A Dutch Company Says it Owns the Patent on No Man's Sky's Procedural Generation Algorithm

[ffronw]

A Dutch Company Says it Owns the Patent on No Man's Sky's Procedural Generation Algorithm

//cdn.themis-media.com/media/global/images/library/deriv/1337/1337467.jpgNo Man's Sky could be facing another legal battle - this time over the algorithm used in the game's procedural generation system.

No Man's Sky is getting closer to launching, but if an article in Dutch newspaper NeoGAF [http://www.telegraaf.nl/digitaal/games/26250451/__Ruzie_over_formule_super-game__.html] user, and concerns the procedural generation system used in the game.

Apparently the game uses something called the "Superformula," a mathmatical algorithm that was invented and patented by Johan Gielis, the Chief Research Officer of a company called Genicap. During an interview with Business Insider [http://www.businessinsider.com/no-man-sky-mathematical-science-formula-hello-games-2015-6?r=UK&IR=T], Hello Games co-founder Sean Murray described the game's procedural generation system, and confirmed that the game uses the so-called "Superformula."

The interview says, "When Murray and the rest of the team plugged the Superformula into the game, it worked. Things that didn't have natural variety all of a sudden took on varied but still possible shapes. It was what they needed, or at least a major part of it."

While there's no confirmation that the final game uses the "Superformula," or that the convoluted maze that is patent law would even apply, the De Telegraaf quotes an attorney who felt that it could be a problem.

Genicap spokesperson Jeroen Sparrow told the newspaper that "We don't want to stop the launch, but if the formula is used we'll need to have a talk." He also said that the company had not received a response to their attempts to contact Hello Games, and neither Sony nor Hello Games has spoken on the matter. However, it may be that rather than a court battle, Genicap will seek a dialogue and advice, as Sparrow said that his company is working on its own game and "it would be great if we could trade knowledge with Hello Games."

This could spell trouble for Hello Games, or it could be nothing more than background noise from a patent troll. We'll have to wait and see how it shakes out. Assuming no delays come from it, No Man's Sky is set to launch August 9 on PC and PS4.

Permalink

 

[Covarr]

The superformula is a relatively simple equation. Equations cannot be patented, at least under US law. What can, however, are implementations of said equations. This would absolutely come down to the code itself, and not simply whether it uses this equation, but whether the code to use it was copied.

P.S. Thanks

 

[Level 7 Dragon]

I didn't even know it is even possible to patent an algorithm.

I highly doubt they would attempt to sabotage the launch, probably would just ask for a small slice of the profits or a fixed ammount of money.

 

[Areloch]

I didn't even know it is even possible to patent an algorithm.

I highly doubt they would attempt to sabotage the launch, probably would just ask for a small slice of the profits or a fixed ammount of money.

You pretty much can't, though. At least you 'shouldn't' be able to.

What Are Abstract Ideas? Abstract ideas are concepts like pure mathematics and algorithms. You cannot patent a formula. However, you can patent an application of that formula. Thus, while you cannot patent a mathematical formula that produces nonrepeating patterns, you can patent paper products that use that formula to prevent rolls of paper from sticking together.

http://www.legalmatch.com/law-library/article/what-cant-be-patented.html

So if they try to pursue this in the US in court, they're going to have a hard time with this.

Hopefully they stick with what they say about just wanting details of implementation so they can work on their own game.

 

[Cowabungaa]

As a Dutch person I just have to ask; what on Earth is that spelling of "Telegraaf." Because it sure ain't "Telegrhaff."

Anyway, as they didn't just dive into a lawsuit I assume that they're reasonable people. I hope.

 

[Level 7 Dragon]

I didn't even know it is even possible to patent an algorithm.

I highly doubt they would attempt to sabotage the launch, probably would just ask for a small slice of the profits or a fixed ammount of money.

You pretty much can't, though. At least you 'shouldn't' be able to.

What Are Abstract Ideas? Abstract ideas are concepts like pure mathematics and algorithms. You cannot patent a formula. However, you can patent an application of that formula. Thus, while you cannot patent a mathematical formula that produces nonrepeating patterns, you can patent paper products that use that formula to prevent rolls of paper from sticking together.

http://www.legalmatch.com/law-library/article/what-cant-be-patented.html

So if they try to pursue this in the US in court, they're going to have a hard time with this.

