead of dispelling them.

I strongly believe that unless there is a holocaust that this will be the future that awaits us.
 

Novan Leon

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Cheeze_Pavilion said:
The term 'enough' isn't subjective *to we the observer*--it just varies, as you pointed out, from person to person. What I'm saying is that, whatever the individual definition of 'enough' is, a holodeck can meet it.
And that's exactly the problem. Your assuming that humans would never consume more than 'enough' than is reasonable. If my definition of 'enough' is so much that it begins to destroy my life, such as over-eating, becoming obsessed with sex, taking out my anger on people via virtual killing, etc., the holodeck would just serve to fuel this excess. I would eat and eat to my heart's content, until eating synthesized holo-food would seem boring to me (while at the same time I'm becoming a fat slob). Eventually, eating real food would become the novelty, the truly desirable commodity, and my excess would continue.

Without self-control or self-discipline, people will continue to excess and ultimately their own destruction.
 

General Ma Chao

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Unfortunately, at least in American culture, there is no such thing as "enough." "Keeping up with the Joneses" is the most destructive thing in our society. Having more than anyone else is an idiotic ego trip triggered by our lizard brain's want to stand out from the crowd and look powerful (thus attracting mates and cohorts). Our country could have a greater quality of life, if people understood how to put a cap on their "wants" and focused more on the real "needs" of society.
 

Novan Leon

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General Ma Chao said:
Unfortunately, at least in American culture, there is no such thing as "enough." "Keeping up with the Joneses" is the most destructive thing in our society. Having more than anyone else is an idiotic ego trip triggered by our lizard brain's want to stand out from the crowd and look powerful (thus attracting mates and cohorts). Our country could have a greater quality of life, if people understood how to put a cap on their "wants" and focused more on the real "needs" of society.
This kind of behavior isn't just present in American culture, American's just happen to be the most prosperous people in the world right now, so this aspect of human nature is exagerated.