137: Conan's B-list Problem - And Ours

Ray Huling

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Conan's B-list Problem - And Ours

"Just about all game developers take their inspiration from B-list entertainment, the rank into which Conan falls. Amazingly, none of them seems to know why audiences love - not just like - Aliens or Star Wars or The X-Men. Developers tear off the skin of their source material but leave the flesh intact.

"What makes B-grade entertainment so enjoyable doesn't amount to a collection of explosions, semi-naked women and monsters rendered in eye-rending detail. No, a searching intelligence draws all these elements together, making them both fun and compelling. Behind every great pulp character stands a frustrated artist who tells us something important about the world, but has only swords and sorcery or lasers and lingerie at his disposal to do it."


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Feb 13, 2008
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AFAICR, Robert E Howards Conan was a Warrior King that was more a Thief than a Barbarian; it was only Snorezenegger that tranformed him into Muscle Man.

Didn't people learn from SW:G's remake? The heart of a good story is a struggle to become a hero; not 'Here's a Hero Skin, now go kill me X rats'.

The way Conan says "Dog" sounds more like Groo.
 

ArchAnemone

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Nice article, I enjoyed it. I agree: it's about time for games to be more than just games. I don't think it's required for every game, but more would be nice.
 

PedroSteckecilo

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Feb 7, 2008
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Conan was plenty warrior, but as soon as I heard that the game would have you collecting "magic" items I was done. Conan does not collect "magic" items, "magic" is something practiced by evil old men who like sacrificing porny slave girls, not by Conan.
 

L.B. Jeffries

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A rebuttal of sorts, the game had more merit than you give it credit:

http://www.popmatters.com/pm/multimedia/reviews/50803/conan/
 

Narrator

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L.B. Jeffries said:
A rebuttal of sorts, the game had more merit than you give it credit:

http://www.popmatters.com/pm/multimedia/reviews/50803/conan/
I would politely disagree: That PopMatters article is difficult to imagine as a rebuttal (even as a rebuttal "of sorts"), as their clothing-the-barbarian theory is rather shoehorned, and the hypothesis as a whole is most certainly written with less cohesion and clarity of thought than Ray Huling's article here in The Escapist.

I congratulate PopMatters for trying to make something out of nothing (it ain't easy); but ultimately, they accomplished little more than that. Nothing wrong with a proactive imagination (mining for those mush-mouthed metaphors they came up with), but at least Huling's article looks at the real-world intent of Nihilistic, the intent of Robert E. Howard, and the intent of the Conan property that's emerged post-Howard.

I'm praying that Funcom's Age of Conan: Hyborian Adventures MMO doesn't succumb to the same laziness, and I hope it looks into the layered and elusive complexities drawn into a character like Conan, rather than boiling the man down into a catchphrase-looping reduction.
 

L.B. Jeffries

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Narrator said:
L.B. Jeffries said:
A rebuttal of sorts, the game had more merit than you give it credit:

http://www.popmatters.com/pm/multimedia/reviews/50803/conan/
I would politely disagree: That PopMatters article is difficult to imagine as a rebuttal (even as a rebuttal "of sorts"), as their clothing-the-barbarian theory is rather shoehorned, and the hypothesis as a whole is most certainly written with less cohesion and clarity of thought than Ray Huling's article here in The Escapist.

I congratulate PopMatters for trying to make something out of nothing (it ain't easy); but ultimately, they accomplished little more than that. Nothing wrong with a proactive imagination (mining for those mush-mouthed metaphors they came up with), but at least Huling's article looks at the real-world intent of Nihilistic, the intent of Robert E. Howard, and the intent of the Conan property that's emerged post-Howard.
Fair enough, I've never played the game and Huling's essay (which was excellent, btw) reminded me of the piece. I'm a popmatters fan, obviously, and it just seemed pertinent to throw out a link of someone who got more out of the game than Huling for the sake of discussion.

As for shoehorning and mush-mouthing...I have to disagree. Both you and Huling seem to expect game designers to start making artistic games out of the blue, or barring that games that are at least well written within their source material. But if there isn't a critical audience that is both praising the artistic elements of a game AND willing to let them be superior in merit to other parts of the game...why should a game designer ever bother to make art? Why shouldn't they just focus all their energy on multi-player, graphics, and thinking up Xbox achievements?

Which came first? The gamer who expected artistic games or the artistic game? I concede it's a chicken v. egg scenario, but for my money I'm going to bet on the chicken.
 

Surggical_Scar

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I agree wholeheartedly with this - gaming needs to not just probe the realm of expression and intellectual challenge, but charge in headlong and do someting crazy.