Hopefully they stick with what they say about just wanting details of implementation so they can work on their own game.

Software patents has always been a legal grey area. The EU permits patents on algorithms and software, which is quite a controversial practice.

The person claiming infingement came across as someone who wants more of a dialog rather than a direct legal despute.

 

[Areloch]

I didn't even know it is even possible to patent an algorithm.

I highly doubt they would attempt to sabotage the launch, probably would just ask for a small slice of the profits or a fixed ammount of money.

You pretty much can't, though. At least you 'shouldn't' be able to.

What Are Abstract Ideas? Abstract ideas are concepts like pure mathematics and algorithms. You cannot patent a formula. However, you can patent an application of that formula. Thus, while you cannot patent a mathematical formula that produces nonrepeating patterns, you can patent paper products that use that formula to prevent rolls of paper from sticking together.

http://www.legalmatch.com/law-library/article/what-cant-be-patented.html

So if they try to pursue this in the US in court, they're going to have a hard time with this.

Hopefully they stick with what they say about just wanting details of implementation so they can work on their own game.

Software patents has always been a legal grey area. The EU permits patents on algorithms and software, which is quite a controversial practice.

The person claiming infingement came across as someone who wants more of a dialog rather than a direct legal despute.

Yeah, in this case, it sounds a lot less like someone looking for a free payday, so hopefully that's how the whole thing pans out.

 

[Lightknight]

I didn't even know it is even possible to patent an algorithm.

I highly doubt they would attempt to sabotage the launch, probably would just ask for a small slice of the profits or a fixed ammount of money.

You pretty much can't, though. At least you 'shouldn't' be able to.

What Are Abstract Ideas? Abstract ideas are concepts like pure mathematics and algorithms. You cannot patent a formula. However, you can patent an application of that formula. Thus, while you cannot patent a mathematical formula that produces nonrepeating patterns, you can patent paper products that use that formula to prevent rolls of paper from sticking together.

http://www.legalmatch.com/law-library/article/what-cant-be-patented.html

So if they try to pursue this in the US in court, they're going to have a hard time with this.

Hopefully they stick with what they say about just wanting details of implementation so they can work on their own game.

Software patents has always been a legal grey area. The EU permits patents on algorithms and software, which is quite a controversial practice.

The person claiming infingement came across as someone who wants more of a dialog rather than a direct legal despute.

Yeah, in this case, it sounds a lot less like someone looking for a free payday, so hopefully that's how the whole thing pans out.

There are only two reasons to bring it up at all:

1. Free Payday.
2. Protect your copyright for future endeavors in case someone in an actual competitive field tries to copy it.

People don't realize that when major companies like Disney seem to be enforcing copyright law against little guys that they are actually just keeping their copyright active by challenging all uses they find (even fair use, it seems). Failing to defend your copyright can actually lose you future exclusivity to it.

If the parent company isn't a patent troll and also isn't in a competing market then this conversation is just necessary for reason #2.

I wonder if the company could just not sell their game in Europe then, if the US doesn't allow algorithm/formula copyrighting. I cannot imagine how shitty the world would be if people couldn't even use Einstein's E=mc^2 because he patented it or something.

 

[Vanished]

According to the wiki they're based in Guildford, England. Looks like the EU laws will apply in this situation.

 

[Lightknight]

According to the wiki they're based in Guildford, England. Looks like the EU laws will apply in this situation.

Does it apply if they don't sell their game in Europe?

 

[Vanished]

According to the wiki they're based in Guildford, England. Looks like the EU laws will apply in this situation.

Does it apply if they don't sell their game in Europe?

Honestly don't know. I would assume you're put under the laws of where your company is based and then that extends to each country your product is sold/distributed through, but we all know how good assumptions are.

 

[ffronw]

As a Dutch person I just have to ask; what on Earth is that spelling of "Telegraaf." Because it sure ain't "Telegrhaff."

