How Intuitive Does A Game Have to Be?

[Yahtzee Croshaw]

How Intuitive Does A Game Have to Be?

At what point does giving the player the freedom to find things out for themselves become being needlessly obtuse? I bring it up because of the secrets in Cave Story.

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[Thaluikhain]

I prefer working things out for myself, but hate getting stuck on things, gets frustrating very quickly, and then I use a walkthrough.

 

[Callate]

If a game is going to doom you, I'd much rather it do so by your choices than by your ignorance. "The Internet is right there" is a poor excuse; we're all relying on the good will of OCD-afflicted FAQ writers rather than the craft of the game designers. If a significant portion of a game is only achieved through a nigh-impossible counter-intuitive polka dance that we'd only know the existence of through reading someone else's flowchart, there really isn't a whole lot of difference between playing and watching a playthrough on Youtube; we're experiencing the game like machines, not like people.

I got one of the standard endings of Cave Story long ago; I'm not going to replay it. It's not a short game.

 

[flying_whimsy]

I prefer games that're more intuitive or logic based like portal when it comes to in-game puzzles; I hate when a game takes the cheap approach and basically punishes me for trying to do it on my own. It's even worse for super long games like rpgs: I remember getting really pissed at Final Fantasy XII for locking away the best weapons in the game if you opened any of like 3 or 4 chests that are in no way different to other ones throughout the course of the game. Talk about a counter intuitive dick move.

For water cooler discussion I prefer things where individual experiences tend to vary enough to merit discussion like Deus Ex or Skyrim and similar open world games. How did someone get by a certain boss, what did they do with a certain faction, or even what was your favorite bug?

In Skyrim I still haven't had anything that's beaten Yahtzee's hovering-ground lady.

 

[Thanatos2k]

I really dislike Guide Dang It ( http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/GuideDangIt ) elements of games, but I'm more acceptable of them if they aren't permanently missable.

If they are, screw you.

 

[PuppetMaster]

I like situations like the Hitman: Blood Money theatre level; the "true" solution seems simple but there's a lot of chances for mistakes between stealing a maintenance man's clothes and firing a single shot with an antique pistol from the scaffolding (or if you're really insane, swapping the actor's pistol with the real one)
There's no penalty for simply killing everyone between you and the target except the standard you hold yourself to and a newspaper article about either a massacre or a mysterious tragedy

 

[Yahtzee Croshaw]

Reminds me of the stupid zodiark spear quest in FF12.

 

[shirkbot]

I think there are 4 basic levels of intuitive: Intuitive, Counter-Intuitive, Obtuse and Unreasonable.

Dark Souls is (as far as I can remember) a mixture of intuitive and counter-intuitive, which is wonderful because everything can be figured out by doing the logical thing or its inverse.
Hotel Dusk was obtuse. For example there is a puzzle that requires you to dust a pen for fingerprints. To remove the excess dust you

Spoiler

blow into the microphone

. This was never mentioned previously, nor would anyone have a reason to believe it was even possible, but it could at least be attempted.
Braid is Unreasonable. The Secret Stars required for the best ending are so secret that they are never mentioned in the game whatsoever, and to get the complete set you need to wait for 2 hours in one level for a cloud to move into position. Even if you've somehow worked out that the Secret Stars exist, the cloud moves so slowly that it's practically immobile, and there is no way a player is going to hang out in one level for that long since most can be beaten in under 15 minutes.

 

[Maphysto]

Dark Soul's unintuitive-ness doesn't come from gameplay or exploration.

It comes from it not fucking explaining how any of the stats or upgrades work, and not giving you an option to respec after you've critically hobbled your character with 40 Resistance and a +5 Raw Mace.

Like, it's cool that they didn't throw in some hand-holding tutorial or something, but just put a little blurb on the goddamn level up screen that says what each stat does, instead of a bunch of arcane-looking numbers and percentages next to icons I can barely even see much less make out what they're supposed to represent.

If I have to spend three hours on the wiki before I understand enough about the game to build a character capable of making it to the final boss, that's bad design.

 

[Neurotic Void Melody]

Bloodborne had that trolling lift under-floor. Has no one tried rolling under the lift by grand cathederal? There were no visual clues to suggest it was a false floor. Just two notes on the real floor when I played: one telling me there was a secret and the other telling me it was an illusion.

Well, a person like me cannot just walk away not knowing. So I rolling into, through...and down to my obscured death. My very next choice of action was to leave a note hastily denouncing everything there as disgusting lies. - you're welcome, future bloodborners.

 

[Evonisia]

Dark Soul's unintuitive-ness doesn't come from gameplay or exploration.

It comes from it not fucking explaining how any of the stats or upgrades work, and not giving you an option to respec after you've critically hobbled your character with 40 Resistance and a +5 Raw Mace.

Like, it's cool that they didn't throw in some hand-holding tutorial or something, but just put a little blurb on the goddamn level up screen that says what each stat does, instead of a bunch of arcane-looking numbers and percentages next to icons I can barely even see much less make out what they're supposed to represent.