Admittedly, some of these tend to lack financial success, just look at Psychonauts and Giants: Citizen Kabuto. Both were incredibly interesting, fun and imaginative games, but lacked the financial success over, say, Shoot Them In The Crotch III: This Time They're Slighty Less Pixellated.

One notable exception is Bioshock, drawing from some really interesting literary and philosophical sources, it also delivered in gameplay and value for money (overall, don't start bashing my opinion of this).

So, what to say? We can push for more challenging and engrossing styles, plots and characters, but if it doesn't bring in the readies, you won't get past the front door. We need to take baby steps into new territory, not giant, blind leaps.

(Also, as a student scriptwriter, I have a serious intrest in this sort of discussion, as I really would love to move into game development.)
 

Narrator

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L.B. Jeffries said:
Fair enough, I've never played the game and Huling's essay (which was excellent, btw) reminded me of the piece. I'm a popmatters fan, obviously, and it just seemed pertinent to throw out a link of someone who got more out of the game than Huling for the sake of discussion.

As for shoehorning and mush-mouthing...I have to disagree. Both you and Huling seem to expect game designers to start making artistic games out of the blue, or barring that games that are at least well written within their source material. But if there isn't a critical audience that is both praising the artistic elements of a game AND willing to let them be superior in merit to other parts of the game...why should a game designer ever bother to make art? Why shouldn't they just focus all their energy on multi-player, graphics, and thinking up Xbox achievements?

Which came first? The gamer who expected artistic games or the artistic game? I concede it's a chicken v. egg scenario, but for my money I'm going to bet on the chicken.
(I am now going to secretly admit that, due to your link to that article, I've now added PopMatters to my bookmarks.)

I've been on the lookout for more sites that discuss video games as a cultural phenomenon, as opposed to a rehashing of instruction manuals passed off as "reviews," and that singular Conan article has -- despite my hasty criticism of it -- convinced me to go back. I've seen PopMatters quoted across various media, but I've never given it a fair shake.

So yeah. Thanks for broadening my horizons a bit.
 

REDPill357

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L.B. Jeffries said:
But if there isn't a critical audience that is both praising the artistic elements of a game AND willing to let them be superior in merit to other parts of the game...why should a game designer ever bother to make art?
Have you played Psychonauts? Different, weird art style, great dialog, crazy story, and good gameplay to round it out. You don't need to sacrifice art for gameplay, or vice versa. Another good example is TF2. A goofy, cartoony art style, and it manages to be one of the greatest online shooters ever, in my opinion.
 

L.B. Jeffries

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REDPill357 said:
Have you played Psychonauts? Different, weird art style, great dialog, crazy story, and good gameplay to round it out. You don't need to sacrifice art for gameplay, or vice versa. Another good example is TF2. A goofy, cartoony art style, and it manages to be one of the greatest online shooters ever, in my opinion.
'Psychonauts' is steadily climbing higher on the never-ending list of games I need to play. Right now, 'No More Heroes' is one of the most stunning and intelligent games I've ever played recently. After that, the list of games that I would call high art is vast and always expanding.
 

L.B. Jeffries

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Narrator said:
I've been on the lookout for more sites that discuss video games as a cultural phenomenon, as opposed to a rehashing of instruction manuals passed off as "reviews," and that singular Conan article has -- despite my hasty criticism of it -- convinced me to go back. I've seen PopMatters quoted across various media, but I've never given it a fair shake.

So yeah. Thanks for broadening my horizons a bit.
Naw man, you were probably right. Williams likes to go for deep critical analysis in his reviews and sometimes it doesn't work out. Check out his 'Assassin's Creed' run-down to really see some amazing stuff.

http://www.popmatters.com/pm/multimedia/reviews/52232/assassins-creed/

Take all this with a grain of salt too. I write for the website and will always sing their praises but I know they appreciate the shout out. The Escapist is easily the best video game magazine on the net but people are starting to take a cue from them.
 

General Ma Chao

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Am I the only one who thinks people are reading into this a little too much? I admit my experience with Conan is the two movies and the cartoon "Conan the Adventurer" but I still don't see why people are analyzing it so much.
Here's where I start talking about "lizard brains" again. Conan and so many other B-heroes are just ways for us to safely revel in boyish sex and violence fantasies. It doesn't matter how old and mature you get.
On some primitive level, it still resonates with you. And that's all right. Those shots of raw testosterone and adrenaline are better than all the drugs in the world in changing your mood. Every time I watch Fist of the North Star, I get that feeling every time I hear Kenshiro doing his iconic "ATATATATATA-WATAH!"
 