Anyway, as they didn't just dive into a lawsuit I assume that they're reasonable people. I hope.

That is what happens when your fingers betray you. Thanks for the heads up.

 

[-Dragmire-]

I didn't even know it is even possible to patent an algorithm.

I highly doubt they would attempt to sabotage the launch, probably would just ask for a small slice of the profits or a fixed ammount of money.

You pretty much can't, though. At least you 'shouldn't' be able to.

What Are Abstract Ideas? Abstract ideas are concepts like pure mathematics and algorithms. You cannot patent a formula. However, you can patent an application of that formula. Thus, while you cannot patent a mathematical formula that produces nonrepeating patterns, you can patent paper products that use that formula to prevent rolls of paper from sticking together.

http://www.legalmatch.com/law-library/article/what-cant-be-patented.html

So if they try to pursue this in the US in court, they're going to have a hard time with this.

Hopefully they stick with what they say about just wanting details of implementation so they can work on their own game.

Software patents has always been a legal grey area. The EU permits patents on algorithms and software, which is quite a controversial practice.

The person claiming infingement came across as someone who wants more of a dialog rather than a direct legal despute.

Yeah, in this case, it sounds a lot less like someone looking for a free payday, so hopefully that's how the whole thing pans out.

There are only two reasons to bring it up at all:

1. Free Payday.
2. Protect your copyright for future endeavors in case someone in an actual competitive field tries to copy it.

People don't realize that when major companies like Disney seem to be enforcing copyright law against little guys that they are actually just keeping their copyright active by challenging all uses they find (even fair use, it seems). Failing to defend your copyright can actually lose you future exclusivity to it.

If the parent company isn't a patent troll and also isn't in a competing market then this conversation is just necessary for reason #2.

I wonder if the company could just not sell their game in Europe then, if the US doesn't allow algorithm/formula copyrighting. I cannot imagine how shitty the world would be if people couldn't even use Einstein's E=mc^2 because he patented it or something.

I'm pretty sure that copyright, trademark and patent laws are pretty different. I don't think the copyright stuff that you are talking about applies to this patent issue.

 

[Areloch]

I didn't even know it is even possible to patent an algorithm.

I highly doubt they would attempt to sabotage the launch, probably would just ask for a small slice of the profits or a fixed ammount of money.

You pretty much can't, though. At least you 'shouldn't' be able to.

What Are Abstract Ideas? Abstract ideas are concepts like pure mathematics and algorithms. You cannot patent a formula. However, you can patent an application of that formula. Thus, while you cannot patent a mathematical formula that produces nonrepeating patterns, you can patent paper products that use that formula to prevent rolls of paper from sticking together.

http://www.legalmatch.com/law-library/article/what-cant-be-patented.html

So if they try to pursue this in the US in court, they're going to have a hard time with this.

Hopefully they stick with what they say about just wanting details of implementation so they can work on their own game.

Software patents has always been a legal grey area. The EU permits patents on algorithms and software, which is quite a controversial practice.

The person claiming infingement came across as someone who wants more of a dialog rather than a direct legal despute.

Yeah, in this case, it sounds a lot less like someone looking for a free payday, so hopefully that's how the whole thing pans out.

There are only two reasons to bring it up at all:

1. Free Payday.
2. Protect your copyright for future endeavors in case someone in an actual competitive field tries to copy it.

People don't realize that when major companies like Disney seem to be enforcing copyright law against little guys that they are actually just keeping their copyright active by challenging all uses they find (even fair use, it seems). Failing to defend your copyright can actually lose you future exclusivity to it.

If the parent company isn't a patent troll and also isn't in a competing market then this conversation is just necessary for reason #2.

I wonder if the company could just not sell their game in Europe then, if the US doesn't allow algorithm/formula copyrighting. I cannot imagine how shitty the world would be if people couldn't even use Einstein's E=mc^2 because he patented it or something.

You're thinking of trademarks. Trademarks can see dilution of brand, making enforcing them later impossible, but that's not the case for copyright.

Copyright is enforced by Disney because they don't want anyone else to make money off their IP.