If I have to spend three hours on the wiki before I understand enough about the game to build a character capable of making it to the final boss, that's bad design.

Came to basically post this.

The amount of defence for Dark Souls in the article is probably more damning than any judgement of Dark Souls could be when it comes to its level of intuitive design.

 

[kimiyoribaka]

I think it's worth noting that the pit example Yahtzee keeps using had a conspicuous mark on the floor showing the player which pixel to jump from. That mark was the entire reason why I did skip the jetpack the first time, which results in a better jetpack later even if you don't go for the secret ending.

 

[vallorn]

the right level of foaming paranoia.

Mr Croshaw, if you think that Dark Souls taught me how to be a cautious, paranoid nutter in games you would be wrong, I main Medic in TF2 and after a few weeks of that you become ingrained to the core with a sensation of infinite paranoia for snipers, spies and the occasional marauding Pyro or random crit sticky. However, being perpetually paranoid of corners and what was behind me did protect me from Miyazaki's monster closets and (most of) the traps in Sen's Funhouse.

 

[Darth_Payn]

I think there are 4 basic levels of intuitive: Intuitive, Counter-Intuitive, Obtuse and Unreasonable.

Dark Souls is (as far as I can remember) a mixture of intuitive and counter-intuitive, which is wonderful because everything can be figured out by doing the logical thing or its inverse.
Hotel Dusk was obtuse. For example there is a puzzle that requires you to dust a pen for fingerprints. To remove the excess dust you

Spoiler

blow into the microphone

. This was never mentioned previously, nor would anyone have a reason to believe it was even possible, but it could at least be attempted.
Braid is Unreasonable. The Secret Stars required for the best ending are so secret that they are never mentioned in the game whatsoever, and to get the complete set you need to wait for 2 hours in one level for a cloud to move into position. Even if you've somehow worked out that the Secret Stars exist, the cloud moves so slowly that it's practically immobile, and there is no way a player is going to hang out in one level for that long since most can be beaten in under 15 minutes.

I remember this really funny video I found on YouTube, with the guy from Braid trying (and hilariously failing) to explain to Mario how his game works, and being such huge hipster douchebag about. He was all like "It's a SUBVERSION of- Ugh. You wouldn't get it."

 

[isdestroyer]

I prefer games that present the obstacles, and empowers the player to overcome those obstacles with the game mechanics. An example would be either Dark Souls, or Super Metroid. Both games present obstacles, and both games empower the player to overcome them by design. Some sections may be gated until you acquire the right power up, but that power up is good for more than just getting through a specific gate. It allows you to overcome multiple types of obstacles.

 

[FPLOON]

Spoiler: I think this song explains how I feel about intuitive game design in general...

Other than that, fuck any RNG-based secret shit! That shit's never fun even when it is fun...

 

[Kenjitsuka]

CHECK DIS OUT!!!

If you pick the third option "Birthday Cake" and defend it on the forums 77 posts in a row, then type the URL in backwards you are awarded with a SWEET secret Forum Badge!

 

[FoolKiller]

For me, its all about whether or not the puzzle is malleable enough to be solved without first finding all the clues. There were things that I got stuck on and its because I tried to implement the correct solution without finding the last few clues. And it won't allow me. Then later on when I've found the remaining clues I could do it but didn't go back because I thought that I was wrong and didn't know that I had to find the clues to be right.

I also hate Batman riddler trophies. Not because I'm not good enough to solve them, but the whole notion of needing the correct upgrades to solve them so I stand there trying for 20 minutes is annoying. I get that the open world concept means there are puzzles I have to go back to but its annoying because I hate going to a puzzle and wasting time. Especially when there are 400 of them

 

[-Dragmire-]

I think there are 4 basic levels of intuitive: Intuitive, Counter-Intuitive, Obtuse and Unreasonable.

Dark Souls is (as far as I can remember) a mixture of intuitive and counter-intuitive, which is wonderful because everything can be figured out by doing the logical thing or its inverse.
Hotel Dusk was obtuse. For example there is a puzzle that requires you to dust a pen for fingerprints. To remove the excess dust you

Spoiler

blow into the microphone

. This was never mentioned previously, nor would anyone have a reason to believe it was even possible, but it could at least be attempted.
Braid is Unreasonable. The Secret Stars required for the best ending are so secret that they are never mentioned in the game whatsoever, and to get the complete set you need to wait for 2 hours in one level for a cloud to move into position. Even if you've somehow worked out that the Secret Stars exist, the cloud moves so slowly that it's practically immobile, and there is no way a player is going to hang out in one level for that long since most can be beaten in under 15 minutes.

I remember this really funny video I found on YouTube, with the guy from Braid trying (and hilariously failing) to explain to Mario how his game works, and being such huge hipster douchebag about. He was all like "It's a SUBVERSION of- Ugh. You wouldn't get it."

That's a Dorkly vid.

http://www.dorkly.com/video/30941/dorkly-bits-mario-is-too-mainstream