Ian Dorsch

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Nihilistic's Conan may not have captured the existential angst of Howard's Conan, but it did capture the pulp fiction excess of it. With style. Granted, it did not have a AAA coat of polish and there were some poor design decisions, but the core combat was brutally satisfying. I definitely felt like I got my $30 worth.
 

Smokescreen

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General Ma Chao said:
Am I the only one who thinks people are reading into this a little too much? I admit my experience with Conan is the two movies and the cartoon "Conan the Adventurer" but I still don't see why people are analyzing it so much.
Here's where I start talking about "lizard brains" again. Conan and so many other B-heroes are just ways for us to safely revel in boyish sex and violence fantasies. It doesn't matter how old and mature you get.
On some primitive level, it still resonates with you. And that's all right. Those shots of raw testosterone and adrenaline are better than all the drugs in the world in changing your mood. Every time I watch Fist of the North Star, I get that feeling every time I hear Kenshiro doing his iconic "ATATATATATA-WATAH!"
And it's perfectly acceptable to enjoy it on that level.

But when an idea carries for such a long time, with so many different people across age groups and even gender, then it's just as worthwhile to start asking 'what's going on here' and look at how that idea/piece of art/event effects us in a larger scope.
 

General Ma Chao

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Smokescreen said:
General Ma Chao said:
Am I the only one who thinks people are reading into this a little too much? I admit my experience with Conan is the two movies and the cartoon "Conan the Adventurer" but I still don't see why people are analyzing it so much.
Here's where I start talking about "lizard brains" again. Conan and so many other B-heroes are just ways for us to safely revel in boyish sex and violence fantasies. It doesn't matter how old and mature you get.
On some primitive level, it still resonates with you. And that's all right. Those shots of raw testosterone and adrenaline are better than all the drugs in the world in changing your mood. Every time I watch Fist of the North Star, I get that feeling every time I hear Kenshiro doing his iconic "ATATATATATA-WATAH!"
And it's perfectly acceptable to enjoy it on that level.

But when an idea carries for such a long time, with so many different people across age groups and even gender, then it's just as worthwhile to start asking 'what's going on here' and look at how that idea/piece of art/event effects us in a larger scope.
You know what, you're right. Now my interest is really piqued. What are some of the definitive must-read stories? I'm really interested now.
 

chris_torrence

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General Ma Chao said:
You know what, you're right. Now my interest is really piqued. What are some of the definitive must-read stories? I'm really interested now.
I would recommend picking up a copy of the three "definitive" collections:

The Coming of Conan the Cimmerian (Conan of Cimmeria, Book 1) [http://www.amazon.com/Coming-Conan-Cimmerian-Cimmeria-Book/dp/0345461517/ref=pd_bbs_2]
The Bloody Crown of Conan (Conan of Cimmeria, Book 2) [http://www.amazon.com/Bloody-Crown-Conan-Cimmeria-Book/dp/0345461525/ref=pd_bbs_sr_3]
The Conquering Sword of Conan (Conan of Cimmeria, Book 3) [http://www.amazon.com/Conquering-Sword-Conan-Cimmeria-Book/dp/0345461533/ref=sr_1_4]

As the review states: "Consider how far civilization had to advance to make this barbarism available to us."
What would Robert E. Howard say if he knew that you could click on a link [http://gutenberg.net.au/ebooks06/0600961h.html] and download his stories?
 

mrtomsmith

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Feb 23, 2008
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Hi! I'm the Tom Smith mentioned in the article. I was Creative Manager on this Conan.

Nice article. I'm a big fan of artistic games and love playing them. Using the REH Conan method and sneaking deep meaning into otherwise popular entertainment is a good concept that games like Bioshock exemplify well (as Surggical_Scar mentioned).

When I said that our game isn't a deep philosophical exploration of REH's themes, I wasn't saying that such a thing couldn't be done. Heck, I'd welcome it. But it wasn't the direction we took. For various reasons, we were just making a philosophically simple, fun game with a light touch of REH's themes on top.

The_root_of_all: REH's Conan was a little bit of everything - inexperienced thief, pirate in love, warlord, but always a barbarian at heart. But Groo, that's a B-list (C-list?) with some deep philosophical underpinnings. See, cheese dip is a metaphor for capitalist materialism, and...

LB/Narrator: Some of the themes PopMatters noticed were intentional. We did try to carry a little of REH's philosophy into it. Admittedly, that article finds more than we intended, at least from the discussions I was part of. But thanks for bringing it up.

General Ma Chao: Definitely go back to the REH stories. You'll be surprised. There really is a lot more depth there than in any subsequent version of Conan, in addition to some excellent action scenes and half-naked women. Those stories rock.

And for the record, I'm 'a' Creative Manager at THQ, not 'the' CM - there's one for every project or two.