According to the wiki they're based in Guildford, England. Looks like the EU laws will apply in this situation.

Does it apply if they don't sell their game in Europe?

Honestly don't know. I would assume you're put under the laws of where your company is based and then that extends to each country your product is sold/distributed through, but we all know how good assumptions are.

Generally, international law only applies if you have a legal entity established in said country. So you can sell to the people in France and not be directly subject to French law, but if you set up a headquarters there, then you would be subject to their laws.

So while they could attempt to force extradition(the UK and US do do that, after all), something as minor as this is exceedingly unlikely to see it go through.

If they're trying to legally bully them(and presuming that the devs of NMS don't have a legal establishment in the UK or in the EU) then it's pretty much just huffing.

Unless the patent was filed in the US, then it could apply(even though as covered prior, algorithms aren't really considered patentable).

Anywho, hopefully it's legitimately just them going 'hey, lets work together to make even better procedural worlds', but if it turns to a legal issue, I don't think it'll pan out well for the patent owners, and it'll still suck for the NMS devs due to having to waste money on legal fees.

 

[Lightspeaker]

Apparently the game uses something called the "Superformula," a mathmatical algorithm that was invented and patented by Johan Gielis, the Chief Research Officer of a company called Genicap.

...

This could spell trouble for Hello Games, or it could be nothing more than background noise from a patent troll.

Patent troll is popularly used to refer a company who buys up patents and pretty much exists solely to hold those patents and prosecute people for using them without actually making anything themselves or making use of said patents. Often extrapolating from those patents to sue far beyond the importance or value of the patent or its contribution to what it is suing over.

If this company really DID develop this formula (or at least if the CRO developed this formula under the banner of the company) and it has been 'stolen' and then used as the entire basis of the game (i.e. the procedural generation engine) then frankly its extremely unfair to use the term "patent troll" anywhere near them. Because it really is their invention, something they have produced as a company and something they are apparently using to develop further technologies (based on a quick glance at their website). Which is about as far from a mere 'patent troll' as you can get.


Nice to see a company being reasonable over patents for once though.

 

[Groenteman]

Pff, its De Telegraaf. They are one of those papers that doesn't let things like truth and integrity get in the way of making money.

If this company really DID develop this formula (or at least if the CRO developed this formula under the banner of the company) and it has been 'stolen' and then used as the entire basis of the game (i.e. the procedural generation engine) then frankly its extremely unfair to use the term "patent troll" anywhere near them. Because it really is their invention, something they have produced as a company and something they are apparently using to develop further technologies (based on a quick glance at their website). Which is about as far from a mere 'patent troll' as you can get.


Nice to see a company being reasonable over patents for once though.

This is... not strictly true. There are some companies out there that try to thrive by sueing the competition to death with idiotic patents. Nvidea and Apple are examples of this.

 

[Lightspeaker]

This is... not strictly true. There are some companies out there that try to thrive by sueing the competition to death with idiotic patents. Nvidea and Apple are examples of this.

Something which is covered by me saying:
"Often extrapolating from those patents to sue far beyond the importance or value of the patent or its contribution to what it is suing over."

But if you think that then please go ahead and point out how this company, whose primary product appears to be this specific formula (based on their website a huge part of their business seems to be based around this), is doing this.

If someone was making a living selling art and their art was pinched and used without permission to provide the art assets for a game then they'd have every right to seek redress. Why is it different for a company that seemingly invented the formula that is the basis for the entire procedural generation system in No Man's Sky?

 

[Remus]

This is only being brought up now because the game launches in 19 days. Preorders are being made and they want a piece of the pie. If I'm wrong and the expectation is to allow use of the formula for future endeavors, then that's great. But with the launch soon, I don't think I am.

 

[FalloutJack]

Wow, I'm INB4 Nigel Powers reference. Allow me.


That being said, an algorhythm? Gimme a break. That's like saying "I own part of the Unreal Engine!".

 

[Baresark]

The bastard actually copyrighted implementation (ie implementing the equation to make certain shapes, patters, waveforms, etc). But it really comes down to how UK courts treat it. The upside is that they outright stated they are not interested in stopping the release of the game.